Postgame Dancers Pepper Sprayed By Police

[ballen0351]

I`m suprised it happened in Utah. somewhere around 80% of Polynesians are LDS (Mormon) and almost every Tongan, Maori, or Samoan I`ve ever met was from Utah. I would`ve assumed the cop knew what it was....but it sounds more than likely that Tez hit the nail on the head. Someone didn`t know what it was, and it was being done in an area that should have been more controlled.

I see it differently I dont think it matter what they were doing haka, irish jig, square dance, break dance, kata, ect. All they had to do was move 5 feet left or right away from the exit and they can dance all they want. Common sence should tell you not to block the exits. Common sence should also tell you when an officer walks up while you blocking the exit and says move and hes got a can of OC Spray in his hand you might want to move.

 

[Tez3]

I see it differently I dont think it matter what they were doing haka, irish jig, square dance, break dance, kata, ect. All they had to do was move 5 feet left or right away from the exit and they can dance all they want. Common sence should tell you not to block the exits. Common sence should also tell you when an officer walks up while you blocking the exit and says move and hes got a can of OC Spray in his hand you might want to move.

I disagree, they should have been moved on as soon a couple of them started congregating at the exit, a crowd should never have been allowed to build up there. Common sense would tell you that once the noise level has built up one officer's voice won't be heard nor likely will he be noticed through no malice on the crowds part. If the officer had moved them when it was only a couple of people, kept moving them it wouldn't have happened. Spraying a crowd like that could cause a panic, the worse possible thing that could happen. The last thing you want is people being crushed by others.

It's not dance, it's a Haka.

 

[ballen0351]

I disagree, they should have been moved on as soon a couple of them started congregating at the exit, a crowd should never have been allowed to build up there. Common sense would tell you that once the noise level has built up one officer's voice won't be heard nor likely will he be noticed through no malice on the crowds part. If the officer had moved them when it was only a couple of people, kept moving them it wouldn't have happened. Spraying a crowd like that could cause a panic, the worse possible thing that could happen. The last thing you want is people being crushed by others.

It's not dance, it's a Haka.

How do you know from the short clip that a teacher wasnt trying to clear the exit and they were not listening so he went and got a cop to help. Or How do you know the Cop didn't ask them 20 times to move before he took out his spray? You dont know what happened prior to the tape starting.

Spraying two or three people accomplised the goal it was a small crowd of 15 to 20 people not 200. Nobody was going to be crushed. Plus he didnt spray the crowd he sparyed to or three people directly you can see in the clip which ones he sprayed.

And it is a dance these are a bunch of kids from Utah not Warriors on the battle field.

 

[MJS]

I see it differently I dont think it matter what they were doing haka, irish jig, square dance, break dance, kata, ect. All they had to do was move 5 feet left or right away from the exit and they can dance all they want. Common sence should tell you not to block the exits. Common sence should also tell you when an officer walks up while you blocking the exit and says move and hes got a can of OC Spray in his hand you might want to move.

You hit the nail on the head! Bold emphasis mine. Sadly a large portion of the population seems to be lacking that.

 

[MJS]

You're both making some valid points, however, I'll put blame on the crowd and the cops. The crowd..well, for being a bunch of dummies and the cops for waiting until things got out of hand and then acting.

Now, I wasn't there, nobody here was there, so its all speculation. However, I"m going to assume that there was more than 1 person there acting as security. That said, call for some backup. If they're not going to respond to verbal commands, start to physically move them. If they're not responding to that, then move to the next option which would be the OC.

 

[ballen0351]

Now, I wasn't there, nobody here was there, so its all speculation. However, I"m going to assume that there was more than 1 person there acting as security. That said, call for some backup. If they're not going to respond to verbal commands, start to physically move them. If they're not responding to that, then move to the next option which would be the OC.

It depends when I first became a cop I worked for a small department we had total of 45 officers. We worked the high school games as an OT assingment and normally it was a single officer if it was a rival game then 2 at most.

Also we dont know his SOP's His force ladder might have OC 1st before trying to physically touching people. When we first got tasers my admin didnt know where to place them on the ladder so they made them #2 after verbal commands. We were not allowed to touch anyone we gave a warning if it was not listened too we were to deploy the taser. Then they saw how much it was costing at $20 a pop for cartridges and they changed itto between OC and Impact weapon.


In reality this should not even be news worthy. People get OC used on them all the time the only reason this is getting any air time is because people are trying to make a race issue out of it when its not. Had this been a group of white kids dancing a jig nothing would have been said but someone saw a way to create an oppresssed victim class and bam people jumped on it.

 

[MJS]

It depends when I first became a cop I worked for a small department we had total of 45 officers. We worked the high school games as an OT assingment and normally it was a single officer if it was a rival game then 2 at most.

True, I didn't think about that. Then again, when we have games where I work, the guys who usually patrol the district where the game is taking place, usually do their best to hang around that area, esp. when its time to end.

Also we dont know his SOP's His force ladder might have OC 1st before trying to physically touching people. When we first got tasers my admin didnt know where to place them on the ladder so they made them #2 after verbal commands. We were not allowed to touch anyone we gave a warning if it was not listened too we were to deploy the taser. Then they saw how much it was costing at $20 a pop for cartridges and they changed itto between OC and Impact weapon.

Good point.

In reality this should not even be news worthy. People get OC used on them all the time the only reason this is getting any air time is because people are trying to make a race issue out of it when its not. Had this been a group of white kids dancing a jig nothing would have been said but someone saw a way to create an oppresssed victim class and bam people jumped on it.

Yup.

 

[Tez3]

It shouldn't have got so far that it had to be a police issue. As I said stewards should have moved the people away before it became a crowd, people will stop anywhere they aren't moved away. Once people become a crowd it's more difficult to deal with.

 

[jks9199]

Tez,

While I hear that Brits will form a queue simply because there are 3 of them together... folks here in the US are different. They have a tendency to form a mob as soon as they have 1 person in the group...

Also -- as I've said before -- typically, at a high school football game, there may be a couple of teachers, parents, or school security staff members providing crowd "control." They don't do much, and may not be allowed to do so much as guide a person with a touch.

Yes, the exits should have been kept clear. Yes, the cops might not have needed to use OC had lots of things been done differently. Blame lies on both sides, and given that -- when I balance it out, the teeter-totter swings over to the people who weren't in the right place, and whose actions created problems.

 

[Tez3]

For all our queuing habits we've had some very nasty crowd tragedies, so much so we are probably quite paranoid about crowd control at sports events. Even small events get serious stewarding and security. I think perhaps your high school games probably have as many spectators as some of our lower league professional football games.
We are haunted here by the 1989 Hillsborough disaster where 99 were crushed to death, 1985, Heysel 39 dead, crushed also Bradford where there was a fire in a stadium, 56 dead, over 200 injured. 1971 Ibrox Glasgow 66 Rangers fans crushed to death. These are just the major disasters that I've seen.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/3003121/Football-stadium-disasters.html

These, I'm afraid, are seared on our brains, we sat and watched them all unfold on television as the games were being shown live. There's pictures I believe on Youtube if you want to look. We were shown the police videos when we were in training, ghastly. It makes my blood run cold when I see potential disasters caused by bad or no stewarding and things like part of the crowd being gassed, the panic it can cause doesn't bear thinking about.

This happened just the other week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bila-Nanfuka-killed-2-critically-injured.html

 

[ballen0351]

Even small events get serious stewarding and security. I think perhaps your high school games probably have as many spectators as some of our lower league professional football games.

It depends on where in the country were talking about in some parts of the south High School Football is King other parts of the country like where I live not so much. My kids High School does not even have a football team. Ive gone to high school games and theres been 100 people max in the stands watching VS. when I lived in South Carolina Ive been to games where it looked like everyone in a 50 mile radius showed up to the game.
Most High Schools cant afford to hire security for these events with budget cuts and things so you get a few teachers that attend and 2 or 3 cops if they are lucky. As of late at least where I work things are starting to change and more security and police are attending not because of crowds but because of violence like shooting, stabbings, and fights.

I still find it kind of amazing this is even being reported at all. People get sprayed 1000's of times a day in this country and its no big deal yet this case where a few people got sprayed and NOBODY was hurt has casued this much attention. I stand by my eariler comment had this been a group of white guys this would have never even made the paper

 

[Tez3]

You spray thousands of people every day? Wow, to you it's that common and no big deal? to be honest I don't know what to say, it's certainly not that common here.
It was reported I imagine because it looks like it was directed at 'foreigners' doing a 'funny dance'. As we don't know what was in that particular officer's mind at the time we can't tell whether he was directing it at them because he thought they were threatening him and/or someone else or because he didn't like them. The guys are standing there, left alone then they start the haka and are gassed, that's what it looks like so that's why it made the news.

 

[ballen0351]

You spray thousands of people every day? Wow, to you it's that common and no big deal? to be honest I don't know what to say, it's certainly not that common here.
It was reported I imagine because it looks like it was directed at 'foreigners' doing a 'funny dance'. As we don't know what was in that particular officer's mind at the time we can't tell whether he was directing it at them because he thought they were threatening him and/or someone else or because he didn't like them. The guys are standing there, left alone then they start the haka and are gassed, that's what it looks like so that's why it made the news.

1000s a day is just my own personal guess I have zero evidence to back it up and could be way wrong Im just guessing based on my own experiance with where I work we spray alot of people. Our SOP says we should use spray before physical force so people are sprayed daily here.


It dosent look that way to me. I dont commonly go around looking for a victim class. I see a group of people blocking an exit and not moving when told to.

 

[Tez3]

1000s a day is just my own personal guess I have zero evidence to back it up and could be way wrong Im just guessing based on my own experiance with where I work we spray alot of people. Our SOP says we should use spray before physical force so people are sprayed daily here.


It dosent look that way to me. I dont commonly go around looking for a victim class. I see a group of people blocking an exit and not moving when told to.[/QUOTE]

You are not seeing it through the eyes of a broadcaster worried about ratings! I doubt they are bothered whether anyone was a 'victim' nor about what was right or wrong, they see 'story'.

We don't worry about the physical stuff here, demonstrators, protestors or just people who won't move are moved by force if necessary, that way the right people get moved.
These are my favourite people to remove, when they say they are non violent don't believe it! (You can thank me later for what we do for you rofl!)

 

[seasoned]

Yes, the exits should have been kept clear. Yes, the cops might not have needed to use OC had lots of things been done differently. Blame lies on both sides, and given that -- when I balance it out, the teeter-totter swings over to the people who weren't in the right place, and whose actions created problems.

Should have, could have, would have.

Were dealing with face value. Exit blocked, needs to be open, job done..............

 

[Tez3]

Only one exit? I doubt it, people could have been directed to leave by another.Was it imperative that people leave right that minute, was there a fire or could they have waited a few minutes while the crowd were moved on properly? Spraying people may be acceptable to you but here there would have been an uproar if the police hadn't found an alternative way of dealing with the problem. It smacks of panic to be honest, people in the way? Just pepper spray them. Sorry but that's panic tactics and the quickest way to get a crowd who had previously been in a good mood against you. Crowd control is an art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlabb3kTHWI&NR=1

 

[Carol]

Only one exit? I doubt it, people could have been directed to leave by another.Was it imperative that people leave right that minute, was there a fire or could they have waited a few minutes while the crowd were moved on properly? Spraying people may be acceptable to you but here there would have been an uproar if the police hadn't found an alternative way of dealing with the problem. It smacks of panic to be honest, people in the way? Just pepper spray them. Sorry but that's panic tactics and the quickest way to get a crowd who had previously been in a good mood against you. Crowd control is an art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlabb3kTHWI&NR=1

The spectators will always have more than one exit to use, even outdoors. But this was one exit from pitch. This is not only typical, it is desirable. The players come and go as a team. Plus, there is the factor of player safety (layers of seperation, a banged up/sick/dizzy/disoriented player isn't wandering off on their own)

The victorious players using their haka to seemingly block the other team and players from leaving. Basically taking the celebration and giving it a bit of American in-your-face brash to the other team, while being egged on by few supporting fans. I highly doubt the players wanted to cause a riot, but this sort of stuff is what can easily spark one.

There's more than just hometown pride, historic rivalries and good old fashioned machismo at work here. The cost of a university education in this country has gone through the roof. With the billion dollar NCAA machine rich scholarships and posh lodging to student athletes, a high schooler with an unspectacular academic record can get a free ride to a large, wealthy university if they are a good enough ball player. The fierce competition and desire for these scholarships has sparked some rather unsportsmanlike behaviour from players and parents alike.

You can hear some friendly (student) voices calling to make a hole on the video, it seems to me that the supporters of the victorious players even wanted them to move and not actually block the exit. Wish this could have ended differently.

 

[Tez3]

And these are all children under the age of 18? I'm speechless tbh. Children being pepper spray, 'banged up' ( we don't allow under 18s head shots in MMA), 'rioting' etc etc. Wow, again.

 

[jks9199]

The crowd will consist of people from infants/toddler to great-grandparents. In short -- all ages. The group in the clip looked to me to be teens to adults, which would be the bulk of the crowd.

I don't have a major problem with the officer's tactics, if you haven't noticed. He had what could easily have appeared to be a group blocking the exit and trying to have a confrontation with the exiting team. He told them to let the team out, and they didn't listen. He then acted to enable that. OC isn't fun -- but it's not permanent harm. Even without some sort of decontamination (read soap and water), the effect dissipates over about 30 minutes. That's the direct exposure. Most of the people? They probably smelled it more than actually experienced it. Maybe he should have waded in with a baton, cracking shins and skulls?

 

[Carol]

And these are all children under the age of 18? I'm speechless tbh. Children being pepper spray, 'banged up' ( we don't allow under 18s head shots in MMA), 'rioting' etc etc. Wow, again.

They went through much worse in 60 minutes of football...trust me