Panhandlers

[Adept]

I imagine size is the biggest factor when talking about the different welfare systems. The population of Australia is only 20,000,000. Our welfar system only has to care for a fraction of those people. Once any organisation becomes too large, and too over-worked, then people start to slip through the cracks.

I'm not sure how it works in the US, but here the welfare people will set you up with any applicable job positions. They arrange the interviews for you, and if you do not attend you do not get your welfare payments. Of course, there is a bit of wiggle room and if you have a legitimate excuse you don't have to attend. They once set me up with a job interview for driving tractors (for which I am unqualified) in a job over 600 miles away. Needless to say, I didn't attend.

 

[Oak Bo]

I imagine size is the biggest factor when talking about the different welfare systems. The population of Australia is only 20,000,000. Our welfar system only has to care for a fraction of those people. Once any organisation becomes too large, and too over-worked, then people start to slip through the cracks.

I would think size has a lot to do with it. The bigger he system gets the more mucked up it becomes.

 

[Oak Bo]

I hear you say that govenment(ie:taxpayer)-funded social programs don't work.

Then I ask you:
Why do countries with significantly more generous taxpayer-funded social programs have significantly less homeless and - more to the point of this thread - significantly fewer panhandlers?
(See Canada, New Zealand, & other more socialist countries cited in this & other threads)

It wont work in the U.S. The only way it could work here would be to rise taxes by a whole lot. The American people wouldn't go for it, as they feel they pay too much in taxes as it is. The politicians know that, and if they tried to get something like that going they'd be thrown out on their heads.

 

[MA-Caver]

The politicians know that, and if they tried to get something like that going they'd be thrown out on their heads.

A lot of them need to be thrown out on their heads anyway and replaced.
Power corrupts and when you got major billion dollar industries giving incentives to said politicans to vote this way or that way on a particular bill, knowing that it will cost tax-payers anyway....
Question is though... who's gonna do it?
Certianly not people like me... the ones that don't vote. So maybe I don't have a right to gripe. :idunno: Mebbe I do. Doesn't matter because the problem still exists and voting for or against something that will help me and countless of other homeless and poor and lower class folk will take months and years... a time span that not a whole lot of us have at the moment.

I have to say Oak Bo that you do have a way of seeing things from a standpoint that many of us probably should have. Thing is that we (the poor) don't. Being beaten down time and again and having so many strikes accumulate against us, it makes it difficult to keep the stiff upper lip and the ole' chin up and maintain a grip on the reality of the situation. Grin and bear it and deal with it and so on and so on.

Ah well at least I can...

 

[Oak Bo]

A lot of them need to be thrown out on their heads anyway and replaced.

I agree the sooner the better too.

Power corrupts and when you got major billion dollar industries giving incentives to said politicans to vote this way or that way on a particular bill, knowing that it will cost tax-payers anyway....
Question is though... who's gonna do it?

That's a very good question. If we could get rid of the special interest groups we might be able to make some headway. Of course that wont happen because of the money involved so the vicious cycle continues with no end in sight.

So maybe I don't have a right to gripe. :idunno: Mebbe I do.

Yes, you have every right to gripe whether you voted or not. It's just as much your country as anyone else's. And your opinion is just as important as the next persons.

 

[Flatlander]

It wont work in the U.S. The only way it could work here would be to rise taxes by a whole lot. The American people wouldn't go for it, as they feel they pay too much in taxes as it is. The politicians know that, and if they tried to get something like that going they'd be thrown out on their heads.

This is the center of the issue, I'm glad you mentioned it.

Because the onus cannot be on the government to comprehensively provide for the extremely needy, the responsibility falls upon the generosity of individuals. If all people said "well, I don't give because of the ones who abuse it, or otherwise don't *really* deserve it (they could be working, you know), then there will be NO help. People that need help will starve. Children with "lazy" parents will live a cold, hungry, and unwanted life. Suffering will continue. Help comes from the generosity of those who will, or there is no help at all. For anyone.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Okay. I'm going to post without pasting someone's quote in here. I've been going after people a bit lately and with some heat, and I'm going to step back from that. For now.

60% of the homeless in the U.S. have mental disorders, usually either schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder. I've posted those stats on MT elsewhere, I believe...a long time ago in a thread far, far away.

Some here say something along the lines of "They need to get a job."

Hire them.

Approach the guy who is standing on the corner in November, in his socks, in clothes that haven't been washed in three years--the guy who is muttering to himself knocking with his fist on the imaginary wall that is enclosing him and keeping him from moving.

Hire the guy dragging his opened sleeping bag behind him, wearing a football helmet on his head backward, who is screaming obscenities to people we can't see.

Hire the guy who says he's seeking Rachel's heart. "The blood is in the heart, the heart's in the stone. I've got to find it!" he says. When you talk to him he'll possibly pull out a lighter and attempt to light his tongue.

These are all people I've seen or interacted with. They're not creations of a fertile imagination. The first two lived in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco fifteen years ago. The third lives here in my home town, and did indeed attempt to light his tongue when I tried to calm him down. I don't know if he ever found Rachel or the blood in the heart of the stone.

Hire them.

When you call them winos, note that on the days they get their government checks they are unusually free of symptoms...and can almost act normal. They've found that alcohol stops the hallucinations. They prefer self-medicating like this to taking pills prescribed by doctors. Paranoia drives that. It goes with the disease. Buying Thunderbird and MD 20-20 gives them a sense of autonomy and control. They don't like the pills.

Hire them.

A portion of the remaining 40% of the homeless in this country are migrant workers from Mexico. Some are Mixtec indians, who speak neither Spanish or English. In the Salinas Valley the newest workers sleep in the wooded sections of Prunedale, or live in caves. I suppose a five by five shack made out of scrap and garbage bags counts as a home to some here, or paying $200 a month to share a garage with ten other people.

Their life expectancy is about 49 years.

I'd ask you to hire them, but they have jobs and met your criteria--and they work harder than anybody posting here. If you want to challenge that, go work with them picking strawberries and try living on their wage of less than $7,500 a year.

See if you last a month.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Adept]

Hire them.

Why should I? Even if I was in a position to hire them, what possible motivation could I have to do so?

Should I help them because they 'deserve' it?

Should I help them through pity?

Should I help them through empathy?

Should I help them just because they are other human beings?

As far as I'm concerned, no. None of the above reasons are good enough for me to take time from my day, or money from my pocket, to help them. Not when their only problem is a lack of a place to sleep or work. Those few dollars they find or are given are enough to wash their clothes at a laundromat or buy new second hand clothes. $7,500 US a year is a solid amount of money. I've worked for less at times.

I'd also like to know who interviewed every homeless person in the USA to be able to accurately claim that 60% of them suffer a mental disorder.

 

[raedyn]

I'd also like to know who interviewed every homeless person in the USA to be able to accurately claim that 60% of them suffer a mental disorder.

VERY FEW of the statistics ever created interview ALL of the subject population. Ever heard of sampling?

 

[lonecoyote]

I don't care how self reliant you are, how many jobs you work, how you won't ever accept a handout, etc. there will come a time when you will need help. Maybe not today, or tomorrow or ten years from now or maybe not until you are eighty years old laying in a nursing home and your catheter burns like hell and you can barely communicate to the minimum wage earning nurses assistant your pain. There will come a time when you need a hand. That is part of what it means to be a human being. When you finally have to ask, no matter when that is, when you finally have to walk a mile in the shoes of those who need help, then your attitudes will hopefully change and you can develop empathy. The capacity to feel for others and help others is one of the noblest aspects of humanity. And don't tell me there are no homeless australians, or no people who fall through the cracks there, go search Australian newspapers or TV stations, there are people who fall through the cracks everywhere.

 

[shesulsa]

Let's all remember that our mothers volunteered to have us. Our parents volunteered to raise us. And it wasn't because we were stellar people who were worthy or with good character, or kept our clothes clean every day. They wiped our butts and cleaned our puke, stayed up nights, forfeited their Starbucks and games and movies and lifestyles to raise us. And yes, they did indeed have a choice.

If you're adopted, those parents volunteered - and paid money - to raise you.

The granny in your kindergarten classroom donated her precious time to help us. Our Scout or Pathfinder leader volunteered lots of time and energy and many other things to reach out to us. People volunteer at schools to help us. People volunteer at hospitals of all places to care for us when we are ill. Every time someone does us a favor, that is volunteerism.

Volunteerism is just one of the best forms of donation, because it involves the heart.

If you're not doing conscienciously something to benefit society and make the world a better place, then you're part of the problem.

It is such a shame when people who call themselves martial artists - the warriors, the exemplery - espouse discompassionate beliefs.

 

[Adept]

When you finally have to ask, no matter when that is, when you finally have to walk a mile in the shoes of those who need help, then your attitudes will hopefully change and you can develop empathy.

I believe I am chemically unable. My military psych tests revealed slight paranoid tendencies and sociopathic traits. Maybe thats why they selected me.

And don't tell me there are no homeless australians, or no people who fall through the cracks there, go search Australian newspapers or TV stations, there are people who fall through the cracks everywhere.

I never said there wasnt. I said their problems are not mine. The opportunity exists for them to be at least partially self reliant. They fall through the cracks of their own will.

Now, I'm not saying I dont care about people at all. And I'm not saying I have a complete lack of empathy. What I am saying is that the level of empathy I feel for people on the street might as well be non-existant. Their problems dont concern me.

@Raedyn Yes, I have heard of sampling. I would like to know who conducted the research and to what extent. Sampling three crazies on the street and applying the result to the entire homeless population of a nation of 300 million is absurd. I would like to see the process used to come to the figure mentioned above.

 

[Flatlander]

I said their problems are not mine. The opportunity exists for them to be at least partially self reliant.

Partially self reliant implies that there is yet another part that needs assistance. If they were able to be partially self reliant, who will help them with the rest, if they are not "our problem"? That's a loaded question. The only answer you can give would be "not me". And to that I say, fortunately for them, there are others who think differently.

They fall through the cracks of their own will.

Poppycock. Upon what fact do you base this proclamation? Perhaps a few, but I cannot believe all, or even most have willed themselves to homelessness and despair.

 

[lonecoyote]

Okay, adept, well you feel how you feel, you are nothing if not honest, and if you truly don't give a ---- about your fellow man nothing I can say is likely to change your mind. I'm sorry for you though, not saying that to put you down, just sorry. Good luck in life. I mean that. Someday someone may do something to change things for you. I'm done posting on this thread.

 

[shesulsa]

I believe I am chemically unable. My military psych tests revealed slight paranoid tendencies and sociopathic traits. Maybe thats why they selected me.

Well, let's all hope and pray that karma does not befall you should you slowly lose grip in future.

I said their problems are not mine.

Actually, they are more a part of your problem than you may realize. You pay higher taxes because of them. Crime is higher - for those willing to commit it and who must steal for money and food bring the need for more police, and that of course means benefits, burden, etc. Violence is up. And now that insurance companies know that they can continue to deny benefits to the mentally ill, they will continue cutting those benefits back until non-existant and then all unstable persons will be wandering the streets. Sanitariums will shut down and become mini-malls and movie houses where people can continue to escape and deny the outside (real) world. Within the next couple of centuries there will be fewer people with residence and resources than there are those without - because some people don't think it's their problem.

@Raedyn Yes, I have heard of sampling. I would like to know who conducted the research and to what extent. Sampling three crazies on the street and applying the result to the entire homeless population of a nation of 300 million is absurd. I would like to see the process used to come to the figure mentioned above.

Why don't you find out and disprove her statement? Can you do that? or do you just not have any desire to? She's an intelligent woman with an intelligent man for a husband - you are "Adept" - disprove her statistics. Oh, wait a minute ... that's right. It's not your problem.

I guess it wasn't Ghandi's, Meier's, Mandela's, King's or Lincoln's problem either.

 

[Adept]

Well, let's all hope and pray that karma does not befall you should you slowly lose grip in future.

Karma is a crutch for the weak.

Actually, they are more a part of your problem than you may realize. You pay higher taxes because of them.

I pay taxes, which in part pay for the welfare system. Beyond that, they are not my problem.

Why don't you find out and disprove her statement?

He (or she) who asserts must prove. If the only standard of proof required is an internet post, then here; less than 5 percent of homeless people have a mental disorder. Done. Of course, I can't come up with and sources to back that up, but apparently that isn't a requirement.

 

[shesulsa]

Tell you what, here's an abstract published by the United States Department of Agriculture that analyzes food variance among other things.

I find the observation of the Northern Cheyenne's social awareness and homelessness rates there fascinating. Cultures with this kind of awareness who act on principle have much lower rates.

Here's a sample of the text:

Cultural effects can be seen in the struggle of tribal members to uphold one of their central values: like many other American Indian groups, the Northern Cheyenne place a high priority on sharing resources with both family and non-family to ensure survival. Prevalence of the value placed on sharing and caring for others is evident in the low to nonexistent homelessness on this reservation. It is also evident in the everyday actions of individuals who share food with those in need, regardless of how much or little they have.

I despise apathy. I too am done with this thread.

Merry Christmas.

 

[someguy]

I am responisble for my brothers actions. Sure I am not he yet if something bad befalls him then it affecs me. As such I have a responsibility for my brothers actions. I hope that made sense.
In some sense the saying "All men are brothers" is true.
Also if I don't help another person out it will probably in some way effect me. Look to what shesulsa said.

As for statistics I would have a hard time beliving any statistics. Homeless people would be hard to do anything about statistically I would think.

 

[raedyn]

As for statistics I would have a hard time beliving any statistics.

Skepticism on this front is wise. We all know that 80% of stats are wrong. *wink* They do have some utility, sure. But you can slant 'research' to come up with nearly any answer you desire - especially in surveys & such. This is also why we have peer-reviewed journals that attempt to search-out methodological flaws and validate the basis of the research. Even with a good study, portions of it can be pulled out of context and warped to fit someone's agenda.

Homeless people would be hard to do anything about statistically I would think.

It is a challenging subject group, to be sure. The community studying homelessness recognises the difficulties. But they go far out of their way to attempt to circumvent the weaknesses. If you are interested there's a lot of info available online.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Why should I? Even if I was in a position to hire them, what possible motivation could I have to do so?

Should I help them because they 'deserve' it?

Should I help them through pity?

Should I help them through empathy?

Should I help them just because they are other human beings?

I would say, "Yes", but of course, I would not force anyone to have the feelings I have.