Perceiving The Elephant

[Steve]

It is the creamy filled center.

You're being flippant but the question is genuine (both literally and in the context of the metaphor).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You're being flippant but the question is genuine (both literally and in the context of the metaphor).

For literal, because if you wash the horse well enough, the white goes away, and the brown never would. Hopefully that helps with the metaphor too, but I cant help you there

 

[Steve]

For literal, because if you wash the horse well enough, the white goes away, and the brown never would. Hopefully that helps with the metaphor too, but I cant help you there

So if you paint a chair white, it's not really white because the wood underneath is brown? That sounds a little silly to me.

Figuratively, context matters. This entire thread disregards context. Like a horse that was black, but is now white, and could be black again.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So if you paint a chair white, it's not really white because the wood underneath is brown? That sounds a little silly to me.

Figuratively, context matters. This entire thread disregards context. Like a horse that was black, but is now white, and could be black again.

To me, the chair's not really white. There are a few at my home that are red, but half-peeled so you see the brown wood underneath. I have to repaint them every so often to make them red. IMO, if I have to repaint them every few years, they're not red, they just appear to be red.

Again, none of that is for the metaphorical or figurative aspects. Just an answer to the literal question.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't doubt that is true and a valid argument. Two big variables is the age of many MA's. Akido by comparison is not that old and I have zero experience there so I have no opinion. The other is the sheer number of practitioners. I am sure it is true in BJJ or MMA that there are those exceptions who believe theirs is the best or only way. So it is condescending when you rail on TMA when the same arguments can be made in FMA. You don't care, that is fine but you need to hear it. TMA is so much more rounded as it trains the body, mind & spirit (go ahead and laugh) it is only natural that it takes longer and is more comprehensive.

In BJJ or MMA there is a way to prove that your way is the best or only way. If you're not proving it, people don't take you seriously when you make such claims.

BTW, BJJ trains the mind, body, and spirit as well. IMO it does it better because it has an inherent ego check that is sorely missing in many of the traditional styles.

 

[Buka]

As for the horse analogy, it actually fits rather well in Martial Arts discussions, because it complicates the idea of the horse itself. Just as Martial Artists like to complicate, oh, I don't know, everything.

Just ride that sucker.

 

[dvcochran]

In BJJ or MMA there is a way to prove that your way is the best or only way. If you're not proving it, people don't take you seriously when you make such claims.

BTW, BJJ trains the mind, body, and spirit as well. IMO it does it better because it has an inherent ego check that is sorely missing in many of the traditional styl

In BJJ or MMA there is a way to prove that your way is the best or only way. If you're not proving it, people don't take you seriously when you make such claims.

BTW, BJJ trains the mind, body, and spirit as well. IMO it does it better because it has an inherent ego check that is sorely missing in many of the traditional styles.

My best guess it you have had exposure so some powder puff TMA school and it left a bad impression. Sure, I believe there are BJJ schools that, because the instructor teaches an eclectic mix of MA style influences, can say they teach body, mind, & spirit. So at best, it is different school to school. And the circular argument begin.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In BJJ or MMA there is a way to prove that your way is the best or only way. If you're not proving it, people don't take you seriously when you make such claims.

BTW, BJJ trains the mind, body, and spirit as well. IMO it does it better because it has an inherent ego check that is sorely missing in many of the traditional styles.

You're confounding things, Hanzou. There are traditional styles that have competition, and competition is the factor you're actually talking about. Lack of competition happens in recent styles, too. Where there's no competition, people have to work harder to keep that ego in check (especially for the instructor).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My best guess it you have had exposure so some powder puff TMA school and it left a bad impression. Sure, I believe there are BJJ schools that, because the instructor teaches an eclectic mix of MA style influences, can say they teach body, mind, & spirit. So at best, it is different school to school. And the circular argument begin.

It wouldn't have to be a "powder puff" school, by any stretch, DV. Ego stuff is not at all uncommon within the MA, and most of my experience is in the more traditional side of things. And I don't think someone has to teach anything more than basic BJJ to be able to say they help develop mind, body, and spirit. Unless you and I have very different definitions of "spirit", a coach working in any sport can help develop all three if he coaches good teamwork, encourages leadership, keeps egos (including his) in check, etc.

 

[Hanzou]

My best guess it you have had exposure so some powder puff TMA school and it left a bad impression. Sure, I believe there are BJJ schools that, because the instructor teaches an eclectic mix of MA style influences, can say they teach body, mind, & spirit. So at best, it is different school to school. And the circular argument begin.

Nope, it's your standard run of the mill BJJ.

You're confounding things, Hanzou. There are traditional styles that have competition, and competition is the factor you're actually talking about. Lack of competition happens in recent styles, too. Where there's no competition, people have to work harder to keep that ego in check (especially for the instructor).

It's not the competitive aspect, it's the sparring aspect. In BJJ you completely submit to your partner in the roll. While other arts have sparring and competition, it usually goes back and forth with no one completely giving in to their partner's technique unless there's an accidental knock out.

When you tap in BJJ you're acknowledging your defeat, and that has a pretty wild effect on people's ego because not everyone can accept the fact that they suck. I've seen people refuse to tap and end up getting choked out or a limb broken. I've seen regulars who avoid the roll because they don't want to get tapped, get the confidence to roll, get tapped repeatedly and never return.

It takes a stronger mind and spirit to stick around and get tapped over and over again, and it's partially what makes BJJ such an effective system.

 

[Martial D]

Nope, it's your standard run of the mill BJJ.



It's not the competitive aspect, it's the sparring aspect. In BJJ you completely submit to your partner in the roll. While other arts have sparring and competition, it usually goes back and forth with no one completely giving in to their partner's technique unless there's an accidental knock out.

When you tap in BJJ you're acknowledging your defeat, and that has a pretty wild effect on people's ego because not everyone can accept the fact that they suck. I've seen people refuse to tap and end up getting choked out or a limb broken. I've seen regulars who avoid the roll because they don't want to get tapped, get the confidence to roll, get tapped repeatedly and never return.

It takes a stronger mind and spirit to stick around and get tapped over and over again, and it's partially what makes BJJ such an effective system.

Oh man, you got that right. Myself, I've never minded tapping. Some of the guys I roll with are wizards and I'm grateful for that. Yet, it's a pretty regular event for wounded egos to lead to arguments and quitting.

At this point I don't even bother learning names till their third or fourth class.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope, it's your standard run of the mill BJJ.



It's not the competitive aspect, it's the sparring aspect. In BJJ you completely submit to your partner in the roll. While other arts have sparring and competition, it usually goes back and forth with no one completely giving in to their partner's technique unless there's an accidental knock out.

When you tap in BJJ you're acknowledging your defeat, and that has a pretty wild effect on people's ego because not everyone can accept the fact that they suck. I've seen people refuse to tap and end up getting choked out or a limb broken. I've seen regulars who avoid the roll because they don't want to get tapped, get the confidence to roll, get tapped repeatedly and never return.

It takes a stronger mind and spirit to stick around and get tapped over and over again, and it's partially what makes BJJ such an effective system.

I agree. When I speak of competition, I include internal and informal competition - sparring to win, even when it's light sparring (as opposed to the kind of sparring/rolling that is just to try some stuff out).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh man, you got that right. Myself, I've never minded tapping. Some of the guys I roll with are wizards and I'm grateful for that. Yet, it's a pretty regular event for wounded egos to lead to arguments and quitting.

At this point I don't even bother learning names till their third or fourth class.

Having someone beat you with something that feels like magic is almost as much fun as managing one day to defeat them.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree. When I speak of competition, I include internal and informal competition - sparring to win, even when it's light sparring (as opposed to the kind of sparring/rolling that is just to try some stuff out).

I know, but I'm pointing out to you that there's a difference in the mentality of the two types of sparring. When I did sparring in Karate there was always this bubble around me where I felt safe and I would sit back and exchange technique. Even if I was against someone who was better than me, I never completely submitted to that person, and since it was light contact, I never got the sense that I was beaten. It really is a completely different animal than what you experience in a Roll. The roll ends when one person has surrendered to another person, and the act of surrendering can make you feel EXTREMELY vulnerable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know, but I'm pointing out to you that there's a difference in the mentality of the two types of sparring. When I did sparring in Karate there was always this bubble around me where I felt safe and I would sit back and exchange technique. Even if I was against someone who was better than me, I never completely submitted to that person, and since it was light contact, I never got the sense that I was beaten. It really is a completely different animal than what you experience in a Roll. The roll ends when one person has surrendered to another person, and the act of surrendering can make you feel EXTREMELY vulnerable.

Agreed. We can safely go a lot further in grappling, in general, during class than with striking.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I know, but I'm pointing out to you that there's a difference in the mentality of the two types of sparring. When I did sparring in Karate there was always this bubble around me where I felt safe and I would sit back and exchange technique. Even if I was against someone who was better than me, I never completely submitted to that person, and since it was light contact, I never got the sense that I was beaten. It really is a completely different animal than what you experience in a Roll. The roll ends when one person has surrendered to another person, and the act of surrendering can make you feel EXTREMELY vulnerable.

The 1st time that you step into the boxing ring, you feel that your opponent tries to knock you down ASAP and you also try to knock him down ASAP. That's the only time that you can feel fighting is like "shirt catch on fire". On the wrestling mat, you won't have that feeling.

IMO, everybody should fight "golden glove boxing" at least once in his life time. He will feel that he is fighting against animal and not against human being. He will experience the "shirt catch on fire" feeling.

 

[Steve]

To me, the chair's not really white. There are a few at my home that are red, but half-peeled so you see the brown wood underneath. I have to repaint them every so often to make them red. IMO, if I have to repaint them every few years, they're not red, they just appear to be red.

Again, none of that is for the metaphorical or figurative aspects. Just an answer to the literal question.

Oh, come on. Really? Sounds like a Abbot and Costello sketch.

"Hey, have a seat in the brown chair."
"Which one? You mean the red one?"
"No, it's brown... just painted red, but I consider it to be brown because I have to repaint it every so often. It just appears to be red."

Come on.

 

[Steve]

I agree. When I speak of competition, I include internal and informal competition - sparring to win, even when it's light sparring (as opposed to the kind of sparring/rolling that is just to try some stuff out).

When I speak of competition, I include all kinds of things, from kata to visualization to shadow boxing to eating sushi at the baseball game. Why not? Even if it's bad sushi, it can still be competitive.

 

[drop bear]

So examples of training mind body and spirit in MMA and combat sports in general.

Because if it exists it can be found on YouTube.

And some really good ninjitsu.............
Oh wait.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh, come on. Really? Sounds like a Abbot and Costello sketch.

"Hey, have a seat in the brown chair."
"Which one? You mean the red one?"
"No, it's brown... just painted red, but I consider it to be brown because I have to repaint it every so often. It just appears to be red."

Come on.

That sounds like an awesome sketch. I might write out a full script for it at some point.