Perceiving The Elephant

[skribs]

In martial arts when you do technique you are learning the wrong technique.

Because you are copying someone elses technique.

I'm not sure of anything you can learn without copying someone's technique.

Language, walking, martial arts, musical instruments, writing, typing, throwing a ball, swinging a bat, playing video games...every single thing humans do is learned by copying someone else.

Later on, they may modify the techniques for themselves, and some people even innovate, but everyone is copying someone else when they start to learn something. That's how humans teach.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure of anything you can learn without copying someone's technique.

Language, walking, martial arts, musical instruments, writing, typing, throwing a ball, swinging a bat, playing video games...every single thing humans do is learned by copying someone else.

Later on, they may modify the techniques for themselves, and some people even innovate, but everyone is copying someone else when they start to learn something. That's how humans teach.

Correct.

 

[skribs]

Correct.

Then I'm not sure what the point of your previous post was.

 

[TSDTexan]

Let's not open the door to every crazy idea out there that anyone can invent and profit from.

Ok. So there is kind of two ideas at play here.

We can have a functional expert who performs well using a method that might be a bit left of field. (hand weights don't help hand speed/strength. But Tripple G does it.)

And we have a theoretical expert who has a specialized method. (David wolf and avocados for cancer treatment. And hey what does a Surgical oncologist know about avocados to be dismissing that)

Form follows function.

Form also follows dysfunction.
this is proved out with the following observation:
When the biomechanics are wrong, the form is sloppy.

 

[dvcochran]

A classic story involves blind men encountering an elephant. Each described what they perceived with their hands, and decided that they knew what an elephant was based on their perception. We laugh at the story because the blind men are all wrong, and we can easily know this because we can 'see' an elephant.

Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia

Similarly, people with sight might see a martial art technique and decide that they know what it is, what it is for, and decided whether or not it is of value, without any true understanding of the true reasons behind the technique.

This gives rise to several errors. The first is obvious - there is a technique which will be rejected by some because they do not 'see' how it could possibly work. The second is more insidious - it involves those trained but apparently not to the extent that they grasp the concept either. These will also claim that a technique, or even a style of martial arts, is valueless because they either could not grasp it or it was not taught to them by a person who understood it.

I have heard this expressed in many contexts, usually over the traditional martial arts.

Kata is one. Individual techniques or training methods. Ways of standing and moving. Even basic concepts like respect shown on the training floor via traditions like bowing and terms of respect.

If you are a student being shown these things, I would urge you to show patience and trust your instructors. If it is not becoming clear to you, ask questions, seek clarification. A competent instructor should always be able and willing to demonstrate the 'why' of what you are training.

If you're an instructor, I hope that you understand these things and are passing them along as best you can.

And if you're just an observer, or a specialist in another style, who thinks they know what a kata or a technique or a practice is for, I would urge you to try to find out more before condemning it out of hand.

Otherwise, the elephant is just a snake because you touched its tail and think you understand it.

Very well said. The party line that someone else's style is flawed is just wrong. Taking a negative attitude toward a fellow Martial Artist can have a very bad effect on someone new to MA. Very counter to the traditional MA's I have been exposed to. We should do our best to think and reflect first and try to treat everyone in the Martial Spirit, having and more importantly showing respect. It is infectious.

 

[dvcochran]

Ill add that sometimes things are simply outside the realm of one’s experience. When that is true, perhaps one ought to resist proclaiming his uneducated opinion as fact.

Sometimes ya just don’t know what ya just don’t know.

Welcome back Bill. As you can see, some things haven’t changed.

Hence my favorite saying when starting a meeting: "Let's get all the liars in the same room". Sometimes people get really offended because they do not understand. Lets get all the ideas on the table and sort them out. Some will be good, some will be removed from the equation. Making this known from the start really makes a meeting go smoother most of the time. I am certain we seldom touch the whole elephant.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Similarly, people with sight might see a martial art technique and decide that they know what it is, what it is for, and decided whether or not it is of value, without any true understanding of the true reasons behind the technique.

Let's discuss this with a concrete example. I cannot figure out any meaningful application for it. What do you think this move is for?

The possibility are:

1. There is a meaningful application that I have not figure out yet.
2. This move was done wrong in order to hide something.
3. This move was taught wrong.
4. This move was created wrong.
5. ...

What's the truth?

 

[dvcochran]

Let's discuss this with a concrete example. I cannot figure out any meaningful application for it. What do you think this move is for?

The possibility are:

1. There is a meaningful application that I have not figure out yet.
2. This move was done wrong in order to hide something.
3. This move was taught wrong.
4. This move was created wrong.
5. ...

What's the truth?

Looks like Boris Karloff portraying the original Frankenstein.

 

[Hanzou]

There is nothing wrong with questioning the questionable, and pointing out obvious and clear flaws in a visibly flawed methodology. If someone points out that there's a clear disconnect between kata and the actual fighting form, that's a discrepancy that needs to be accounted for because it is clear and evident. To say that that person merely doesn't understand what they're seeing is nothing more than a lazy excuse to avoid the truth.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let's discuss this with a concrete example. I cannot figure out any meaningful application for it. What do you think this move is for?

The possibility are:

1. There is a meaningful application that I have not figure out yet.
2. This move was done wrong in order to hide something.
3. This move was taught wrong.
4. This move was created wrong.
5. ...

What's the truth?

I'd tend toward "5. This is an exercise, not a technique." Though that could still include 1-4, because we'd have to figure out what the purpose of the exercise is.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd tend toward "5. This is an exercise, not a technique." Though that could still include 1-4, because we'd have to figure out what the purpose of the exercise is.

Will you be able to see the application from this? What's the difference?

 

[drop bear]

Then I'm not sure what the point of your previous post was.

Also correct.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Will you be able to see the application from this? What's the difference?

I'd give the same answer, taking it in that small snippet. I can invent an application for it, but I don't know what the purpose of the form is. So, to me, it looks like an exercise. The motion has application - with a little tweak, I can even give it application from something I already do, but that's a backwards approach, IMO.

Of course, I'd say the same about almost any form I don't know, and can't immediately recognize the techniques in. Forms are tools, and they can be used in whatever way we find them useful, but trying to divine their purpose seem, to me, to be a waste of effort.

 

[dvcochran]

There is nothing wrong with questioning the questionable, and pointing out obvious and clear flaws in a visibly flawed methodology. If someone points out that there's a clear disconnect between kata and the actual fighting form, that's a discrepancy that needs to be accounted for because it is clear and evident. To say that that person merely doesn't understand what they're seeing is nothing more than a lazy excuse to avoid the truth.

You are correct to question. But you seem to go in to your question already knowing there is something wrong or imperfect. While that of course could be true, it could just as easily mean what you see someone doing is being performed incorrectly either through their own fault or from their teaching. It does not conclusively mean the technique or method is flawed. It is harder for anyone to see another way and not question it. But for the process of questioning to have any value you have to investigate all sides. I think the better argument for more modern training methods, MMA for example, is to acknowledge the root of a technique and reconcile that you simply practice a modern application of the method.

 

[Steve]

If being really good at kata is the goal, I think this all makes sense. I declare this thread ironic in the name of the queen.

 

[Hanzou]

You are correct to question. But you seem to go in to your question already knowing there is something wrong or imperfect. While that of course could be true, it could just as easily mean what you see someone doing is being performed incorrectly either through their own fault or from their teaching.

Well nothing is perfect so of course it's true. The problem is that too many people treat this as some sort of religion instead of what it actually is. I've been in situations where people think you've committed a crime if you alter a technique during sparring practice.

It does not conclusively mean the technique or method is flawed. It is harder for anyone to see another way and not question it. But for the process of questioning to have any value you have to investigate all sides. I think the better argument for more modern training methods, MMA for example, is to acknowledge the root of a technique and reconcile that you simply practice a modern application of the method.

Which begs the question; Wouldnt a more modern application be more applicable in a modern setting than a traditional application designed for a completely different time/society?

 

[Bruce7]

It is only natural that we defend what we know and are suspect of something different.
Walking an H form may seem silly to most people,
because that was not the way they were taught.
If they had been taught the main purpose of walking the forms was to learn balance.
To be able to stop at any point in the H form and be in balance.
It might make more sense.
Walking H forms is not taught today, because students were not patient enough and could not see the benefit.
So a better method for the student was develop,
of teaching stances and punches at the same time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've been in situations where people think you've committed a crime if you alter a technique during sparring practice.

I've seen that, too. It drives me batty.

 

[Hanzou]

I've seen that, too. It drives me batty.

Its simply the nature of martial arts that come from the East. There's a certain mysticism to them that people simply can't shake. Magic is more attractive than reality, so you believe that the Asian founder of your MA style could beat 100 armed Manchu warriors with his Monkey Kung Fu when in reality you put that guy on the mat and he'd probably get dropped on his head by your average high school wrestler.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

people think you've committed a crime if you alter a technique during sparring practice.

I was taught the opposite. If you have no ability to change whatever you have learned, you are just a copy machine, no more and no less.