Postgame Dancers Pepper Sprayed By Police

[Tez3]

They went through much worse in 60 minutes of football...trust me

Exactly, as I said we don't allow our under 18 MMA fighters head shots and in rugby, where there's no shoulder pads, helmets or protection other than groin guards and gumshields we are careful with the under 18s. In the adult games of rugby we've had people killed or left paralysed with broken necks so being careful with kids is the priority.

I'm not convinced that pepper spraying is a good way to control crowds. Crowds are a totally different entity to individuals, one moment of panic can easily lead to deaths even in a small crowd. You want people moving not running around like headless chickens and causing problems.

 

[Tez3]

http://drury.socialpsychology.org/
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/affiliates/panic/

An interesting study on crowds.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not convinced that pepper spraying is a good way to control crowds. Crowds are a totally different entity to individuals, one moment of panic can easily lead to deaths even in a small crowd. You want people moving not running around like headless chickens and causing problems.

Works well every time Ive used it on crowds. Its My prefered method of crowd control. Got a bar thats getting a little rowdy give a couple blasts of OC and boom bars closed for the night no more problems. Got a street corner you need cleared and you have asked them to move several times Opps my oc can went off how did that happen corners cleared for a while. Got a rowdy group of kids dancing in an exit spray 1 or 2 and poof exits clear. Got a loud mouth kid causing trouble give him a shot of oc he shuts up and goes home crying better then the alternitive of going hands on and him getting hurt.

Just like anything else in Police work and in life there is no 1 thing that works all the time. In this case it worked well and did what it was supposed to.

 

[Sukerkin]

Ballen, as a serious question, I can't for the life of me imagine how you can 'get away' with such behaviour. Police over here, even in perfectly legitimate execution of their duties, have to constrain themselves within pretty strict boundaries of tactic. If they stray beyond those bounds then they can find themselves in all sorts of trouble - I would have thought, given the litigious reputation of the USA, that it was even more so over on your side of the Pond?

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, as a serious question, I can't for the life of me imagine how you can 'get away' with such behaviour. Police over here, even in perfectly legitimate execution of their duties, have to constrain themselves within pretty strict boundaries of tactic. If they stray beyond those bounds then they can find themselves in all sorts of trouble - I would have thought, given the litigious reputation of the USA, that it was even more so over on your side of the Pond?

LOL I guess we need a sarcasim font. Of course I WAY OVER simplfied the examples I was using. I guess Ill have to give real life applications for you to understand what I ment
example #1 Get called to a rowdy bar. Walk in and see 4 or 5 guys fighting in the bar. Usually we send 2 cops to evey call. Go inside see the fight call for more units and order the fight to break up. When the drunk guys fighting refuse to stop my SOP says I am to try Spray before I put my hands on some one. So I deploy my OC spray at the guys fighting. Well using OC inside will cause others to smell it. They dont really feel any effects other then maybe a scratchy throat (Like cooking with alot of hot peppers and the smell is in the kitchen makes you cough a little). It fixes 2 problems First the fight is over 2nd the bar closes for the night so they can clean up the mess and air the bar out.

#2 was more of an inside joke. My department wears Leather duty gear. Some of the old timers put the OC can in the front of the belt and use it as an arm rest. Well the leather wears out and streaches and get soft. We got a call for bunch of dealers on the corner and I go out there and my post partner at the time was a 25 year PFC the kinda fat slob cop you see eatting donuts has mustard stains on his uniforms ect. Well he walks up to the crowd and assumes his possion of one arm resting on his gun which is hanging like barney fife due to his belt streaching over the years and his other resting on the leather OC can holder. Well some how the leather just got so soft he started spraying the can inside his belt. It cleared the corner and drenched him in OC before he realized what happened. It was very funny at the time.

#3 was in talking about the OP bunch of kids dancing after the game cop sprays a few and they all leave.

#4 was a punk kid prob 16 I guess acting a fool in front of his friends showing off yelling at a few of us that were busy arresting his buddy. He pulls his shirt off and starts saying he coming to help his friend and approaches in an agressive manner. So a quick little spray to his face he screams and runs off home. Alternative would have been he approaches us tries to fight us he gets slammed on the ground cuffed up and arrested. Now hes hurt, and arrested, and has that on his record his whole life when in reality all he did was run home jump in the shower and didnt have to deal with legal issues for the rest of his life.

My point was OC spray is not that bad. Some were making the case that its this terrible substance that just the sight of the stuff will cause mass panic and deaths in the streets. Its just not the case. Ive been sprayed countless times its not a big deal hurts for 5 or 10 min and its over. Ive been tased a few times for training and Id take OC over a taser anyday.

Sorry if I gave the impression I just ride around with fire extingushers full of OC spraying babies and nuns in the street.

 

[Sukerkin]

Ahhhh I see . Cheers and aye, the Net does need a Times New Sarcastic font big time :lol:.

 

[Carol]

Sorry if I gave the impression I just ride around with fire extingushers full of OC...

Oh! Oh! Does this mean I don't have to give mine back? I kinda like this size...you know, self defense and bicep curls, all while walking to your car

 

[jks9199]

Well... I'd take a Taser hit over OC any day. Taser's over in 5 seconds. OC is the gift that keeps on giving... And in my experience, it works best on the cops, not the bad guys. Though it is a good crowd dispersal tool... Just the smell does the trick a lot of the time. And the fire extinguisher size OC fogger... designed for dispersing crowds.

OC is an intermediate force option; most models put it above some relatively gentle hand techniques and in the same general area as baton strikes, though slightly lower. (Here's one of the most commonly used current models, in my experience.) In fact, let's look at that Use of Force Model to assess this particular case. The subjects's actions fall in the Resister range; they were refusing to move in response to verbal commands. You could argue that their haka was sufficiently aggressive to create the argument that they be placed in the bottom range of Assailants (aggressively offensive/hostile without weapons). As we look at the chart, we find that Chemical Agents like OC certainly fall within the range of acceptable controls without crossing over into excessive force.

 

[ballen0351]

Well... I'd take a Taser hit over OC any day. Taser's over in 5 seconds. OC is the gift that keeps on giving... And in my experience, it works best on the cops, not the bad guys. Though it is a good crowd dispersal tool... Just the smell does the trick a lot of the time. And the fire extinguisher size OC fogger... designed for dispersing crowds.

OC is an intermediate force option; most models put it above some relatively gentle hand techniques and in the same general area as baton strikes, though slightly lower. (Here's one of the most commonly used current models, in my experience.) In fact, let's look at that Use of Force Model to assess this particular case. The subjects's actions fall in the Resister range; they were refusing to move in response to verbal commands. You could argue that their haka was sufficiently aggressive to create the argument that they be placed in the bottom range of Assailants (aggressively offensive/hostile without weapons). As we look at the chart, we find that Chemical Agents like OC certainly fall within the range of acceptable controls without crossing over into excessive force.

See OC does not bother me anymore. I can take an OC hit and stand there and hold a conversation with you. Tasers I dont mind the shock its the probes and the burn marks I dont like. I still have scars from taking the ride

 

[Tez3]

See OC does not bother me anymore. I can take an OC hit and stand there and hold a conversation with you. Tasers I dont mind the shock its the probes and the burn marks I dont like. I still have scars from taking the ride

I thought the general idea was to spray others not yourself? Still I expect it makes for a cheaper police force if you rely on things like pepper spray rather than training courses etc.

 

[ballen0351]

I thought the general idea was to spray others not yourself? Still I expect it makes for a cheaper police force if you rely on things like pepper spray rather than training courses etc.

Im an OC instructor so Ive been sprayed alot. But in reality Ive been sprayed more by other cops then anyting else. You get to fighting with a bad guy your partner decides to "HELP" by spraying the guy he misses and sprays me.


And it has nothing to do with lack of training. We have found at my department thru use of force studies that by putting things like OC before hands on physical contact on the force continuum injuries to both officers and suspects went down. And after we got tasers officer injuries went down again. The number off officers we have on light duty has dropped 45% just by moving things around on our force continuum. Its about keep us safe not a cheaper force.

 

[jks9199]

I thought the general idea was to spray others not yourself? Still I expect it makes for a cheaper police force if you rely on things like pepper spray rather than training courses etc.

Tez, that's kind of a cheap shot. We don't know whether ballen's agency does the bare minimum or far exceeds it in training. They've chosen a use of force model that's different from what you're used to. Perhaps social controls work more effectively in your community than in a many US communities. By and large, the US is a much more diverse population than any other nation, and I do recognize that the UK is a diverse community when I say that.

To me, it's simple. Something had to be done to control the situation. That something could potentially have been anything from waiting till they got out of the way all the way to opening fire and blasting a hole through the crowd. Simple commands and social controls had failed. Perhaps the officer should have recognized the haka for what it was; in all honestly, I might not have in those circumstances, even now. It wasn't the whole crowd; it was a relative handful of participants. Would you be able to recognize it, seeing it in jumpy pieces, as you escort a team out, with your head on a swivel? The officer used OC; it was an acceptable option in the force continuum. It doesn't have to be what you would have done. It doesn't even have to be the perfect option; it just has to be reasonable in light of the circumstances. He had a crowd, which wasn't obeying commands and instead began a hostile display (you've admitted that the haka IS a hostile display), and he escalated his use of force to the next level. The rest of the stuff preventing is moot; it had already failed.

 

[Tez3]

Im an OC instructor so Ive been sprayed alot. But in reality Ive been sprayed more by other cops then anyting else. You get to fighting with a bad guy your partner decides to "HELP" by spraying the guy he misses and sprays me.


And it has nothing to do with lack of training. We have found at my department thru use of force studies that by putting things like OC before hands on physical contact on the force continuum injuries to both officers and suspects went down. And after we got tasers officer injuries went down again. The number off officers we have on light duty has dropped 45% just by moving things around on our force continuum. Its about keep us safe not a cheaper force.

Seems not all are in agreement with you, this is an American site.

http://www.policetest.info/FORCE_CONTINUUM_POLICE_USE_OF_FORCE.htm

" Pepper spray, once thought an effective street tool for police officers has lost popularity over the years because of its ineffectiveness, especially on intoxicated persons."

And this
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1558850&show=abstract
"OC reduced aggressiveness among suspects already aggressive, but it induced aggression among initially non-aggressive subjects"
http://policestudies.homestead.com/pepperspray.html

"Six to 15 per cent of all uses of pepper spray were against suspects that did not pose any threat to the officer concerned or to others. In light of the painful effects of pepper spray and the discussion that took place during the street trials about the right place of pepper spray in the use-of-force continuum, it is important to ensure that pepper spray is not deployed all too easily. This would not only be in disregard of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. It would also harm the police image and public acceptance of pepper spray as a proper police weapon."

An analysis of 1882 reports concerning 1603 incidents in which an individual was actually sprayed with pepperspray (one incident could involve more than one officer or suspect) indicated that officers seemed justly satisfied with pepperspray: OC-spray makes it possible to effectively control a (potentially) dangerous suspect from a safe distance and without serious consequences. The availability of pepperspray was often effective in itself, and this preventive effect seemed to get stronger. However, compared with the previously held street trials, effectiveness of actual use of OC-spray seemed to have diminished.


There's a place for it but it cannot be used indiscriminately instead of good policing.
I think you all must be used to higher levels of violence than we are here.

 

[ballen0351]

Seems not all are in agreement with you, this is an American site.

http://www.policetest.info/FORCE_CONTINUUM_POLICE_USE_OF_FORCE.htm

" Pepper spray, once thought an effective street tool for police officers has lost popularity over the years because of its ineffectiveness, especially on intoxicated persons."

And this
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1558850&show=abstract
"OC reduced aggressiveness among suspects already aggressive, but it induced aggression among initially non-aggressive subjects"
http://policestudies.homestead.com/pepperspray.html

"Six to 15 per cent of all uses of pepper spray were against suspects that did not pose any threat to the officer concerned or to others. In light of the painful effects of pepper spray and the discussion that took place during the street trials about the right place of pepper spray in the use-of-force continuum, it is important to ensure that pepper spray is not deployed all too easily. This would not only be in disregard of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. It would also harm the police image and public acceptance of pepper spray as a proper police weapon."

An analysis of 1882 reports concerning 1603 incidents in which an individual was actually sprayed with pepperspray (one incident could involve more than one officer or suspect) indicated that officers seemed justly satisfied with pepperspray: OC-spray makes it possible to effectively control a (potentially) dangerous suspect from a safe distance and without serious consequences. The availability of pepperspray was often effective in itself, and this preventive effect seemed to get stronger. However, compared with the previously held street trials, effectiveness of actual use of OC-spray seemed to have diminished.


There's a place for it but it cannot be used indiscriminately instead of good policing.
I think you all must be used to higher levels of violence than we are here.

Ive already said there is nothing that works 100% of the time. Its a Tool not a death machine like you were implying in past post about mass panic and people being crushed at the sight of the OC can.

Ive know people it has no effect myself included. The teacher who taught my OC Instructor class sprayed OC on a cracker and ate it to show it was harmless. We have a HUGE PCP problem here and it has no effect on someone under the effects of PCP (sadly neither do battons, fists, knees, or elbows) Someone on PCP does not register pain so pain compliance is not effective on them. Now Ive sprayed quite a few people in my time as an officer and I can only think of twice where it didnt work (excluding PCP users). So for me its effective. Also as I said my department did an internal study on use of force and officer and suspect injuries and our study showed the less our officers have to go hands on with suspect the safer it is for both sides. That may not work everywhere but it works here.
Maybe my bad guys are different then your bad guys. It sounds like you can reason with your bad guys and they listen to you and your superior training and verbal judo skills. However where I work it just wont work. I happy that you dont have to deal with the violence that we do. My officers are assaulted daily, were spit on, cussed at, have bottles thrown at our cars as we drive thru certain areas. There are housing projects where we have to send a min of 3 officers to every call 2 to handle the call one to watch the police cars so they are not destroyed while they are unoccupied. We have a huge influx of gangs ranging fom MS-13 to local blood sets. They are fighting with our home grown gangs like the Get money hustlers, Kapital Krime Krew, ect. I just cant see me walking up to a gang banger say MS-13 with a homicide warrant from Washington Dc or Northern VA and trying to talk him into coming along with me peacfully. Maybe Ill ask my LT to send me over to your side of the pond so I can get some of the awsome training you have and all will be right with the world.

 

[Tez3]

Sarcasm again? And twisting of words, well done. I thought we were talking about the OP and the sports crowd not gang members etc etc.
Perhaps you should come across to the Province and deal with the IRA, the Provos and the Loyalists. Perhaps you thought it was all finished? Sorry, no police officers and others are still being blown up and shot. Police officers still have to carry their weapons when off duty because the terrorists know where they live so will come to shoot them and their families. Perhaps your families should live in the fear many of ours do. Perhaps you can come across to Afghan where many of my colleagues work (no we aren't military) training Afghan police officers as well as facing suicide bombers and rogue 'police officers'.
Try not to be so sarcastic when you don't know what we do, I was keeping to the subject of the OP hence the quote about non violent people being sprayed and it making them violent, an own goal if ever there was one and could be applied in the OP. If you want to talk training start another thread.

 

[ballen0351]

Sarcasm again? And twisting of words, well done. I thought we were talking about the OP and the sports crowd not gang members etc etc.
Perhaps you should come across to the Province and deal with the IRA, the Provos and the Loyalists. Perhaps you thought it was all finished? Sorry, no police officers and others are still being blown up and shot. Police officers still have to carry their weapons when off duty because the terrorists know where they live so will come to shoot them and their families. Perhaps your families should live in the fear many of ours do. Perhaps you can come across to Afghan where many of my colleagues work (no we aren't military) training Afghan police officers as well as facing suicide bombers and rogue 'police officers'.
Try not to be so sarcastic when you don't know what we do, I was keeping to the subject of the OP hence the quote about non violent people being sprayed and it making them violent, an own goal if ever there was one and could be applied in the OP. If you want to talk training start another thread.

Lucky for me im not in Afghan. If I was OC spray would be the last thing I grab. Im talking about Police work not War.
You were the sarcastic one talking about my training. You changed the topic from the OP when you started quoting stats on the effectiveness of OC on the individual and making little smart comments Like "but it cannot be used indiscriminately instead of good policing." I guess I dont like my job preformance being question by someone who has ZERO idea about what US policing in an Urban enviroment is all about. Someone from the begining of this thread was against the officer and tried very hard to make a race issue over it cause a bunch of kids were doing a dance and got sprayed. So in closing You just keep guarding your base how you want to and Ill keep doing police work how I want to. We both seem to be doing a fine job at it so Your way works for you and my way works for me. Good luck, stay safe sounds real nasty over there.

RIP Brothers and Sisters
http://www.policememorial.org.uk/index.html
http://www.odmp.org/

 

[Tez3]

Lucky for me im not in Afghan. If I was OC spray would be the last thing I grab. Im talking about Police work not War.
You were the sarcastic one talking about my training. You changed the topic from the OP when you started quoting stats on the effectiveness of OC on the individual and making little smart comments Like "but it cannot be used indiscriminately instead of good policing." I guess I dont like my job preformance being question by someone who has ZERO idea about what US policing in an Urban enviroment is all about. Someone from the begining of this thread was against the officer and tried very hard to make a race issue over it cause a bunch of kids were doing a dance and got sprayed. So in closing You just keep guarding your base how you want to and Ill keep doing police work how I want to. We both seem to be doing a fine job at it so Your way works for you and my way works for me. Good luck, stay safe sounds real nasty over there.

RIP Brothers and Sisters
http://www.policememorial.org.uk/index.html
http://www.odmp.org/

I am not guarding a base I'm afraid , so sorry to disappoint you besides it was your base anyway. You're paying for it and the policing! The American tax payer pays for the MDP to be there including a very nice overtime bill because of the protestors.
Policing in an urban environment isn't the same as pepper spraying a bunch of high school kids who were somewhat exhuberantly celebrating their mate.
The MDP is in Afghan teaching the Afghans how to be police officers, it's not 'war'.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...ns/ModPoliceHelpCreateAnAfghanPoliceForce.htm

I said at the start good stewarding would have stopped the situation from happening. The police officer looked as if he was panicking or was perhaps just feeling stroppy. The way people are saying 'dance' seems to mean they are unaware of cultural differences. Btw I regularly come into conflict with Fijians, very large, military trained, rugby playing Fijians, who are as nissed as pewts and very little affects them when they are sober so pepper spray is pointless, they aren't even that bothered by military CS when they do the drills. Good soldiers,. nightmare when out drunk.
I would suggest you hadn't read the articles I posted, they detail both the bad and the good points of spraying. Spraying teenagers because they wouldn't or couldn't move because they didn't hear the officer telling them to doesn't really count as a a major cause for riot control.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.policememorial.org.uk/Forces/IRELAND/Northern_Ireland-Criminal_Acts.htm

Off on nights now, the usual... fights, rape allegations, domestic abuse, break ins, accidents, thefts, assaults, criminal damage, muggings, poachers, same old, same old.

 

[ballen0351]

You're paying for it and the policing! The American tax payer pays for the MDP to be there including a very nice overtime bill because of the protestors.


Well then Your welcome Im glad I can give you a job, happy I can help.

 

[Tez3]

You're paying for it and the policing! The American tax payer pays for the MDP to be there including a very nice overtime bill because of the protestors.


Well then Your welcome Im glad I can give you a job, happy I can help.

I think that proves you don't read my posts, I don't guard your camp. I just remove people now and again. The British tax payer pays for me with the Queen being my boss. The British tax payer pays my wages and HRH the Queen is my boss.