Perceiving The Elephant

[Dirty Dog]

When I speak of competition, I include all kinds of things, from kata to visualization to shadow boxing to eating sushi at the baseball game. Why not? Even if it's bad sushi, it can still be competitive.

If it's bad sushi, and there's a line at the restroom, it can be VERY competitive.

 

[Steve]

If it's bad sushi, and there's a line at the restroom, it can be VERY competitive.

Why not? If anything can mean anything, have at it. If competition is the difference between what that guy does and what I do, rather than compete, I'll just redefine the term and call what I do competition. If application is the difference, I'll just redefine the term and start calling my training a form of "application."

Rather than exercise to lose weight, I'll just redefine muscle so that it also includes fat, and then I will be muscular.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why not? If anything can mean anything, have at it. If competition is the difference between what that guy does and what I do, rather than compete, I'll just redefine the term and call what I do competition. If application is the difference, I'll just redefine the term and start calling my training a form of "application."

Rather than exercise to lose weight, I'll just redefine muscle so that it also includes fat, and then I will be muscular.

Do you have a point, Steve, or are you just itching for an argument? I'm not feeling very argumentative today, so I don't think I'll be much help if it's the latter.

 

[Steve]

Do you have a point, Steve, or are you just itching for an argument? I'm not feeling very argumentative today, so I don't think I'll be much help if it's the latter.

My point is you are very liberal with language, and have no problem coopting a word and changing its meaning fundamentally to suit your purpose. But, let's be real. You know that,. If you didn't understand the point, you wouldn't be so defensive. I think you're very argumentative but really, that could mean anything. Right?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My point is you are very liberal with language, and have no problem coopting a word and changing its meaning fundamentally to suit your purpose. But, let's be real. You know that,. If you didn't understand the point, you wouldn't be so defensive. I think you're very argumentative but really, that could mean anything. Right?

That second definition there doesn't really say anything about it being formal or open. People can compete without being in any formal competition. Not sure what your problem is.

It would be different if I said "a competition", because that clearly connotes (and probably denotes) a specific event focused on competing.

But you knew that.

 

[Steve]

View attachment 22022

That second definition there doesn't really say anything about it being formal or open. People can compete without being in any formal competition. Not sure what your problem is.

It would be different if I said "a competition", because that clearly connotes (and probably denotes) a specific event focused on competing.

But you knew that.

You're doing for competition what Trump does for... Everything.

Even the example of the second definition is contrary to your very liberal use of the term. You're conflating the trait of being competitive with the noun competition. The second definition also doesn't say anything about informal competition... At all, but it does reference a formal competition.

But more to my point, which you said you were interested in, context is important. Being competitive in martial arts is not the same as training for a competition. Just like training like a cop is not the same as training because you are a cop. Or confusing a fitness bootcamp for actual boot camp because you're going to be deployed to Syria.

If I seem a little frustrated, it's because this is, to me, such an obvious, fundamental truth that I am confounded how you and others fail to understand it. And I hold you to a higher standard because your business is adult learning.

 

[dvcochran]

Nope, it's your standard run of the mill BJJ.



It's not the competitive aspect, it's the sparring aspect. In BJJ you completely submit to your partner in the roll. While other arts have sparring and competition, it usually goes back and forth with no one completely giving in to their partner's technique unless there's an accidental knock out.

When you tap in BJJ you're acknowledging your defeat, and that has a pretty wild effect on people's ego because not everyone can accept the fact that they suck. I've seen people refuse to tap and end up getting choked out or a limb broken. I've seen regulars who avoid the roll because they don't want to get tapped, get the confidence to roll, get tapped repeatedly and never return.

It takes a stronger mind and spirit to stick around and get tapped over and over again, and it's partially what makes BJJ such an effective system.

Oh, I just assumed everyone that just sucked ended up leaving. I have never taken BJJ. I have knocked people out and been knocked out. If you cannot understand that what you are saying is ridiculous, ….why do I even try.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're doing for competition what Trump does for... Everything.

Even the example of the second definition is contrary to your very liberal use of the term. You're conflating the trait of being competitive with the noun competition. The second definition also doesn't say anything about informal competition... At all, but it does reference a formal competition.

But more to my point, which you said you were interested in, context is important. Being competitive in martial arts is not the same as training for a competition. Just like training like a cop is not the same as training because you are a cop. Or confusing a fitness bootcamp for actual boot camp because you're going to be deployed to Syria.

If I seem a little frustrated, it's because this is, to me, such an obvious, fundamental truth that I am confounded how you and others fail to understand it. And I hold you to a higher standard because your business is adult learning.

Yeah, and I never said anything about training for competition, so I'm not really sure why that showed up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, I just assumed everyone that just sucked ended up leaving. I have never taken BJJ. I have knocked people out and been knocked out. If you cannot understand that what you are saying is ridiculous, ….why do I even try.

I can't agree with you on that. What's so ridiculous about what he's saying?

Everybody sucks until they don't. Most of us continue to suck at some things, even when we don't suck, overall. Where there's some aspect of competition involved - especially the kind that often ends with someone having to tap out - it becomes more obvious what we suck at. That is hard for some people to deal with, so they leave.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, and I never said anything about training for competition, so I'm not really sure why that showed up.

The more important a competition is. The more pronounced effects it has. People work harder and develop more to win. And have to develop greater courage to loose.

And is the development of this warrior ethos.

So being competitive in a club where competition isn't considered a viable training tool. Doesn't really do the same job as one that does. It protects peoples egos a bit more. And you will find they will often have issues with entitlement a bit more.

Which is also Hanzou,s point about grappling. When you loose you really loose.
Which means you deal with a lot more elements regarding mental and emotional development.

I don't think it is defined by striking/grappling as I can make someone cry doing either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The more important a competition is. The more pronounced effects it has. People work harder and develop more to win. And have to develop greater courage to loose.

And is the development of this warrior ethos.

So being competitive in a club where competition isn't considered a viable training tool. Doesn't really do the same job as one that does.

Which is also Hanzou,s point about grappling. When you loose you really loose.

I don't think it is defined by striking/grappling as I can make someone cry doing either.

I get that the importance (to the individual) makes a difference. I'm just not sure why Steve is worked up about me clarifying that when I say "competition", I'm including the informal stuff, too. Losing when you are trying to win isn't easy, and folks who want to keep developing in an environment where they will lose part of the time have to come to grips with that.

I think it's more common in classes with grappling, because you can actually get to a point where you've undeniably "lost" every time, without much risk of injury (BJJ submissions are a good example). That's harder to do with the same safety with strikes. But you're right, it can happen there, too.

 

[drop bear]

I get that the importance (to the individual) makes a difference. I'm just not sure why Steve is worked up about me clarifying that when I say "competition", I'm including the informal stuff, too. Losing when you are trying to win isn't easy, and folks who want to keep developing in an environment where they will lose part of the time have to come to grips with that.

I think it's more common in classes with grappling, because you can actually get to a point where you've undeniably "lost" every time, without much risk of injury (BJJ submissions are a good example). That's harder to do with the same safety with strikes. But you're right, it can happen there, too.

It is like sparring. We can both be doing it and be doing completely different things

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, I just assumed everyone that just sucked ended up leaving. I have never taken BJJ. I have knocked people out and been knocked out. If you cannot understand that what you are saying is ridiculous, ….why do I even try.

Are you and your classmates knocking each other out everytime you spar in class? If not, then it isn't the same thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you and your classmates knocking each other out everytime you spar in class? If not, then it isn't the same thing.

It wouldn't have to be actual KO's, but it would have to be either hits hard enough to make the outcome undeniable, or just completely overwhelming with pressure (to the same end). As you say, without that, it's not quite the same as the consistent submitting that is possible with grappling.

 

[dvcochran]

Are you and your classmates knocking each other out everytime you spar in class? If not, then it isn't the same thing.

Yes, it is. The mental acuity needed in any sparring scenario paramount. Predicting what your opponent will do and getting them to do what you want them to do is well over half the challenge. If, as you say, I go into a match knowing all I have to do is tap to get out of a pinch I could easily let my guard down.

 

[dvcochran]

I can't agree with you on that. What's so ridiculous about what he's saying?

Everybody sucks until they don't. Most of us continue to suck at some things, even when we don't suck, overall. Where there's some aspect of competition involved - especially the kind that often ends with someone having to tap out - it becomes more obvious what we suck at. That is hard for some people to deal with, so they leave.

I knew my comment would get this reaction. But that is not the way I read @Hanzou 's comment. I heard more of the "you will never be any good at this so why are you here" inference.
I agree we all "suck" , from the early days of working out to our current level. The mindset that tapping out is the ultimate way or only correct way to spar is just incorrect however.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I knew my comment would get this reaction. But that is not the way I read @Hanzou 's comment. I heard more of the "you will never be any good at this so why are you here" inference.
I agree we all "suck" , from the early days of working out to our current level. The mindset that tapping out is the ultimate way or only correct way to spar is just incorrect however.

It's certainly not the only way. For me, it's about having a chance to experience the suckitude. I've been in classes where that never really happened, and there were people involved who could have benefited (why in the world doesn't that word have two t's??) from it. There's a difference in what's developed between sparring and randori (I use the former to refer to primarily striking, and the latter to refer to primarily grappling). There's more of a price to even the small losses in sparring, when actual contact is used. I'd much rather get submitted several times than get hit once. I like to play to win, but have never really minded losing when I felt I was doing my best and everyone was playing by the rules (whatever they were at the time), so getting submitted never bothered me. And it's much more fun being dismantled by someone much better in grappling than it is with striking.

 

[Hanzou]

It wouldn't have to be actual KO's, but it would have to be either hits hard enough to make the outcome undeniable, or just completely overwhelming with pressure (to the same end). As you say, without that, it's not quite the same as the consistent submitting that is possible with grappling.

Yeah, a TKO would work too. The point is to be beaten to the point where you cant continue. Grappling arts have a mechanism that can do that without causing lasting damage, and that has always been its advantage over striking arts.

It really is a testament to the genius of Jigoro Kano.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, it is. The mental acuity needed in any sparring scenario paramount. Predicting what your opponent will do and getting them to do what you want them to do is well over half the challenge.

Half the challenge of what? Are you beating your training partner to the point where they cant stand and have to be carried out? No? Well hen again, it isnt the same thing. Playing foot and fist tag certainly has benefits and should be done whenever possible, but no one in that exercise is going to have to surrender to their training partner and both will come out of it as "winners". That leads to an entire host of negative consequences.

If, as you say, I go into a match knowing all I have to do is tap to get out of a pinch I could easily let my guard down.

Why would you let your guard down? Do you want to be placed in a choke or a joint lock?

 

[Martial D]

I knew my comment would get this reaction. But that is not the way I read @Hanzou 's comment. I heard more of the "you will never be any good at this so why are you here" inference.
I agree we all "suck" , from the early days of working out to our current level. The mindset that tapping out is the ultimate way or only correct way to spar is just incorrect however.

It has nothing to do with an 'ultimate way' It's a matter of apples and oranges.

Sparring is a learning tool, in both grappling and sparring. The major, and undeniable difference, is that when you roll there is a clear victor every round(or at least, the potential for there to be..some rolls just go the 3 or 5 minutes).