Perceiving The Elephant

[Martial D]

So in other words, no. You're not.
You don't need to break their arm for them to know you could have. I don't need to knock them out for them to know I could have.
Same same.

Except it's not the same. When you are sparring on the feet, some things land clean, some don't, angles are always in flux, etc. If you are going light contact, there's really no way to tell what strike might stop you if it were full power. That's not the point of light sparring.

At full power some shots that look good might glance off, while shots that don't look like much might send you off for a nap.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are going light contact, there's really no way to tell what strike might stop you if it were full power.

Agree! In full contact, sometimes you may have to punch your opponent 2 or 3 times on the same spot to knock him down.

 

[dvcochran]

Half the challenge of what? Are you beating your training partner to the point where they cant stand and have to be carried out? No? Well hen again, it isnt the same thing. Playing foot and fist tag certainly has benefits and should be done whenever possible, but no one in that exercise is going to have to surrender to their training partner and both will come out of it as "winners". That leads to an entire host of negative consequences.



Why would you let your guard down? Do you want to be placed in a choke or a joint lock?

Sure, why not? All I have to do is tap out.

 

[dvcochran]

Half the challenge of what? Are you beating your training partner to the point where they cant stand and have to be carried out? No? Well hen again, it isnt the same thing. Playing foot and fist tag certainly has benefits and should be done whenever possible, but no one in that exercise is going to have to surrender to their training partner and both will come out of it as "winners". That leads to an entire host of negative consequences.



Why would you let your guard down? Do you want to be placed in a choke or a joint lock

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don’t find all sparring partners are that convincing to each other.

That's a problem with those sparring partners. Not with sparring.

Yeah, but nothing beats the look on the face of a huge burly man when he got tapped-out multiple times by a woman half his size.

Unless it's the look on the face of a huge burly man when he gets knocked down multiple times by a person (I'm not going to be sexist and assume it has to be a woman) half his size.

Except it's not the same. When you are sparring on the feet, some things land clean, some don't, angles are always in flux, etc. If you are going light contact, there's really no way to tell what strike might stop you if it were full power. That's not the point of light sparring.

Nice strawman. Nobody said anything about light sparring. I said, quite clearly, that I'm talking about going 75-80% power. It hurts. It just doesn't injure.

At full power some shots that look good might glance off, while shots that don't look like much might send you off for a nap.

And some choke holds that look good are escaped.

Same same.
It's not necessary to break someones arm grappling. Nor is it necessary to knock someone out striking.

 

[Martial D]

That's a problem with those sparring partners. Not with sparring.



Unless it's the look on the face of a huge burly man when he gets knocked down multiple times by a person (I'm not going to be sexist and assume it has to be a woman) half his size.



Nice strawman. Nobody said anything about light sparring. I said, quite clearly, that I'm talking about going 75-80% power. It hurts. It just doesn't injure.



And some choke holds that look good are escaped.

Same same.
It's not necessary to break someones arm grappling. Nor is it necessary to knock someone out striking.

Well, I assumed light sparring because I assumed you trained smart. It's not smart to go hard in sparring regularly. Too many negatives.

Besides that doesn't seem to jibe with your statement that 'the other guy knows I could have knocked him out' maybe I'm missing something? If you are already going 80%, a clean shot to the button with good structure WILL ko people(more times than not). There doesn't seem to be a need for speculation about 'could have' at that point.

Secondly, if you can escape the hold/choke, you don't tap. Still not the same. You tap when a: you feel the world slipping away or b: when you feel your joint twist in a way you know to be critical and can't escape.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, but nothing beats the look on the face of a huge burly man when he got tapped-out multiple times by a woman half his size.

Well, nothing except those big burly men getting choked out and then pooping in their shorts (true story).

I'm a short little twerpy dude. I've sparred with a sumo wrestler, and quite a few weightlifters. They still acknowledged when they were outmatched (not that I'm great...just that they were new). One time a weightlifter came in with a pretty big attitude for his first few months, and I was an assistant instructor. He made comments about how he could whip me, so I offered a sparring match. I kept weaving around his punches as he got frustrated with me and as a result his punches got harder and harder towards my face. Once he tired himself out, I (lightly) pummeled him. Incredibly incredibly dangerous thing to do, I'm not sure I'd be able to any more, but that guy absolutely new he was outplayed by a little twerp. He stuck around for a few years, and would mention it to newcomers, which is probably the only reason I remember it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Medical students go back and forth between the classroom ("technique") and then practical training ("experience"). They have to learn policies and procedures, terminology for effective communication, and all sorts of things about the human body and how it interacts. This is the equivalent of the "technique" training.

But then there's the actual experience of going to see patients and trying to figure out what this kind of cough means, or what the patient means when they say "I have this pain here". They have to practice their bedside manner, the manual dexterity of working with a patient to feel what's wrong (i.e. swelling) or to do basic procedures (i.e. sticking a needle in them).

What a martial artist gets out of that is the ability to read their opponents, react quicker, and simply to have confidence going in.

This is where techniques and drills (which I would put into the classroom portion of martial arts) differ from resistance training and sparring (which fit more into the practical training). Both are important.

Bedside manner as I see it is one of the more important things a doctor can have. If a doctor has good bedside manner, his patients will feel more at ease to discuss things (some of which will turn out to be important), and will be more positive in their response to the doctor's suggestions.

Martial arts instructors need that good "bedside manner" as well. Students will react more positively to training.

To your credit, the way you describe how you teach, I think you have that.

In martial arts when you do technique you are learning the wrong technique.

Because you are copying someone else's technique.

Some of the old masters seem to have figured out what techniques or subtle moves in a technique work best. They have taught them to their students who passed them down. Don't be to quick to put their 'old' techniques down as useless.

That said, in the Hapkido I learned, I was taught what seemed to be the best way to do a technique, one that worked best for most people. I was also taught if there was a way that made it easier for me to properly do the technique, I should do it that way. My instructors would allow it if it did indeed work better for me.

 

[drop bear]

Some of the old masters seem to have figured out what techniques or subtle moves in a technique work best. They have taught them to their students who passed them down. Don't be to quick to put their 'old' techniques down as useless.

That said, in the Hapkido I learned, I was taught what seemed to be the best way to do a technique, one that worked best for most people. I was also taught if there was a way that made it easier for me to properly do the technique, I should do it that way. My instructors would allow it if it did indeed work better for me.

Yeah. But you still have to make the technique work.

 

[oftheherd1]

Yeah. But you still have to make the technique work.

Of course. It was rare that I would need to make a change. Usually I would find it was my lack of understanding of the proper application. Actually I can't recall it being any other way after I had time to work more on the technique. To me, the 'old' tried and true way always seemed best after I had a chance to really work on it.

YMMV