Perceiving The Elephant

[Dirty Dog]

Are you and your classmates knocking each other out everytime you spar in class? If not, then it isn't the same thing.

Are you and your classmates breaking each others limbs every time you spar in class? If not, then it isn't the same thing.

 

[Martial D]

Are you and your classmates breaking each others limbs every time you spar in class? If not, then it isn't the same thing.

There is a serious difference here though. There is no comparable point of no return(besides being knocked unconscious) with striking as there is with submissions. You tap before you go to sleep, and before your arm breaks, to prevent these things. If you refuse to tap you WILL sleep, and your arm WILL break.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There is a serious difference here though. There is no comparable point of no return(besides being knocked unconscious) with striking as there is with submissions. You tap before you go to sleep, and before your arm breaks, to prevent these things. If you refuse to tap you WILL sleep, and your arm WILL break.

Same applies to striking. I don't hit routinely people full force and try to knock them out. But with appropriate students, I hit them hard enough that we both know I could have knocked them out. And, frankly, if a student insists that the strikes could not possibly have knocked them out, then they get knocked out. Not surprisingly, the vast majority of people will know that they could have been knocked out and accept it without actually being knocked out. Just as most will accept that they would have gone to sleep without actually going to sleep.
I do have one guy who refuses to tap on chokes, though. He's been asleep a few times because of it. He's smart enough not to get knocked out, though.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, and I never said anything about training for competition, so I'm not really sure why that showed up.

Really? You can't follow the train of thought? Okay. That explains a lot.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you and your classmates breaking each others limbs every time you spar in class? If not, then it isn't the same thing.

Technically yes. When you tap you're acknowledging that your partner has successfully beaten you to the point where you can no longer fight. You're in a sense asking your partner for mercy because you are helpless.

I'm not aware of a comparable mechanism in striking arts beyond actually beating down, crippling or knocking out your partner. Kyokushin and similar karate styles are the only non-sport striking MA where I've seen it done, but those guys actually beat the hell out of each other.

In arts that have zero sparring, that type of mental development is completely nonexistent.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Technically yes. When you tap you're acknowledging that your partner has successfully beaten you to the point where you can no longer fight. You're in a sense asking your partner for mercy because you are helpless.

So in other words, no. You're not.
You don't need to break their arm for them to know you could have. I don't need to knock them out for them to know I could have.
Same same.

 

[Hanzou]

So in other words, no. You're not.
You don't need to break their arm for them to know you could have. I don't need to knock them out for them to know I could have.
Same same.

Yeah, except it's not. There is no "if I hit them hard enough they know I could have knocked them out". That's utter nonsense. You either knock them out or you dont knock them out. What you're saying is skin to someone saying that they grabbed their arm, thus they could have broken it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't need to knock them out for them to know I could have.

The problem is in "control sparring", you won't experience "shirt catch on fire" feeling. The fear of being knock out is one price that you have to pay to experience a real fight.

To spar with plastic knifes (you can relax) is different from to spar with real knifes (you cannot relax). Old soldiers are more valuable than new soldiers because old soldiers have experience "killing".

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, a TKO would work too. The point is to be beaten to the point where you cant continue. Grappling arts have a mechanism that can do that without causing lasting damage, and that has always been its advantage over striking arts.

It really is a testament to the genius of Jigoro Kano.

Body shots.

 

[Hanzou]

Body shots.

Yeah, that's why I brought up Kyokushin. Getting blasted like that as you move up belts, and then finishing it off with a 30 vs 1 kumite to get your black belt will definitely build character.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, that's why I brought up Kyokushin. Getting blasted like that as you move up belts, and then finishing it off with a 30 vs 1 kumite to get your black belt will definitely build character.

Yeah. It is also what we do when we want to send someone a message.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The problem is in "control sparring", you won't experience "shirt catch on fire" feeling. The fear of being knock out is one price that you have to pay to experience a real fight.

To spar with plastic knifes (you can relax) is different from to spar with real knifes (you cannot relax). Old soldiers are more valuable than new soldiers because old soldiers have experience "killing".

I don't get any such feeling when I'm in a real fight. After, I might have all sorts of reactions. But not during.
As for 'control sparring'... I don't know how you're defining it. I'm certainly not talking about tap tap stuff. Maybe 75-80%. You feel it. It hurts. But nothing gets broken.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just like control sparring and full contact sparring, there is difference between rock climbing with rope,

and rock climbing without rope.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So in other words, no. You're not.
You don't need to break their arm for them to know you could have. I don't need to knock them out for them to know I could have.
Same same.

I don’t find all sparring partners are that convincing to each other.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just like control sparring and full contact sparring, there is difference between rock climbing with rope,

and rock climbing without rope.

I’ve done both. The difference is less than I expected.

 

[Buka]

I don’t know how anybody else’s spars in their striking art, but in sparring that I know, when you’re finished with the sparring session everybody involved knows who was better that day.

Kind of hard not to.

 

[Hanzou]

I don’t know how anybody else’s spars in their striking art, but in sparring that I know, when you’re finished with the sparring session everybody involved knows who was better that day.

Kind of hard not to.

Yeah, but nothing beats the look on the face of a huge burly man when he got tapped-out multiple times by a woman half his size.

Well, nothing except those big burly men getting choked out and then pooping in their shorts (true story).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don’t know how anybody else’s spars in their striking art,

I had trained seriously full contact for 8 months (4 times a week, 2 hours per section). During that 8 months, my body was always in pain. One thing that I had learned was I didn't mind to get punched on my body. But I tried to protect my head as much as I could. That was how I got the "rhino guard" idea.

It's good feeling that when my opponent tries to knock me down but I'm still standing.

 

[Buka]

Yeah, but nothing beats the look on the face of a huge burly man when he got tapped-out multiple times by a woman half his size.

Well, nothing except those big burly men getting choked out and then pooping in their shorts (true story).

I’ve enjoyed that as well while grappling. But what I’ve enjoyed just as much was when the big, burly guy throws something at you, especially with intent, and you kick his feet out and smack him upside the head WHILE he’s going down.

And that look stays there as he’s getting up. Priceless.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’ve enjoyed that as well while grappling. But what I’ve enjoyed just as much was when the big, burly guy throws something at you, especially with intent, and you kick his feet out and smack him upside the head WHILE he’s going down.

And that look stays there as he’s getting up. Priceless.

In Chinese wrestling, nothing can be more fun than to throw your opponent down while you are still standing on single leg balance and look at him.