Pepper spray in a black belt test?

[Bill Mattocks]

It reminds me of the sake test. Hours of sparring with shots between rounds.

Never heard of it, although of course I have heard many stories of drunken karate fights, etc. However, as a diabetic, I no longer touch alcohol. If that were a requirement, count me out. I guess I don't get promoted, because I'm not doing it. Don't know what it proves, except that anyone can be a drunk.

 

[Thesemindz]

Never heard of it, although of course I have heard many stories of drunken karate fights, etc. However, as a diabetic, I no longer touch alcohol. If that were a requirement, count me out. I guess I don't get promoted, because I'm not doing it. Don't know what it proves, except that anyone can be a drunk.

Oh we don't require it. It's just another story I've heard. But I could see it's value. Again, I think it's cultural. If you are part of a drinking culture, and you will be drunk, and getting in fights, on a regular basis, it's probably a good idea to train that way. But mostly I've seen it portrayed in the same vein as the pepper spray thing. As a kind of ritual. Part of an initiation. Something to brag about. Maybe stupid, or at least unnecessary, but then all rituals kind of are. I don't require either of these from my karate students, but I've done dumber things with my best karate friends. Because that's part of karate too. At least for me.


-Rob

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

First off I like extreme training! So for me having pepper spray in the face would be another way to pressure test what I do. I have been pepper sprayed a number of times while going through training to be able to carry it work related as well as having been maced and cannistered (the worst) going through the police academy. The more you have it done the less it effects you!

(at least in my case and everyone else I know)

If a student wanted to feel the effects of pepper spray to know that they can still function after being sprayed I think that is a good thing. However, having children do it as part of a test is well probably not very prudent and could be very dangerous! It I think is irresponsible! I would also question this instructor based on his training in this field? It would not be good if he had no training in this area! How does he account for people with health risks, asthma, etc.

 

[Thesemindz]

If a student wanted to feel the effects of pepper spray to know that they can still function after being sprayed I think that is a good thing. However, having children do it as part of a test is well probably not very prudent and could be very dangerous! It I think is irresponsible! I would also question this instructor based on his training in this field? It would not be good if he had no training in this area! How does he account for people with health risks, asthma, etc.

Good question. Is this a guy with training in professional security or law enforcement or RBSD? Or is it just some dude spraying off the shelf pepper spray in the face of six year olds? Those could be two very different situations.


-Rob

 

[Brian King]

Agree with Brian R. VanCise. I see no problem with it as a some sort of voluntary opportunity for the adults to be sprayed and taught how to keep calm and working. Whether action professional or tourist in the wrong spot, we should be aware of the smells, and the affects of the different sprays for awareness exploration and experiences. Undecided about the children, it would depend on their age and how the spraying was administered. Voluntary, with their parents present- perhaps a walk thru a cloud puff. A familiarization if you will. The training should leave the students with an understanding of the tool not a fear of it. The training should provide the students tools to deal with fear and panic, suffocation and blindness are both primal fears and as such interesting to train and explore.

So, long winded opinion summarized. Depends if the test is administered in some kind of bravado tough it out thru a fear inducing bonding ritual ...not so much. If the test is administered to test the prior training and reinforce healthy survival tactics and strategies, no problem.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Kacey]

First off I like extreme training! So for me having pepper spray in the face would be another way to pressure test what I do. I have been pepper sprayed a number of times while going through training to be able to carry it work related as well as having been maced and cannistered (the worst) going through the police academy. The more you have it done the less it effects you!

(at least in my case and everyone else I know)

If a student wanted to feel the effects of pepper spray to know that they can still function after being sprayed I think that is a good thing. However, having children do it as part of a test is well probably not very prudent and could be very dangerous! It I think is irresponsible! I would also question this instructor based on his training in this field? It would not be good if he had no training in this area! How does he account for people with health risks, asthma, etc.

I agree - while there are advantages to knowing how well you can still defend yourself in a cloud of pepper spray, there are a lot of variables unaccounted for in the given scenario. As a voluntary, adult-only (or at least 16+ with written parental approval) I could see it - but I'm allergic to the propellant used in a lot of sprays, and the reaction is a lot worse than just the pepper spray.

 

[Haris Lamboo Faisal]

I believe that it was the instructor's vindictiveness and not an actual part of the test though i don't have all the facts and the case could be that they do indeed test everyone the same way which i highly doubt , i See no point to it. maybe the kid was a bully ... maybe the instructor had some vendetta against the kid being tested ... either way the only people carrying pepper sprays are women and police officers or security gaurds .... my point here is that as can be seen by the effects of pepper spray illustrated in the video above i would never condone such an act ... if you want to teach someone to defend themselves against a street thug etc pepper spray training is the least of your concerns defence against baseball bats and crowbars would be a more appropriate test imo.

EDIT: the guy describes the effects of being pepper sprayed and you should probably hear them for yourselves. No way a Dan test can be given that way.

 

[MJS]

Hello. After leaving my school of 9 years for personal reasons, I started looking for a new school. There was another in town that I gave a look. I spoke with the man who runs it. He answered all questions up front in a straightforward manner, no contracts, great facility. All of the philosophies he gave I agreed with.

However, as I sat in the lobby waiting for my first intro class, a parent was talking about how for the black belt test, a student is to be sprayed with pepper spray then made to perform techniques and spar. This is done for all prospective black belts, regardless of age. Even minors have to go through with it. I asked the instructor if this was true. He confirmed it.

I understand pepper spray is more painful than harmful, however there is a part of me that just screams that this instructor has a total lack of judgement. Having been through a black belt test before, I can totally understand the value in pushing someone past their mental and physical breaking point. At this point, though, I'm starting to see this as more hazing than testing. Thoughts?

Personally, I'd have rather seen the students at a physically exhausting state, and then have to perform the techs. IMO, the average MA student, unless they're fighting with the police, which they shouldn't be doing anyways, probably isn't going to have to deal with being sprayed.

Now, when I worked for the DOC, we as officers, had to be exposed to OC. Not a direct shot, just put in an enclosed room for a set amount of time. If you were testing to become an LT, then a direct shot was given.

So, that being said, I'm not seeing the logic in what this teacher is doing.

 

[OKenpo942]

This is stupid. OC spray on children? Come on! Poor judgement I'd say. Proves nothing of MA skill, IMO.

Oh well, I guess if the parents or kids don't like it, they can go elsewhere and still get quality instruction without being subjected or subjecting their kids to this kind of abuse.

James

 

[deadhand31]

http://www.dukatzacademy.com

This would be the website of the school. Take a look at the kid assistant instructors. I didn't see any black belts much younger than that, but still, this should show you the age range of the kids he's blasting in the face. It's a great facility for sure, but to me, going there would be like getting into a porsche with a drunk at the wheel.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

I agree - while there are advantages to knowing how well you can still defend yourself in a cloud of pepper spray, there are a lot of variables unaccounted for in the given scenario. As a voluntary, adult-only (or at least 16+ with written parental approval) I could see it - but I'm allergic to the propellant used in a lot of sprays, and the reaction is a lot worse than just the pepper spray.

Absolutely, under those conditions. However, it should be only done with 18+ and they have to sign a waiver and should be treated as a option only exercise.

In basic training, they expose soldiers to tear gas. It is only done as an exercise, so that soldiers do not freak out if they ever run into the stuff.

 

[chinto]

What is second degree test, being shot by a taser? I find it hard to believe minors getting black belts, even harder is they are subjected to pepper spray. I think there is a law against child abuse.

I agree with the above!

I also think that there is criminal liability in most states for any adult that is part of that school that helps in that testing in any way!!! what if the kid has undiagnosed pulmonary issues?? what about some one with pulmonary problems in the dojo to watch a relative or who ever test? I have seen buildings evacuated because some one discharged a pepper spray canister by accident!
With the wrong ailment it could be fatal!

Just plain crazy and wrong.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

What is the name of the school? Do they have a website?

AoG

 

[Aiki Lee]

I think training after being pepper sprayed in the face should be limited to a seminar and be entirely optional. Not everyone who practices martial arts wants to push every boundary and that should be respected.

Shodan tests should be difficult enough in any system without having to do that. It shouldn't be done in the test procedure but should be an option for RBSD training.

 

[Indie12]

Hello. After leaving my school of 9 years for personal reasons, I started looking for a new school. There was another in town that I gave a look. I spoke with the man who runs it. He answered all questions up front in a straightforward manner, no contracts, great facility. All of the philosophies he gave I agreed with.

However, as I sat in the lobby waiting for my first intro class, a parent was talking about how for the black belt test, a student is to be sprayed with pepper spray then made to perform techniques and spar. This is done for all prospective black belts, regardless of age. Even minors have to go through with it. I asked the instructor if this was true. He confirmed it.

I understand pepper spray is more painful than harmful, however there is a part of me that just screams that this instructor has a total lack of judgement. Having been through a black belt test before, I can totally understand the value in pushing someone past their mental and physical breaking point. At this point, though, I'm starting to see this as more hazing than testing. Thoughts?

I went through Pepper Spray training while attending Security and Corrections training. It's more of a painful irritation then harmful pain.

Well, we do use pepper spray in our training as well, but never on Minors, and in our program you have to have had at least 5 years of training with us prior to even going through the pre-program for pepper spray. So for me at least, it's a no/yes answer.

For a Black Belt Test? No, definitely not. A Martial Arts test shouldn't involve 'Use of Force' weapons or projectiles. Unless it's considered a Defensive Tactics or Hand2Hand Combat program.

Now should people learn how to fight and combat while blind folded or temporarily blinded? Yes, absolutely. But only under the strictest confidence and supervision!
And NEVER underage minors, no exceptions!

Who is this Instructor, I'll go and have a 'chat' with him!

 

[Indie12]

I think training after being pepper sprayed in the face should be limited to a seminar and be entirely optional. Not everyone who practices martial arts wants to push every boundary and that should be respected.

Shodan tests should be difficult enough in any system without having to do that. It shouldn't be done in the test procedure but should be an option for RBSD training.

I'd agree, a seminar or Defensive Tactics or Hand2Hand Combat Program, is more appropriate! And for civilian personnel should always be entirely optional.

Test procedure, not for Belt Promotion, but for certification in a required field, possibly!

 

[Indie12]

I agree with the above!

I also think that there is criminal liability in most states for any adult that is part of that school that helps in that testing in any way!!! what if the kid has undiagnosed pulmonary issues?? what about some one with pulmonary problems in the dojo to watch a relative or who ever test? I have seen buildings evacuated because some one discharged a pepper spray canister by accident!
With the wrong ailment it could be fatal!

Just plain crazy and wrong.

I'd agree, the criminal liability is higher in the use of propellants then others. Medical precautions should always take face!

 

[Indie12]

Absolutely, under those conditions. However, it should be only done with 18+ and they have to sign a waiver and should be treated as a option only exercise.

In basic training, they expose soldiers to tear gas. It is only done as an exercise, so that soldiers do not freak out if they ever run into the stuff.

Also for Basic Law Enforcement, usually Corrections/Security, they expose them to Pepper Spray or OC Spray. So that if you are disarmed and your spray is used against you, you won't freak out.

Soldiers are taught how to use Chemical Masks in using Tear Gas in the Gas Chamber, that's why the exercise takes place.

 

[Indie12]

Is the instructor a LEO? As part of defensive tactics training, LEO's in NM have to get pepper sprayed and fight off three guys in the REDMAN suit, while retaining their sidearm.

Pepper spray can be harmful to those with respiratory issues.

I can't see doing this to children at all-then again, I can't see awarding black belt rank to "children" at all........

I agree! Never on under-age youth, and definitely not rewarding 'Black Belts' to underage youth!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Anyone who makes OC exposure a 'mandatory' part of anything, except law enforcement, security or military training, is asking for severe criminal liability.

It should be optional......not a bad idea for adults interested in such, but should be voluntary.