Perceiving The Elephant

[dvcochran]

Well nothing is perfect so of course it's true. The problem is that too many people treat this as some sort of religion instead of what it actually is. I've been in situations where people think you've committed a crime if you alter a technique during sparring practice.



Which begs the question; Wouldnt a more modern application be more applicable in a modern setting than a traditional application designed for a completely different time/society?

My point is if the technique is correct they are the same thing. Painting a black horse white doesn't make it a black horse. Trying to differentiate the technique by time/society (especially society) makes zero sense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Its simply the nature of martial arts that come from the East. There's a certain mysticism to them that people simply can't shake. Magic is more attractive than reality, so you believe that the Asian founder of your MA style could beat 100 armed Manchu warriors with his Monkey Kung Fu when in reality you put that guy on the mat and he'd probably get dropped on his head by your average high school wrestler.

I think it's common there, but I don't think it's inherent in them. My perception is that it's an oddity that happened when they changed cultures (East to West) without much adjustment of approach. Sometimes it was mysticism, but more often it was the overblown assumption of what a "black belt" or "master" was, assuming an infallibility of knowledge. Most of the good martial artists I know - regardless of the origin of their art - take a similar view: learn the techniques as closely as you can to what's taught until you understand them, then figure out how to make them work best. That often includes making adjustments to techniques. I think it's unfortunate that so many instructors still think it's the instructor's job to manage that change - that's best done by active students who've gained enough knowledge, IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was taught the opposite. If you have no ability to change whatever you have learned, you are just a copy machine, no more and no less.

Not what I was taught by some instructors, but absolutely my opinion.

 

[Flying Crane]

Let's discuss this with a concrete example. I cannot figure out any meaningful application for it. What do you think this move is for?

The possibility are:

1. There is a meaningful application that I have not figure out yet.
2. This move was done wrong in order to hide something.
3. This move was taught wrong.
4. This move was created wrong.
5. ...

What's the truth?

This is a very very short snippet of movement, clearly taken from something larger. It may be too small of a piece to be able to interpret a direct application. You might have identified a piece of something larger that does have application.

At the very least though, it is practicing moving/turning with the body in unison.

 

[dvcochran]

I think it's common there, but I don't think it's inherent in them. My perception is that it's an oddity that happened when they changed cultures (East to West) without much adjustment of approach. Sometimes it was mysticism, but more often it was the overblown assumption of what a "black belt" or "master" was, assuming an infallibility of knowledge. Most of the good martial artists I know - regardless of the origin of their art - take a similar view: learn the techniques as closely as you can to what's taught until you understand them, then figure out how to make them work best. That often includes making adjustments to techniques. I think it's unfortunate that so many instructors still think it's the instructor's job to manage that change - that's best done by active students who've gained enough knowledge, IMO.

I think it takes both the student and the instructor. And this is the emphasis of the whole thread. IMHO, Peoples bodies and the subsequent mechanics are different. So the student has to learn, adapt, and change their body to be able to perform a technique to their best ability. It is the instructors job to teach them the technique within the boundaries of their physique and their current ability, always striving for perfection. Yes perfection. If not, why do we work so hard?
One of the hardest jobs for the instructor. It takes a lot of time and physical feedback and honest mental maturation to get to that experience level on any one technique, let alone putting them all together to make a form.

 

[Hanzou]

My point is if the technique is correct they are the same thing. Painting a black horse white doesn't make it a black horse. Trying to differentiate the technique by time/society (especially society) makes zero sense.

If the technique is correct. However, the technique might not be correct and is simply there because of tradition, which means it may need to be revamped or adapted. Sometimes the system itself might need an overhaul because it has a good chasis but it could use a better engine. The evolution of Jujitsu, Judo, and BJJ are an example of this process.

Some systems (typically western MAs) embrace that mindset while other systems (typically Eastern MAs) think their founder already solved the fight puzzle and no changes need to be made. The latter sounds absolutely crazy when you think about it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the technique is correct. However, the technique might not be correct and is simply there because of tradition, which means it may need to be revamped or adapted. Sometimes the system itself might need an overhaul because it has a good chasis but it could use a better engine. The evolution of Jujitsu, Judo, and BJJ are an example of this process.

Some systems (typically western MAs) embrace that mindset while other systems (typically Eastern MAs) think their founder already solved the fight puzzle and no changes need to be made. The latter sounds absolutely crazy when you think about it.

I wonder if that is true of Eastern MA when in their native culture, or if that's the result of carrying it across cultures without proper adjustment and often by less-experienced instructors.

 

[Hanzou]

I wonder if that is true of Eastern MA when in their native culture, or if that's the result of carrying it across cultures without proper adjustment and often by less-experienced instructors.

Considering what is occurring with Chinese MA and its dealings with MMA in China I think it's a feature of anciet MAs coming out of Asia. However you could very well be correct. There is a lot of stomach churning Asia worship going on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Considering what is occurring with Chinese MA and its dealings with MMA in China I think it's a feature of anciet MAs coming out of Asia. However you could very well be correct. There is a lot of stomach churning Asia worship going on.

And it's not really limited to the "ancient" arts. It happens to some extent in newer ones, too - though they often (as my primary art does) refer back to the age of the art they derive from (even when that age is questionable).

 

[Steve]

My point is if the technique is correct they are the same thing. Painting a black horse white doesn't make it a black horse. Trying to differentiate the technique by time/society (especially society) makes zero sense.

Wouldn't the painted horse still be black? Or are you saying it would be white?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wouldn't the painted horse still be black? Or are you saying it would be white?

I think it was a typo - I think it was meant to say "doesn't make it a white horse." At least, that's how I read it the first time.

 

[dvcochran]

If the technique is correct. However, the technique might not be correct and is simply there because of tradition, which means it may need to be revamped or adapted. Sometimes the system itself might need an overhaul because it has a good chasis but it could use a better engine. The evolution of Jujitsu, Judo, and BJJ are an example of this process.

Some systems (typically western MAs) embrace that mindset while other systems (typically Eastern MAs) think their founder already solved the fight puzzle and no changes need to be made. The latter sounds absolutely crazy when you think about it.

You know, there are very few people left that fit your opinion of eastern MA's. That description eastern MA is what is just crazy.

 

[dvcochran]

I think it was a typo - I think it was meant to say "doesn't make it a white horse." At least, that's how I read it the first time.

Oops, I did not catch my mistake. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[drop bear]

You know, there are very few people left that fit your opinion of eastern MA's. That description eastern MA is what is just crazy.

Culture of how they varify success remains. You can update your system all you want. But if you are not held accountable then you may not be improving.

 

[Steve]

I think it was a typo - I think it was meant to say "doesn't make it a white horse." At least, that's how I read it the first time.

Okay. I understamd now. So tell me why the black horse that's been painted white isn't white?

 

[CB Jones]

Okay. I understamd now. So tell me why the black horse that's been painted white isn't white?

Wondering this myself

 

[Hanzou]

You know, there are very few people left that fit your opinion of eastern MA's. That description eastern MA is what is just crazy.

I disagree. Take Aikido and Ueshiba for example. I'm sure there are many Aikidoka who don't believe there is anyone better than Ueshiba at Aikido. I'm sure there's plenty of Wing Chunners out there who don't believe that anyone is better at Wing Chun than Yip Man. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a Bjj exponent who doesn't believe that the modern elite BJJ black belts wouldn't wipe the floor with Helio Gracie and the Gracie Boys.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree. Take Aikido and Ueshiba for example. I'm sure there are many Aikidoka who don't believe there is anyone better than Ueshiba at Aikido. I'm sure there's plenty of Wing Chunners out there who don't believe that anyone is better at Wing Chun than Yip Man. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a Bjj exponent who doesn't believe that the modern elite BJJ black belts wouldn't wipe the floor with Helio Gracie and the Gracie Boys.

I see a fair bit of that from some folks in TMA. It's something that individual instructors foster when they don't ever really treat anyone at the school as a peer and create the impression/expectation that they are personally the best in the school at everything. I'm not even sure why that's a desirable thing - I'd love to have students who are better than me at some stuff. I keep hoping I'll develop a student who is overall better than me before my body degrades and makes that too low a bar to set.

And if that can happen, realistically, to me with a small program, why wouldn't it be likely to happen to someone like Ueshiba, with many thousands of people practicing the art he started?

 

[dvcochran]

I disagree. Take Aikido and Ueshiba for example. I'm sure there are many Aikidoka who don't believe there is anyone better than Ueshiba at Aikido. I'm sure there's plenty of Wing Chunners out there who don't believe that anyone is better at Wing Chun than Yip Man. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a Bjj exponent who doesn't believe that the modern elite BJJ black belts wouldn't wipe the floor with Helio Gracie and the Gracie Boys.

I don't doubt that is true and a valid argument. Two big variables is the age of many MA's. Akido by comparison is not that old and I have zero experience there so I have no opinion. The other is the sheer number of practitioners. I am sure it is true in BJJ or MMA that there are those exceptions who believe theirs is the best or only way. So it is condescending when you rail on TMA when the same arguments can be made in FMA. You don't care, that is fine but you need to hear it. TMA is so much more rounded as it trains the body, mind & spirit (go ahead and laugh) it is only natural that it takes longer and is more comprehensive.

 

[dvcochran]

Okay. I understamd now. So tell me why the black horse that's been painted white isn't white?

It is the creamy filled center.