Performing the Katas by Iain Abernethy

[Tez3]

Tez,

As explained in my PM, I am not suggesting that the practice of Bunkai withinKarate Kata is in anyway wrong or misguided, my point is that as a system -Wado-ryu does not utilise the process of Bunkai.

This statement is not meant to be glib, it is borne out over 25 years trainingin mainstream Japanese Wado and I can vouch for the fact that it doesn't formpart of its pedagogy.

Why? Maybe Otsuka never learnt bunkai? More probable that he saw the"omote" of the kata and realised that it would be more useful as vehicleto assist in the transmission of key principles within in his vision ofWado-ryu as a whole?

As you said in a previous post, Wado has a lot of depth. You can't take part ofit away and expect it still to work like Wado.

Does Wado have take downs, arm bars, throws, locks and holds etc.? It sure doesa plenty!!! However the methodology involved in realising this does not involvethe process of disassembling solo kata to a point where it moves away from theexternal form of the Kata. This is where our paired kata (Kihon Kumite, Idori,Tanto-dori etc.) come in to play.
This brings me to your next question… What is Wado Ryu?
Well, many (if not most) of the paired kata mentionedabove – are pretty much straight out of Shindo Yoshin Ryu which is notsurprising considering Otsuka’s pedigree in it.
So really I suppose what I mean to say about the subjectof the thread is that although Iain may be utilising Wado kata he is not “doing”Wado-ryu imo.
To be fair to him though – he is not saying that he is.
Sojobo

To be honest I'm now interested in carrying on this conversation as you have in your PM said that we are just taking pops at each other and I'm disrespecting Iain.

Your non use of Bunkai is fine but there's still a good many instructors and students who do use Bunkai in Wado Ryu. To not use Bunkai is different from saying it's not there.

You've missed my point when I asked you what Wado is, you stated Bunkai is fine in karate, but not Wado Ryu hence you are saying Wado Ryu isn't karate.

Anyway, as my points are considered being argumentative rather than searching for information, I'll leave the thread to your greater wisdom, I'm sorry that all I have learned is that so many people are considered 'wrong'.

 

[Sojobo]

Erm Tez,

Who is disrespecting Iain?

I don't think I have said anything disrespectful - if I have I apologise.


Again I reiterate - I have no problem with what Iain is doing (I think its good), but the process of Bunkai isn't practiced in mainstream Wado groups.


I've given you the why's and wherefores as I understand it.

Sojobo

 

[Sojobo]

.. I'll leave the thread to your greater wisdom, I'm sorry that all I have learned is that so many people are considered 'wrong'.

Come on Tez... no need for that, is there?

Sojobo

 

[Tez3]

Sojobo, you said it was disappointing I went to others to 'reinforce my view', the thing is I don't have a view, I went 'to other's with greater knowledge than mine to find an explanation as it's puzzling to me to have been taught Bunkai in Wado and for you to say there is none in it. I was taught Bunkai by my first Wado Ryu instructors over 20 years ago, the chief instructor Patrick Scantlebury started training in 1971 in Wado Ryu under Tatsuo Suzuki then as an instructor under Toru Tokamizowa, the whole organisation does Bunkai in Wado Ryu, you are saying there is no Bunkai in Wado, yet some obviously think there is. The fact you don't use it is different from there being none in it.

 

[Sojobo]

Sojobo, you said it was disappointing I went to others to 'reinforce my view', the thing is I don't have a view, I went 'to other's with greater knowledge than mine to find an explanation as it's puzzling to me to have been taught Bunkai in Wado and for you to say there is none in it. I was taught Bunkai by my first Wado Ryu instructors over 20 years ago, the chief instructor Patrick Scantlebury started training in 1971 in Wado Ryu under Tatsuo Suzuki then as an instructor under Toru Tokamizowa, the whole organisation does Bunkai in Wado Ryu, you are saying there is no Bunkai in Wado, yet some obviously think there is. The fact you don't use it is different from there being none in it.

And it was disappointing Tez,

You took my comments and emailed them to Iain - you then pasted his reply.

If I wanted discussion with Ian on the matter (and we have had them in the past) I would have contacted him directly.

The whole point of discussion forums like this is for us to share our own personal views and experiences - not others.

Either way - I think this discussion has well and truly "jumped the shark", I've given you my experiences and evidenced that they are not privately held views.

I wish you luck with your training Tez.

Sojobo.

 

[TimoS]

Maybe Otsuka never learnt bunkai?

I have read part of an interview (?) of his grandson and at least according to him, Otsuka wasn't taught any applications to kata. I'll ask if the interview and/or quote is somewhere online.

 

[harlan]

If anyone is interested, the topic has been cross-posted at Ian's forum and is currently under discussion.

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/no-bunkai-wado-ryu-karate

 

[Sojobo]

If anyone is interested, the topic has been cross-posted at Ian's forum and is currently under discussion.

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/no-bunkai-wado-ryu-karate

Sleves rolled up... I may be some time

Sojobo

 

[Sojobo]

And... done.

Sojobo

 

[Chris Parker]

Are you freakin' kidding me?

However, the kanji is different, and why?

Many Karateka and/or Japanese Karate instructors of the distant past, did not want it to be associated with China.

From PR reasons (perhaps the rivalry with China) Japan had chose to use “Empty’

Read the article I linked. Here it is again, for you: http://www.isshinryu.nl/history/1936meeting.html

I am aware of Shorinji Kempo, Shorin ryu.. (as well as the swastika symbol used) not only making these styles associated with China, but going back to Indian (Indian) roots (with the symbol)

That said, some Karate styles had paid lineage-homeage to their roots.

I did not or never said "ALL" Japanese Karate systems kept a dis-association with China

Well, you seem to have missed the point of pretty much everything I said there...

*BOLD* you just proved my point...these are Japanese terms/reference...Badda Bing!

*underline* you proved by point again that they change it to mean empty....why?-to not associate it with China....Badda Bing!

What the hell, man? Every term that's been used (other than your insistence of "Tang") have been Japanese! And this started when Makalakumu gave the original term, referencing the Okinawan form, and the Chinese influence on Okinawan arts! You have been completely and singularly wrong for this entire thread, and no, the bold and the underlined do not support your point, as your point is beside what is stated there.

Give it up, yeah?

 

[K-man]

If anyone is interested, the topic has been cross-posted at Ian's forum and is currently under discussion.

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/no-bunkai-wado-ryu-karate

And to summarise Iain's reply, Wado did not compose their own kata. They brought it in from elsewhere. The fact that 'maybe' most Wado schools don't teach bunkai to those katas doesn't mean the bunkai is not there, inherent in the kata. It is there if you wish to go looking, but if you just want kata for competition or exercise, that's fine too. :asian:

 

[Sojobo]

And to summarise Iain's reply, Wado did not compose their own kata. They brought it in from elsewhere. The fact that 'maybe' most Wado schools don't teach bunkai to those katas doesn't mean the bunkai is not there, inherent in the kata. It is there if you wish to go looking, but if you just want kata for competition or exercise, that's fine too. :asian:

And to summarise my response -

I am not saying that in the Kata where Wado kata originated from Bunkai isn't there? I am saying that Wado, as a school, traditionally do not utilise the process of bunkai within its structure.

Sojobo

 

[K-man]

And to summarise my response -

I am not saying that in the Kata where Wado kata originated from Bunkai isn't there? I am saying that Wado, as a school, traditionally do not utilise the process of bunkai within its structure.

Sojobo

And, isn't that exactly what I posted? Some Wado schools teach bunkai and some don't. Yours doesn't, end of story. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Funakoshi learned from Itosu and Azato, NOT Matsumura


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"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

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Was Asato teaching for Matsumura 100% of the time, or did the old man come out to check on things? I've seen it claimed that Funakoshi was instructed by Matsumura as well. Do you have a reference that debunks this?

 

[Makalakumu]

So? Finding some things that are similar in two totally unrelated arts is not proof that one influenced the other. I can find some things in Tang Lang Kung-fu that are done almost exactly the same way that we do them in karate. All that proves is that there are only so many ways you can manipulate an opponent. Of course e.g. Jigen ryu may have influenced karate, but there isn't really any evidence of that, one way or another.


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

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If it is shown that the people who created the kata were awarded Menkyo Kaiden in Jigen Ryu and some the techniques in the kata resemble sets on Jigen Ryu's empty hand lists, wouldn't that provide support to the thesis that Jigen Ryu may have influenced karate? If the head of the current Jigen Ryu at the time of Mr. McCarthy's interview states that both arts may have influenced each other, doesn't that provide more support? The only thing that is missing are written documents, which happens to be the problem with nearly all research into karate. In the end, I think there is plenty of evidence to show that they are probably related, but there is no clear path to show the exact way they are related. All resemblance could be a coincidence, but I doubt that.

 

[TimoS]

If it is shown that the people who created the kata were awarded Menkyo Kaiden in Jigen Ryu

Yes, but here's the thing: for most kata, we don't know who created them. For example, in Seibukan we know that Ananku was created by Kyan sensei and Wanchin by Zenryo Shimabukuro sensei. The rest of our "core" kata, we don't know (at least I can't remember reading any uncontroversial evidence). Sure, there's theories and stories about them, but nobody really knows for sure

Edit: please note that I'm not saying that karate wasn't influenced by Jigen ryu and/or vice versa, I'm just saying that we don't know. Maybe it was, but to what extent? What was brought into karate? When? By who?


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TimoS]

Was Asato teaching for Matsumura 100% of the time, or did the old man come out to check on things?

To my understanding, Funakoshi himself in his books said that his teachers were Azato and Itosu, so you can't get much better source than that.


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tez3]

To be honest, this is where my attention wanders off, no disrespect to anyone but my interest is in 'does this techniques' work rather than where does it come from. I know how important it is to some to have the history etc of such things but I have little interest in it. I know it makes it a better art for some if they have as the anticedants but for me the training, the 'working' of it is better.

 

[Chris Parker]

And to summarise Iain's reply, Wado did not compose their own kata. They brought it in from elsewhere. The fact that 'maybe' most Wado schools don't teach bunkai to those katas doesn't mean the bunkai is not there, inherent in the kata. It is there if you wish to go looking, but if you just want kata for competition or exercise, that's fine too. :asian:

And to summarise my response -

I am not saying that in the Kata where Wado kata originated from Bunkai isn't there? I am saying that Wado, as a school, traditionally do not utilise the process of bunkai within its structure.

Sojobo

And, isn't that exactly what I posted? Some Wado schools teach bunkai and some don't. Yours doesn't, end of story. :asian:

Ah, guys...

Look, to be honest, I'd say you're both right... the difference really seems to be in the usage of terminology. And in that regard, I'd come down on Gary's side.

The big question seems to be the exact definition of "Bunkai". The common interpretation is that it's simply the application of the movements found in the kata, however that's not really what it means (as a process). Bunkai is the concept of taking the kata to pieces to discover the "hidden" aspects to the movements, the applications that aren't readily apparent (a block not being a block, but a joint lock or throw, for instance). The more "apparent" applications (a block is a block) are simply the applications, or explanations of the kata, which is terms Kaisetsu. As Wado Ryu has no real need of "hidden" grappling actions, being derived from Shotokan/Shorin Ryu karate and Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, the kata are explained by way of Kaisetsu, not Bunkai.

The problem is when the term Bunkai is used as a catch all for all applications from kata, which is I believe where the confusion is coming from. On the other forum, a member (Andy R) displayed this usage, when he asked his instructor about Bunkai in Wado, then questioned the instructor when an explanation of an action in a kata was mentioned. The instructor was displaying Kaisetsu, not Bunkai, which I believe is Gary's point.

Now, that isn't to say that you can't apply Bunkai (as it properly is) to the kata from Wado Ryu, there are certainly people who do so (Iain being one of them), but that isn't the same as there being Bunkai in Wado, just that some instructors use it.

So, in essence, Wado Ryu does not utilise Bunkai, as the term is properly used (but some instructors do), but there is Bunkai (in the common misinterpretation of the concept, meaning simply explanations and applications of the movements) taught.

Is that what we're all saying?

 

[Tez3]

Chris I think it's langauge that has been the problem all along, it was misunderstood when we said that there are grappling tecnhiques in the kata as us saying we are learning grappling by doing kata, it's been misunderstandings all along including it being thought I was looking to have others bolster my arguments when in fact I don't have any. For me it was simple, I'd been taught that there are techniques in kata which makes it more than just dancing for health or whatever some say it is, then I was told no, there is no techniques in Wado kata that's dealt with in other training used in that style.

If I turned round and said well all my instructors must have been rubbish then because they taught us the Bunkai that was passed on from their instructors who were trained by the founder and there's not supposed to be any Bunkai in it, what sort of person would I then be? To me the effectiveness of the techniques is what counts not the terminology not even it's history. If I'm faced by someone who is resisting me or who is threatening myself and/or colleagues I don't want to have to quote martial arts history at them, I'll save that for the journey to the nick!