Performing the Katas by Iain Abernethy

[Sojobo]

...many of the old masters were also trained in Jigen Ryu, a school of swordsmanship known for it's powerful first strike.

How acurate is that statement?

It is my understanding that very few (maybe some from the privileged classes) were actually exposed to Jigen-ryu - and then - how much would they have learnt?

Sojobo

 

[Makalakumu]

How acurate is that statement?

It is my understanding that very few (maybe some from the privileged classes) were actually exposed to Jigen-ryu - and then - how much would they have learnt?

Sojobo

In Patrick McCarthy's edition of the Bubishi, he shares an interview with the head of the Jigen Ryu School. In that interview, they discuss records of who was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in the style on Okinawa and how much Okinawan martial arts may have influenced Jigen Ryu. It was related that many Okinawans were trained in the style, including Matsumura and Asato, two of Funakoshi's direct teachers. Therefore, Jigen Ryu techniques at least have the potential to be found in the kata they passed down.

 

[Tez3]

Not really,

It's the view held, and understood by most main stream Wado-ka today.

I have no axe to grind about Bunkai, ground work, Knife defense or defense against a piece of fruit - in Karate Kata...

It’s just that it’s not there in Wado Kata - never has been - and it’s a waste of your time (as a Wadoka) trying to find it. imo.

Best to look at the principles of movement you are learning from them - then combining that with the Wado's paired kata...

At that point you have half a chance of connecting the dots.

Sojobo

it's a good job then that I'm a Tang Soo Do'st and MMA person then!

 

[Sojobo]

In Patrick McCarthy's edition of the Bubishi, he shares an interview with the head of the Jigen Ryu School. In that interview, they discuss records of who was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in the style on Okinawa and how much Okinawan martial arts may have influenced Jigen Ryu. It was related that many Okinawans were trained in the style, including Matsumura and Asato, two of Funakoshi's direct teachers. Therefore, Jigen Ryu techniques at least have the potential to be found in the kata they passed down.

Did you ever attend this guys lecture?

Do you know this Guy?

He makes a lot of sense

Sojobo

 

[Makalakumu]

Did you ever attend this guys lecture?

Do you know this Guy?

He makes a lot of sense

Sojobo

I know Charles Goodin and have attended several of his lectures. I was there when they dedicated the Hawaii Karate Library up at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Here is an article that he wrote on the topic we're discussing.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html

After a few years of training, most Karate student will "know" several kata. Of course, there is a world of difference between being able to merely perform the movements of the kata and truly understanding them. Bunkai literally means to "separate" or "break down" ("bun") and "understand" ("kai"). Kata bunkai means to break down the movements of the kata and study their practical applications.


Is bunkai really necessary? If one studies Karate simply to get in shape or perform kata in tournaments, bunkai may seem like a waste of time. What counts is looking good (as defined by the rules of the competition), particularly to the judges and the crowd.


By the same token, bunkai is not really necessary for students interested solely in kumite (sparring). Why? Because only the most basic applications are permitted in kumite. I once read a booklet for a tournament held here in Hawaii. It listed techniques not permitted in the kumite competition -- things like pulling hair, poking eyes, twisting joints, choking, throwing, kicking the groin, etc. They were all the best techniques!


Kumite with rules limits the fight. Kata without bunkai has no fight at all. And if one can only kick, punch and block, Karate offers very little advantage. A larger and stronger person can probably kick, punch and block harder, even with no martial arts training. Only through a proper study of bunkai can kata actually be used for self-defense.
So what if you never learned bunkai? Don't feel bad, you're not alone.


Before 1900, Karate was taught in private, usually to only one, two or a handful of students. Even great teachers like Anko Itosu had relatively few students. These were "private" students who often trained with a teacher for life. Such students, after learning the movements and sequence of kata, also learned the meanings. The term "bunkai" might not have been used. The study of applications was an essential part of the process of learning kata. An emphasis on "bunkai" as a distinct subject only became necessary when the study of applications was watered down or eliminated altogether.


When Karate was taught in public, first in the public schools in Okinawa and later in colleges and schools on mainland Japan, teachers suddenly had to deal with large groups. Instead of training with a teacher for life, students trained for only a few years, or even only a single term. In such a short time, teachers could only teach the most basic form of Karate. And without personally knowing each student (and his family) for many years, a teacher might be reluctant to teach certain dangerous applications of techniques.


It should not be surprising that private students (those who trained at the teacher's house or even at the family tomb) and public students (those who generally trained at schools) would be taught differently. Now take this forward a few generations. Soon, whole generations of students would learn Karate without studying applications -- and then they would become the teachers!

The rest of the article is based off of his deep research into the subject. I especially liked this part.

Grappling. Here is where it gets really interesting. When the movements of kata were made public, the first thing to go was the grappling element. This seems to be particularly true in Shorin-Ryu based systems. Goju-Ryu evolved later and grappling seems to have not been suppressed in the kata.


However, in many systems, joint manipulation and grappling techniques were either eliminated or changed into blocks. Thus, a block might not only also be a punch -- it might also be a joint lock or throw. In fact, for many Karate teachers, these are the more likely applications. But if you execute a block with the body dynamics for a block, it might not work properly as a throw. Blocks work by stopping or redirecting an attack. Throws involve a completely different process of intercepting and redirecting the attacker's momentum. You have to know what you are doing (blocking or throwing) in order to do it properly.


When Kentsu Yabu came to Hawaii he was asked what the difference was between Karate (which then meant "China Hand") and Ju Jutsu. His reply was remarkable. Think about Ju Jutsu for a moment. Its curriculum is vast. Yabu answered that Ju Jutsu was only 10% of Karate. This was more than an idle boast. We know today that pre-public school system Karate had a comprehensive grappling element, often called Tegumi or Tuite.


In other words, an old school Karateka could punch like a boxer, throw like a Judoka and manipulate joints like a Ju Jutsu expert. If you ask me, the closest art to Karate is old style Aikido. If Yabu Sensei was right, a Karate expert should know just about every Aikido technique.

 

[Tez3]

Not really,

It's the view held, and understood by most main stream Wado-ka today.

I have no axe to grind about Bunkai, ground work, Knife defense or defense against a piece of fruit - in Karate Kata...

It’s just that it’s not there in Wado Kata - never has been - and it’s a waste of your time (as a Wadoka) trying to find it. imo.

Best to look at the principles of movement you are learning from them - then combining that with the Wado's paired kata...

At that point you have half a chance of connecting the dots.

Sojobo

I have no head for what I think of as the airy fairy arguments in martial arts so I've put this question to greater martial arts minds than mine.

However I'm curious as to your wording, you say you have no axe to grind about Bunkai etc in karate kata but say it's not in Wado Ryu, so what then do you class Wado Ryu as if not karate?

 

[K-man]

The kata can easily work with grappling. The reason I said "developing something more suited to ground work", is because a lot of the kata portrays very nasty, or lethal, techniques. Strikes with the point of the elbow, eye gouges, throat grabs, neck cranks, groin grabs, etc are all frowned upon in MMA competition. If you were to use kata for MMA (and I'm not suggesting you would) then the rules would have to be taken into account. But, on the other hand, I don't believe kata was intended for use against trained martial artists either.

Can it?

I'd say an easier way to learn how to grapple was to learn grappling?

As a Wado-ka and a Jujutsu-ka - I can understand where you guys are coming from but I think you are wasting your time if I am being honest.

Trying to shoe-horn jujutsu techniques into Karate Kata (particularly Wado kata) is like reverse engineering to me.

And it completely misses the point of doing solo kata in the first place imo.

I have been learning Aikido for the past six years and I don't have to 'shoehorn' any of it into my karate kata. It is all there already. I just never recognised it. Now that I have reasonable proficiency in Aikido, I can teach the grappling techniques contained in the kata to my guys.

Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) began visiting Okinawa in 1927, and was so impressed with Sensei Miyagi’s toudijutsu. Kano was particularly impressed with grappling, locking and throwing techniques and the correct use of breathing. Kano invited him, along with Mabuni, to Japan in 1930 and 1932 to demonstrate at several tournaments.

What most people don't seem to understand, due to their exposure to 'sport karate', is the close nature of karate. As the Okinawan guys say, "once you engage, you don't disengage until it's over". That means keeping control by restricting your opponent's movements either by trapping or grabbing.

Now, back to your question. If in grappling I used my my elbow, as shown in the kata, in a MMA tournament, I would be disqualified. That is because I would be using the point of the elbow. Therefore the kata would not be able to be used without modification. Secondly, kata was not designed for use against trained martial artists. So for these two reasons, I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to modify it. I actually said in my post I wouldn't suggest anyone try to use kata in MMA competition.

Your observation, "I'd say an easier way to learn how to grapple was to learn grappling", is quite right. A lot of my mates teach BJJ. I don't bother because I have no desire, or at my age there is no likelihood, to compete in grappling competition. Also, all of the guys I know who have trained BJJ for some time at a high level, have significant joint damage.
In the unlikely event I am engaged in a street altercation, and the even less likely chance it goes to the ground, I am confident in my ability to use the nasty techniques, I am intimately acquainted with, to inflict enough pain and or damage, for me to prevail.

Makalakumu's post #65 accurately describes what karate used to be and some of us are teaching those methods.

This thread is actually about Iain Abernethy , and on the table beside me is his book, "Understanding Kata & Bunkai - Karate's Grappling Methods". If you are right in your thoughts on kata, it must be a book about nothing! :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Makalakumu's post #65 accurately describes what karate used to be and some of us are teaching those methods.

This thread is actually about Iain Abernethy , and on the table beside me is his book, "Understanding Kata & Bunkai - Karate's Grappling Methods". If you are right in your thoughts on kata, it must be a book about nothing! :asian:

Thanks! I've been interested in this topic for years how and it actually is the subject of a book that I wrote. I don't have Iain's book and would love it if you would elaborate on the underlined.

 

[rickster]

Rickster. You're wrong. Deal with it.

The original term used on Okinawa was dominantly "Te" 手 (pronounced "ti/di" in the native dialect), sometimes "Tode/Todei". The first character, "to", is written with this character: 唐. That character is also pronounced "kara", and is a reference to Tang China. In other words, the term "karate" and "tode" are the same thing, written with the same characters, and with the same meaning: 唐手, "kara te", meaning "China (Tang Dynasty) Hand". In 1936 there was a meeting of some of the most dominant names in karate about what they were going to call their art for the Japanese people, and (from memory) Chojun Miyagi mentioned that he'd been using the same phrase (karate), but with a different character for the first part, meaning "empty", making "karate" 空手.

In other words, "karate" (唐&#25163 is Japanese for "China Hand", and is an older name for the art known today as "karate" 空手. You're completely wrong with your references to "Chinese reference" and "Japanese reference", you know. And I have no idea what you're talking about with the whole "speak Chinese/speak Japanese" thing... yeah, and your dates on the name change are out as well.

So, uh, no.

Uh, I did not mention any dates.

And oh, it was about getting rid of the Chinese association.

More like having to make it appear to be distinctively Japanese

 

[Makalakumu]

Uh, I did not mention any dates.

And oh, it was about getting rid of the Chinese association.

More like having to make it appear to be distinctively Japanese

The point is that the characters for "Empty" and "Tang" can both be pronounced as "Kara".

 

[K-man]

Thanks! I've been interested in this topic for years how and it actually is the subject of a book that I wrote. I don't have Iain's book and would love it if you would elaborate on the underlined.

If you are right in your thoughts on kata, it must be a book about nothing! :asian:

Ah! I can see some confusion. By "you" I was addressing Sojobo. I referred to your post as just what karate should be.

So, my comment was a bit of obtuse logic. Iain's book is on grappling in the kata .. some people claim there is no grappling in kata .. therefore, for them, the content of Iain's book must be about nothing.

Here is the book I am referring to. You can peruse some of the content. The 'Introduction' says much of what we are discussing, in the first paragraph.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Kata-Bunkai-Karates-Grappling/dp/8172454260/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

And again, thank you (Makalakumu this time) for your great reference in #65. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

Sojobo, I now have your answer to Bunkai in Wado Ryu, thanks as I said to greater minds themselves, in fact the person named in the OP.

There is Bunkai in Wado Ryu katas but the fact is they aren't Wado Ryu katas but katas practicised by Wadoka, the katas came long before Ohtsuka formed Wado Ryu and he would have been taught the Bunkai that is in them. It seems that Ohtsuka's karate teachers were clear that there were applications in these katas. The Pinan series were by Itosu, Kushanku by Tode Sakagawa, Chinto was created by Soken Matsumura etc all with Bunkai in them. The katas were very little changed by Ohtsuka so the applications are still in there for those that want to see them. If you don't wish to train Bunkai it doesn't mean to say it's not there, just that you don't wish to train Bunkai. As Iain says you can't change things retrospectively, the katas were created with the applications in them, Ohtsuka took them over as they were so therefore there is applications in there.

I will Pm you Iain's whole reply if you like?

 

[Chris Parker]

Uh, I did not mention any dates.

And oh, it was about getting rid of the Chinese association.

More like having to make it appear to be distinctively Japanese

Again, Rickster, you're wrong about pretty much everything here. "Getting rid of the Chinese association" was far from the only reason, and the only attempt to make karate seem to be distinctively Japanese was for the Japanese forms that developed in the early-mid 20th Century. But then again, one could also point out systems such as Shorinji Kempo, which was also founded in the mid-20th Century... not a lot of avoiding naming Chinese influence there (if you aren't aware, "Shorinji Kempo" is basically the Japanese pronunciation of "Shaolin Chuan Fa").

But to illustrate what I mean when I say you've been wrong this whole time....

Kara Te = China Hand

There probably isn't much that is Okinawan that isn't also Chinese.

Actually, Kara te does NOT mean Chinese Hand

The proper earlier reference is Tang Te _ China Hand

So here, you missed the reference to the Okinawan form, which predates the Japanese naming convention. I've also demonstrated (with the actual kanji themselves) that "Kara" can be written meaning "China", as well as "Te" meaning "hand". The use of the term "Tang" Te is just plain wrong. You've taken the Westernized form of the Chinese name for one of their early dynasties, and combined it with the Japanese term for "hand", missing that the Japanese term for the Chinese dynasty is "Kara" or "To", depending on how you read it. So, no.

Kara can mean Empty or Tang, which refers to China.

Nope. You are mistaken...Kara is in no reference to "China"

Kara and/or Te, is purely a Japanese reference-term

"Kara" (&#21776 specifically refers to China. You really don't have any argument against this. The evidence is that, well, it does. End of story, really.

You have taken this out of context.

Kara and Te, is Japanese reference

Tang/Tode/Tuti, is the Chinese Reference

No. Wrong. Kara and Te are Japanese terms, the first can be (and was originally) written meaning "China, Tang Dynasty", later written to mean "empty". Tang is a Western reference to the Chinese dynasty/time period, not Chinese, or Japanese. Tode is an alternate Japanese reading of "Karate", with "kara" meaning "China". "Tuti" is the Okinawan pronunciation. The idea of any of them being a "Chinese reference" or a "Japanese reference" is just odd.

Saying Karate is reference per translation to Chinese Hand is like incorrectly saying if you speak Chinese, you can speak Japanese because they are both from Asia.

Huh? I didn't address this earlier because, bluntly, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Now, in actual distinction, Tode/Tang originally had translated as Chinese Hand, but via the Japanese occupation they changed it to mean "Kara-Te, Empty Hand", as this was a attempt for the Japanese to get rid of the Chinese association

And here's where you dealt with dates (referencing the Japanese Occupation).

For your information, though, here's an article on the meeting where the name was discussed. You may note persons such as Chojun Miyagi stating that yes, he used the term "Chinese Hand": http://www.isshinryu.nl/history/1936meeting.html

Now, now that that's dealt with, perchance you could answer this question from earlier?

So, if you would be so kind, before we explain it to you, can you tell us what you understand kata to be, so we can see where you need correction?

 

[TimoS]

Jigen Ryu has empty hand lists that show what a warrior would do when disarmed and some of these techniques can be found in karate kata.

So? Finding some things that are similar in two totally unrelated arts is not proof that one influenced the other. I can find some things in Tang Lang Kung-fu that are done almost exactly the same way that we do them in karate. All that proves is that there are only so many ways you can manipulate an opponent. Of course e.g. Jigen ryu may have influenced karate, but there isn't really any evidence of that, one way or another.


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TimoS]

Matsumura and Asato, two of Funakoshi's direct teachers.

Funakoshi learned from Itosu and Azato, NOT Matsumura


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TimoS]

Again, Rickster, you're wrong about pretty much everything here. "Getting rid of the Chinese association" was far from the only reason

True. Actually the first written evidence of karate using the current kanji is already from 190x (1906, if my memory serves me correctly) in the book by Hanashiro Chomo. To me, this just goes to show that both meanings were probably quite widely used by then.



---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rickster]

The point is that the characters for "Empty" and "Tang" can both be pronounced as "Kara".

However, the kanji is different, and why?

Many Karateka and/or Japanese Karate instructors of the distant past, did not want it to be associated with China.

From PR reasons (perhaps the rivalry with China) Japan had chose to use “Empty’

 

[rickster]

Again, Rickster, you're wrong about pretty much everything here. "Getting rid of the Chinese association" was far from the only reason, and the only attempt to make karate seem to be distinctively Japanese was for the Japanese forms that developed in the early-mid 20th Century. But then again, one could also point out systems such as Shorinji Kempo, which was also founded in the mid-20th Century... not a lot of avoiding naming Chinese influence there (if you aren't aware, "Shorinji Kempo" is basically the Japanese pronunciation of "Shaolin Chuan Fa").

But to illustrate what I mean when I say you've been wrong this whole time....



So here, you missed the reference to the Okinawan form, which predates the Japanese naming convention. I've also demonstrated (with the actual kanji themselves) that "Kara" can be written meaning "China", as well as "Te" meaning "hand". The use of the term "Tang" Te is just plain wrong. You've taken the Westernized form of the Chinese name for one of their early dynasties, and combined it with the Japanese term for "hand", missing that the Japanese term for the Chinese dynasty is "Kara" or "To", depending on how you read it. So, no.



"Kara" (&#21776 specifically refers to China. You really don't have any argument against this. The evidence is that, well, it does. End of story, really.



No. Wrong. Kara and Te are Japanese terms, the first can be (and was originally) written meaning "China, Tang Dynasty", later written to mean "empty". Tang is a Western reference to the Chinese dynasty/time period, not Chinese, or Japanese. Tode is an alternate Japanese reading of "Karate", with "kara" meaning "China". "Tuti" is the Okinawan pronunciation. The idea of any of them being a "Chinese reference" or a "Japanese reference" is just odd.



Huh? I didn't address this earlier because, bluntly, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.



And here's where you dealt with dates (referencing the Japanese Occupation).

For your information, though, here's an article on the meeting where the name was discussed. You may note persons such as Chojun Miyagi stating that yes, he used the term "Chinese Hand": http://www.isshinryu.nl/history/1936meeting.html

Now, now that that's dealt with, perchance you could answer this question from earlier?

I am aware of Shorinji Kempo, Shorin ryu.. (as well as the swastika symbol used) not only making these styles associated with China, but going back to Indian (Indian) roots (with the symbol)

That said, some Karate styles had paid lineage-homeage to their roots.

I did not or never said "ALL" Japanese Karate systems kept a dis-association with China

 

[Sojobo]

you say you have no axe to grindabout Bunkai etc in karate kata but say it's not inWado Ryu, so what then do you class Wado Ryu as if not karate?

Tez,

As explained in my PM, I am not suggesting that the practice of Bunkai withinKarate Kata is in anyway wrong or misguided, my point is that as a system -Wado-ryu does not utilise the process of Bunkai.

This statement is not meant to be glib, it is borne out over 25 years trainingin mainstream Japanese Wado and I can vouch for the fact that it doesn't formpart of its pedagogy.

Why? Maybe Otsuka never learnt bunkai? More probable that he saw the"omote" of the kata and realised that it would be more useful as vehicleto assist in the transmission of key principles within in his vision ofWado-ryu as a whole?

As you said in a previous post, Wado has a lot of depth. You can't take part ofit away and expect it still to work like Wado.

Does Wado have take downs, arm bars, throws, locks and holds etc.? It sure doesa plenty!!! However the methodology involved in realising this does not involve the process of disassembling solo kata to a point where it moves away from the external form of the Kata. This is where our paired kata (Kihon Kumite, Idori,Tanto-dori etc.) come in to play.

This brings me to your next question… What is Wado Ryu?

Well, many (if not most) of the paired kata mentioned above – are pretty much straight out of Shindo Yoshin Ryu which is not surprising considering Otsuka’s pedigree in it.

So really I suppose what I mean to say about the subject of the thread is that although Iain may be utilising Wado kata he is not “doing” Wado-ryu imo.

To be fair to him though – he is not saying that he is.

Sojobo

 

[rickster]

Again,


No. Wrong. Kara and Te are Japanese terms, the first can be (and was originally) written meaning "China, Tang Dynasty", later written to mean "empty". Tang is a Western reference to the Chinese dynasty/time period, not Chinese, or Japanese. Tode is an alternate Japanese reading of "Karate", with "kara" meaning "China". "Tuti" is the Okinawan pronunciation. The idea of any of them being a "Chinese reference" or a "Japanese reference" is just odd.

*BOLD* you just proved my point...these are Japanese terms/reference...Badda Bing!

*underline* you proved by point again that they change it to mean empty....why?-to not associate it with China....Badda Bing!