Panhandlers

[Feisty Mouse]

Well, we all try to keep MT as flame-free as possible, although it's not always possible.

 

[Oak Bo]

Defensive much? [/QOUTE]
No, not at all.

Picking a babysitting-kids job is pretty selective. Most parents will scarcely trust anyone with their kids, let alone someone who may not be looking or smelling too good. That does not necessarily mean that that person does not deserve, or should not get, a job, a home, etc.

Yeah they should be able to have a home and such, but let them work for it like the rest of us.

 

[Oak Bo]

My home is not my place of business, so this doesn't really work for me. Could you try another example, please? Besides, babysitting my children is a job not even my very own mother gets.

Oh I see, it only suits you when the setting is right....Ok

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Yeah they should be able to have a home and such, but let them work for it like the rest of us.

That's fine - but how do people *start* working when they are trying to get enough money to eat, let alone rent a place with a working shower, and have money to buy the clothes necessary to be presentable at work? Where is the security deposit for the apartment, or the money if someone needs a car to get to their workplace? Where is the savings to "fall back on" if someone gets sick and can't work?

Those are some of the problems of transitioning to being homeless/jobless, to having a home and job. It's easy to say "get a job", but if you are in that situation, there are many obstacles you have to face - including the problem of being hired at all with a lousy job history.

 

[shesulsa]

Oh I see, it only suits you when the setting is right....Ok

Again, your example of babysitting my children is not an appropriate one because of the tenuousity involved. Would you hire your co-workers or employees to babysit your children? The comparison is faulty, so I'm inviting you to please try another comparison.

 

[shesulsa]

Yeah they should be able to have a home and such, but let them work for it like the rest of us.

Again, I would really like for an example, please, of how a smelly, dirty, sleep-deprived homeless person who is NOT on drugs or alcohol and who IS trying to turn their life around is supposed to get hired.

Can you come up with something?

 

[Oak Bo]

That's fine - but how do people *start* working when they are trying to get enough money to eat, let alone rent a place with a working shower, and have money to buy the clothes necessary to be presentable at work? Where is the security deposit for the apartment, or the money if someone needs a car to get to their workplace? Where is the savings to "fall back on" if someone gets sick and can't work?

Those are some of the problems of transitioning to being homeless/jobless, to having a home and job. It's easy to say "get a job", but if you are in that situation, there are many obstacles you have to face - including the problem of being hired at all with a lousy job history.

I have a friend who came here from China, the man worked 3 jobs. He had 2 full time jobs and a part time job. He worked 20 hours a day 6-7 days a week. He busted his butt, and now is a Professor teaching medicine at a University. So if you want it bad enough it's there for the taking but you do have to work for it. And no he didn't have a car for about the first year or so, but he found a way to get there.

If he can hold down 3 jobs, I think someboby that can work, should be able to at least have one. Now those that have legit disabilites and such, that's a different matter. Those are the folks we really need to take a look at and find a better way to help out. Those that suffer from a true mental or physical handicap certainly need a better way to make it through life.
Unfortunetly, all the scammers have made it so much worse for the truly needy. So there doesn't really seem to be a clear cut answer.

 

[Oak Bo]

Again, your example of babysitting my children is not an appropriate one because of the tenuousity involved. Would you hire your co-workers or employees to babysit your children?

Sure I would and have.

 

[Oak Bo]

Again, I would really like for an example, please, of how a smelly, dirty, sleep-deprived homeless person who is NOT on drugs or alcohol and who IS trying to turn their life around is supposed to get hired.

Can you come up with something?

Sure they can look at the want ads, talk to people, knock on doors at places of buisness, the jobs are out there if you look hard enough. The main thing is for them to not give up. Although, that can be certainly easier said, then done. If you want it you have to go get it, just like in the martial arts. You want your next belt, then you better work for it

Let me ask you how would you go about fixing this problem!?

 

[shesulsa]

I have a friend who came here from China, the man worked 3 jobs. He had 2 full time jobs and a part time job. He worked 20 hours a day 6-7 days a week. He busted his butt, and now is a Professor teaching medicine at a University. So if you want it bad enough it's there for the taking but you do have to work for it. And no he didn't have a car for about the first year or so, but he found a way to get there.

I have had the priveledge of knowing a few people like this also. However, they had access to family or friends who let them stay, where they could eat and clean up. And they didn't smell, weren't dirty, weren't missing teeth. Mainly because certain immigrants get government stipends to get started here - only because they were not born in the USA. The American-born homeless in this country span a vast array of causations and backgrounds and, unlike many immigrant families, don't have sponsors or stipends or families who take them in to clean them up and feed them and such.

Now those that have legit disabilites and such, that's a different matter. Those are the folks we really need to take a look at and find a better way to help out. Those that suffer from a true mental or physical handicap certainly need a better way to make it through life.

Individuals who are mentally handicapped or who have psychiatric disorders comprise a very large percentage of our homeless. They are there because insurance has run out, families have died or moved away, and the approach to mental health in this nation is now abominable. It is EXTREMELY difficult to get a person institutionalized permanently, even if they are a harm to themselves or society.

 

[Oak Bo]

the approach to mental health in this nation is now abominable. It is EXTREMELY difficult to get a person institutionalized permanently, even if they are a harm to themselves or society.

Yes, absolutely.

With all that has been said though, I ask how would you go about fixing the problem?

 

[INDYFIGHTER]

Gave ten bucks to a guy who had some sob story about being in town for a funeral but only because he was funny as hell. Had me in tears!:rofl: :rofl: His story was crap but he earned the money by entertaining me and my date and was very respectful. He obviously could see how uncomfortable we were, it was in a dark parking lot at night and I imediately took a non-hostile ready stance between him and my date and stayed there.

What really bothers me are people who make a living from begging. There's a group of about three men who patrol an area between two popular bars downtown Indy and they are there every weekend. I've watched how the stalk people to get close enough to ask for money. I bet when they're done they climb into a car and go home to count the money they were given. It's a shame, you want to help out but are you really helping by giving a dollar? I usually just politely say sorry and keep moving.

However just a few months ago I was riding my motorcycle through a real bad part of town and stopped for gas. It was late and a guy approached me while I had my wallet out and said "Give me a dollor.". Now I'm no pushover but when I looked up and into this guys eyes I could see he was probably hopped up on something so I just said "sure" and gave the man a dollar. It was worth a dollor to me just to see him walk away.

 

[shesulsa]

With all that has been said though, I ask how would you go about fixing the problem?

Well, if our government systems are so bogged down and faulty and dwindling as they are right now, the only real hope comes from people who are willing to donate.

How about big corporations who have lots of money sponsoring expos where the smelly, dirty, ratty-looking homeless who really want a way out can get a haircut, manicure, some free personal care items, a shower, a hot meal, some donated used or new clothing, underwear, shoes, some dental care, vitamins, coaching and leads to local jobs and homes and military recruiters? The service providers could be beauty school students in their final hours, second-hand clothing stores, department stores (who part with clothing because it got dusty on the way out of the box) temporary agency employees and headhunters, etc.

But again, this requires the willingness to donate. Lots of folks don't / won't.

So, another option is to vote in liberal Democrats who make a point of providing for public assistance agencies. But, most people would rather keep their money and rent videos, by X-box games or drink Starbucks than forward that pocket change towards a tax which provides for the needy. Why proport public service tax? Because some people don't like getting their hands dirty. It's so much easier when we don't have toa ctually interact with people in need other than to shoo them away in disgust.

Then again, we could, as a country, convert to socialism and have socialized medicine and socialized education so there's be truly no excuse for anyone to not be educated (according to government standards, of course) or without healthcare (according to government standards, of course), but that debate is on a different thread.

Or, we could just stick with what we have now which, in case someone hasn't noticed, ain't werkin.

 

[Oak Bo]

What really bothers me are people who make a living from begging. There's a group of about three men who patrol an area between two popular bars downtown Indy and they are there every weekend. I've watched how the stalk people to get close enough to ask for money. I bet when they're done they climb into a car and go home to count the money they were given. It's a shame, you want to help out but are you really helping by giving a dollar? I usually just politely say sorry and keep moving.

Exactly, that's why people are so reluctant to feel bad for them. It's the scammers like this that make it bad for the true needy.

 

[Oak Bo]

How about big corporations who have lots of money sponsoring expos where the smelly, dirty, ratty-looking homeless who really want a way out can get a haircut, manicure, some free personal care items, a shower, a hot meal, some donated used or new clothing, underwear, shoes, some dental care, vitamins, coaching and leads to local jobs and homes and military recruiters? The service providers could be beauty school students in their final hours, second-hand clothing stores, department stores (who part with clothing because it got dusty on the way out of the box) temporary agency employees and headhunters, etc.

Yeah that could work, but for how long!? I mean so many people out there don't really want to help themsleves. They take a handout, but nothing will change for them. They just keep going in this vicious cycle.

So, another option is to vote in liberal Democrats who make a point of providing for public assistance agencies.

Where does the money for such programs come from and paid by whom? That would mean way more taxes for all of us, which a lot of folks have problems making ends meet now. Plus the Liberal Democrats are such weak weenies they'd screw it up for everyone except themselves, and scam the money. Then again though, any groups of politicians will do that.

But, most people would rather keep their money and rent videos, by X-box games or drink Starbucks than forward that pocket change towards a tax which provides for the needy.

Yep I agree, and don't forget everyone has to have every new gadget that comes out on the market too.

Then again, we could, as a country, convert to socialism and have socialized medicine

I've seen that first hand, doesn't work nor ever will.

socialized education so there's be truly no excuse for anyone to not be educated

I do agree the education system needs to revamped. Here we are in the richest nation on the planet, and yet we have schools that don't have enough books for the kids. That to me is a crime. Every child has the right for a good education here.

Or, we could just stick with what we have now which, in case someone hasn't noticed, ain't werkin.

Nope it aint working very well, but it is undoubtly very complex.
The situation is getting worse and worse as each decade passes, and I look at the politicians to blame for the most part. They are so far removed from reality, it's sad.

 

[Cruentus]

Yes, absolutely.

With all that has been said though, I ask how would you go about fixing the problem?

We need to start voting for people who will actually do something to combat the problem. The things that need to be done are...

#1. Doing more to raise the minimum wage and more importantly the living wage in this country, so that people can actually make enough money to get themselves out of holes before they end up on the street.

#2. Funding, funding, and funding. We frivoulesly spend/lose money on things that we don't need, like corporate welfare and the defense budget (what goes to research and development, not what goes to troops), while conservative think tanks push false ideas like "tax reform will create jobs" to justify tax cuts for the wealthy. We need to quit that nonsense, because it cuts off our noses to spite our faces. We need to fund programs that will genuinely help those who are in need; mental health programs, housing programs, etc., etc. And, these things need to be real programs, not enslavement of the poor programs like welfare to work programs here in Michigan.

On this note, I will say that our state has done a lot to improve the unemployment agency in Michigan. It is a lot more effecient and user friendly. There are a lot of job search locations that provide resume building tools, computers/email, fax machines, etc. All these things prevent people from ending up on the street. Unfortunatily, though, these improvements are only made in times when unemployment rates are high among the upper middle class as well as the lower and poor; once things improve, or at least once it LOOKS like things have improved due to the conservative spin, they will cut funding to the agencies and things could turn crappy again. Plus, the Fed. needs to not do things to sabatoge the positive efforts to try to make the administrations numbers look better, like kicking people off unemployment after 6 mo. cold turkey whether they are employed or not.

So we need to do real things to help, and fund these things, rather then pretending we are helping.

#3. Do something to combat consumerism. Personally responsability applies here, however, regular people are fighting against powerful think tanks and PR firms that infiltrate every aspect of their lives, selling the consumerist mentality. Ideas like: buying more now is better then just buying what you need, success is measured by how much you have compared to your neighbors, it's O.K. to be in 'manageable debt.' with credit cards, your class is based on how big your hat is rather then how much cattle you have (or the exterior rather then equity), and so on and so on. People don't need to have DVD surround sounds, plasma TV's, expensive new cars, etc, to be happy, and they especially don't need it if they can't afford it.

Now the homeless aren't the ones buying a plasma TV and then filing for bankrupcy...I understand that. However, the consumerist mentality basically says that you are not a valued citizen unless you can consume or buy. This is opposed to a better mentality of being valued by your work. If we value people for their work (not making a difference whether they are the garbage man or the doctor) then people will feel more valued just to be a productive citizen, regardless of what they do. And, society will be more empethetic towards those who are in a bind, but who truely desire to work. Instead, we only really value people on how much they can produce and consume, and if your on the low end of either (like the poor and the homeless) then nobody is going to give too craps about you, regardless of your desire to work and be a contributing citizen.

I hope this one makes sense.

Anyways, these are just a few solutions, but we need to make a conscience effort to do some of these things, and vote based on some of these things to combat real problems, instead of voting based on fear that the liberals are taking our values, boys are kissing on Telivision, the government is taking our money, and the terrorists could attack us at any time.

It start with our votes, and everyone doing a little part to help.

Paul

 

[raedyn]

I hear you say that govenment(ie:taxpayer)-funded social programs don't work.

Then I ask you:
Why do countries with significantly more generous taxpayer-funded social programs have significantly less homeless and - more to the point of this thread - significantly fewer panhandlers?
(See Canada, New Zealand, & other more socialist countries cited in this & other threads)

 

[Oak Bo]

We need to start voting for people who will actually do something to combat the problem. The things that need to be done are...

#1. Doing more to raise the minimum wage and more importantly the living wage in this country, so that people can actually make enough money to get themselves out of holes before they end up on the street.

#2. Funding, funding, and funding. We frivoulesly spend/lose money on things that we don't need, like corporate welfare and the defense budget (what goes to research and development, not what goes to troops), while conservative think tanks push false ideas like "tax reform will create jobs" to justify tax cuts for the wealthy. We need to quit that nonsense, because it cuts off our noses to spite our faces. We need to fund programs that will genuinely help those who are in need; mental health programs, housing programs, etc., etc. And, these things need to be real programs, not enslavement of the poor programs like welfare to work programs here in Michigan.

On this note, I will say that our state has done a lot to improve the unemployment agency in Michigan. It is a lot more effecient and user friendly. There are a lot of job search locations that provide resume building tools, computers/email, fax machines, etc. All these things prevent people from ending up on the street. Unfortunatily, though, these improvements are only made in times when unemployment rates are high among the upper middle class as well as the lower and poor; once things improve, or at least once it LOOKS like things have improved due to the conservative spin, they will cut funding to the agencies and things could turn crappy again. Plus, the Fed. needs to not do things to sabatoge the positive efforts to try to make the administrations numbers look better, like kicking people off unemployment after 6 mo. cold turkey whether they are employed or not.

So we need to do real things to help, and fund these things, rather then pretending we are helping.

#3. Do something to combat consumerism. Personally responsability applies here, however, regular people are fighting against powerful think tanks and PR firms that infiltrate every aspect of their lives, selling the consumerist mentality. Ideas like: buying more now is better then just buying what you need, success is measured by how much you have compared to your neighbors, it's O.K. to be in 'manageable debt.' with credit cards, your class is based on how big your hat is rather then how much cattle you have (or the exterior rather then equity), and so on and so on. People don't need to have DVD surround sounds, plasma TV's, expensive new cars, etc, to be happy, and they especially don't need it if they can't afford it.

Now the homeless aren't the ones buying a plasma TV and then filing for bankrupcy...I understand that. However, the consumerist mentality basically says that you are not a valued citizen unless you can consume or buy. This is opposed to a better mentality of being valued by your work. If we value people for their work (not making a difference whether they are the garbage man or the doctor) then people will feel more valued just to be a productive citizen, regardless of what they do. And, society will be more empethetic towards those who are in a bind, but who truely desire to work. Instead, we only really value people on how much they can produce and consume, and if your on the low end of either (like the poor and the homeless) then nobody is going to give too craps about you, regardless of your desire to work and be a contributing citizen.

I hope this one makes sense.

Anyways, these are just a few solutions, but we need to make a conscience effort to do some of these things, and vote based on some of these things to combat real problems, instead of voting based on fear that the liberals are taking our values, boys are kissing on Telivision, the government is taking our money, and the terrorists could attack us at any time.

It start with our votes, and everyone doing a little part to help.

Paul

Yep Makes perfect sense!

 

[Oak Bo]

I hear you say that govenment(ie:taxpayer)-funded social programs don't work.

Then I ask you:
Why do countries with significantly more generous taxpayer-funded social programs have significantly less homeless and - more to the point of this thread - significantly fewer panhandlers?
(See Canada, New Zealand, & other more socialist countries cited in this & other threads)

Why dont you tell us?

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Why dont you tell us?

I would guess, because they can and do work elsewhere.