Kata a Penetrating Look and Insight

[Uchinanchu]

Sure, there's no problem at all with looking at it that way; it's consistent with the idea that you're not the initiator of the fight. The problem with notions such as 'block', 'stance' and so on only arises when they're taken in a strictly literal sense.

For me the great revelation about these kinds of applications, when I first encountered all the exciting and innovative work of the neo-jutsu movement, as I think of it, was the way in which the techniques proposed (usually after a good deal of pressure testing and dojo 'experimentation') actually work in three dimensions. I'm bad at spatial relations; I have a hard time visualizing movements, rotations and so on in three dimensions. A lot of the kinds of applications that people like Abernethy, Burgar, Anslow and O'Neil have proposed look really economical and ingenious to me—like finding the shortest forced mate in a chess game—but it's uphill work for me to do the same kind of thing, because I lose track of how things are working in physical space. So I really appreciate the imaginative thinking that lets people look at certain movements in space and see in them these very effective combinations of controlling moves, strikes and throws.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on techniques being taken too literally at times. Maybe a better description for 'block' would be 'defensive counter', since what we refer to in english as being blocks, usually have several offensive and defensive applications (some of which are applied simultaniously).
A main point that I overlooked in mentioning earlier was that Funakoshi's supposed coined frase that "There is no first strike in karate", though fitting from a philosophical point in that karate is taught to be used for defense/protection, also has a practical point as well in concerns to application. Karate, especially the southern chinese influenced styles such as Goju and Uechi Ryu, focuses alot on minimizing damage to oneself while delivering maximum power to ones attacker. Now, what must be kept in mind is that when delivering a blow/strike/punch/kick of any sort, you are opening yourself up to your attacker's strikes/counters. The further a limb is extended out, the more structurally weak (and vulnerable) it becomes. It also leaves holes in your defense that can be exploited by your attacker. Now, to me, this is basic karate 101, that was taught to me from day one (in Goju Ryu), but I have also studied other styles in the past that never addressed this at all.
I also know exactly how you feel in regards to that 'uphill' battle. I myself can be quite a bit of a rock at times when it comes to figuring things out. Luckily for me, I have a great teacher that is more than happy to explain things to me...ouch. Only one way to really learn it and understand it, is to be on the receiving end of it. Again, ouch.
It's also always nice to learn others take/perspective on applications, so even though I might come off as a bit harsh and/or abbrupt at times, please try not to take offense...my character is a work in progress.
Yoroshiku

 

[boobishi]

 

[astrobiologist]

Ha ha ha! Boobishi's cartoons are excellent!

 

[boobishi]

Feel free to stop by www.oldmansboobishi.com there are a bunch there.

 

[astrobiologist]

Feel free to stop by www.oldmansboobishi.com there are a bunch there.

Very cool!

 

[SenseiRuss]

I'm with you and Exile on this.

Abernethy's take on kata and bunkai is amazing. As I said to one of my students, seeing Iain's views and techniques on this subject, it was like waking up from a 30-year coma — my shallow "understanding" of kata! All of Iain's takes on kata/bunkai aren't the final word, of course (have you checked out Vince Morris? — pretty interesting stuff, too), but Abernethy's teachings can only improve and make much more effective one's foundations. As a matter of fact, even when not practicing with a partner for the bunkai, I now find that my solo kata has more power, intent and focus.

There are times when I do a tai-chi-ish walk-through of my kata with meditative music, so I can also see the "secondary" benefits, for sure. But the primary understanding of kata , IMHO, have to be the bunkai as per Abernethy, Morris, et al.

Osu,
Russell

 

[K-man]

Another old thread but interesting to re-read. I miss Exile. I've just purchased another lot of Iain's DVDs. Even though we practise different styles, the principles he promotes transcend the style. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

For those Americans close to Chicago Iain will be there in April this year. very worth going to!

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/events/seminar-chicago-usa

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm with you and Exile on this.

Abernethy's take on kata and bunkai is amazing. As I said to one of my students, seeing Iain's views and techniques on this subject, it was like waking up from a 30-year coma — my shallow "understanding" of kata! All of Iain's takes on kata/bunkai aren't the final word, of course (have you checked out Vince Morris? — pretty interesting stuff, too), but Abernethy's teachings can only improve and make much more effective one's foundations. As a matter of fact, even when not practicing with a partner for the bunkai, I now find that my solo kata has more power, intent and focus.

There are times when I do a tai-chi-ish walk-through of my kata with meditative music, so I can also see the "secondary" benefits, for sure. But the primary understanding of kata , IMHO, have to be the bunkai as per Abernethy, Morris, et al.

Osu,
Russell

+1

 

[chinto]

Let me ask you something, h.

When the creator of modern linear Karate, Bushi Matsumura, was working in the service of the King of Okinawa as security director, chief of law enforcement and so on, he was sent to deal with a guy who was stealing food and other important items from people in one of the districts around Shuri. The perp turned out to be a shipwrecked Chinese sailor named Chinto, living 'rough', as the Brits say, in the area, who—astonishingly—fought Matsumura to a standstill. Matsumura was so impressed by Chinto's fighting abilities that he made a deal with him: teach me your combat system, all the good stuff, and I'll see that you get food and a lift home. He recorded the core of Chinto's techniques in the Chinto kata practiced by karateka to this day.

My question is, why do think Matsumura made up a whole kata recording the best of his formidable former antagonist's techniques? To give himself another way to avoid fighting???

you are correct there Exile, that is what kata does, teaches technique and doctrine, and footwork. Kata teaches you what you need to know from the system to use it in combat. the rest of the things it teaches are very much bonus type things by the originators way of thinking. Remember people at that time it was Life and Death in a fight! on Okinawa the normal way of deciding the winner of the fight was who was still breathing, even if it was only a while after the looser!

 

[chinto]

I would never get personal with anyone in these forums, if I offended you with my opinion, or the way that I took your words im very sorry. I look forward to more discussions with you, and I will always stay objective.





Matsumura was a practitioner of Goju ryu, Karate and he was consumed with fighting his entire life. He was no doubt one of the best fighters in his time, but the fighting itself is what he lived and breathed. Some would say that is the reason that he grew upset when Funakoshi was chosen by the Japanese to represent Karate instead on himself. He thought that Funakoshi was a poor example of what a master of Karate, or a fighter should be, and he challenged him numerous times to fight. Funakoshi never accepted.

Of course Matsumura would say that kata would be used for fighting and fighting only. But this proves only what his view was of kata was, this view is not the only view of kata. My instructors view of kata is simply closer to what Funakoshi's (The Father of Modern day Karatedo) view of kata was.

For you to use him as an example proves only a another point of view, which is exactly what I was trying to convey with my instructors post.
Thank you for your opinion on the matter, and for your kind words.

Sorry if I didn't post quickly enough, im currently at work

No sir HE WAS NOT A GOJU practitioner! I am sorry to say you are completely wrong in that statement! also Funakoshi was a student of Anku Itosu who was a student of Bushi Matsumura, and that branch of Karate is called Shuri-Te, and latter Shorin-Ryu. Goju-Ryu was of the Naha-te branch, and its original name under Kanryo Higashionna shorei ryu, and later under Chōjun Miyagi that it was named goju ryu. It is actually a harder style the shuri-te/shorin ryu.

I am unaware of any chalange by Bushi Matsumura to funakoshi, especially as I believe the demo in question was around 1918 or so and Matsumura had died before then! the latest date I have ever seen for Bushi Matsumura is 1901. most dates I have seen are in the mid to late 1890's.

 

[chinto]

With respect to Abernethy, that is his opinion/take on its meaning. If he is correct in his assumption, then why does practically every kata in every style of karate start with a block?

is every block always a block? many blocks can also be interpreted as a strike. the Pinan kata's start that way partly because they were designed by Itosu for the schools, but still could be strikes. as far as a lot of other kata they are strikes or perhaps going on guard before the engagement. there are a lot of interpretations as to what is going on.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

is every block always a block? many blocks can also be interpreted as a strike. the Pinan kata's start that way partly because they were designed by Itosu for the schools, but still could be strikes. as far as a lot of other kata they are strikes or perhaps going on guard before the engagement. there are a lot of interpretations as to what is going on.

Question: Reading Abernethy Sensei and others, I was of the thought that Itosu Sensei developed the Pinan katas prior to inclusion in the Okinawan school system. And that he later 'relabled' the Pinan katas for the school system?

 

[K-man]

is every block always a block? many blocks can also be interpreted as a strike. the Pinan kata's start that way partly because they were designed by Itosu for the schools, but still could be strikes. as far as a lot of other kata they are strikes or perhaps going on guard before the engagement. there are a lot of interpretations as to what is going on.

The way we were taught the opening move in kata in Goju Kai, especially the Taikyoku kata, were as 'blocks'. Although I don't teach those kata anymore, none of my kata start with a 'block'. :asian:

 

[chinto]

the block can also be a strike to an attackers limb or just a block .. there are a lot of things that it can be depending on whats happening. as far as the age of the pinan kata they are from about the same time as Karate getting in the school system. but there are so many versions of each kata that some may indeed predate that by a small time. some are much more advanced in techniques then some other versions.

 

[K-man]

the block can also be a strike to an attackers limb or just a block .. there are a lot of things that it can be depending on whats happening. as far as the age of the pinan kata they are from about the same time as Karate getting in the school system. but there are so many versions of each kata that some may indeed predate that by a small time. some are much more advanced in techniques then some other versions.

Over the last few nights I've discussed 'blocks' with a few of my senior guys after reading some of the posts here on MT. We looked at what they were taught as mid section 'blocks' years back. Then I suggested they should try whatever block they liked to stop the punch I was going to throw to the chest. The only proviso was that it had to be a 'block' they had been taught. They didn't know which hand was coming and I was inside striking range. Even the fastest guy didn't get near 'blocking'. Next we went to reflex or instinctive response and they can deflect the attack and respond appropriately. I've had people try to tell me that with all the training they have done they can defend with a specific 'block' but I've yet to come across one in person. :asian:

 

[mook jong man]

Over the last few nights I've discussed 'blocks' with a few of my senior guys after reading some of the posts here on MT. We looked at what they were taught as mid section 'blocks' years back. Then I suggested they should try whatever block they liked to stop the punch I was going to throw to the chest. The only proviso was that it had to be a 'block' they had been taught. They didn't know which hand was coming and I was inside striking range. Even the fastest guy didn't get near 'blocking'. Next we went to reflex or instinctive response and they can deflect the attack and respond appropriately. I've had people try to tell me that with all the training they have done they can defend with a specific 'block' but I've yet to come across one in person. :asian:

I have done similar experiments within the Wing Chun frame work as well.
Starting from a position of having no guard and with the hands just hanging down by the sides , with the attacker in close and punching at the face or chest.

The best response by far was to use the Pak Sau , ( a sidewards slapping deflection with the palm ) it was the fastest and most instinctive.
Being a fellow Aussie you would know it is just like shooing a fly away from your face in summer.

The Pak Sau also happens to be performed repeatedly in several sections of the Siu Lim Tao form , and one thing that I have learned over the years , is that if a movement is featured heavily in any Wing Chun form then it usually means it is very important.

 

[Danny T]

The Pak Sau also happens to be performed repeatedly in several sections of the Siu Lim Tao form , and one thing that I have learned over the years , is that if a movement is featured heavily in any Wing Chun form then it usually means it is very important.

Absolutely!!

 

[K-man]

The best response by far was to use the Pak Sau , ( a sidewards slapping deflection with the palm ) it was the fastest and most instinctive.
Being a fellow Aussie you would know it is just like shooing a fly away from your face in summer.

Which is exactly what I teach.

But my real thanks are for your insight into the reason for the existence of those little black menaces. Who would have thought they were on Earth purely to facilitate my training.
:s127: