Opinions on XMA

[Sylo]

Do XMA people spar? ever?

I've been scouring the youtube.. and you'd think if they were such great martial artists.. I could find at least 1 video of some of the XMA stars in sparring competition..

hmm.. Matt Mullins ever competed in sparring?

 

[exile]

hmm.. Matt Mullins ever competed in sparring?

Yes, actually, he competed at that US karate nationals tournament that they did the Discover Channel special/DVD on. Wound up losing in a very TKDish-looking match... he was working with a kickboxing coach in fact as part of his prep for the tournament; and the fact is, he'd won the NASKA championship five times or something like that previously, and is a very experienced tournament fighter (some basic data here). See, Mullins himself is unusual: he studied in a very traditional dojo, maybe still does, and has terrific basic skills in core karate. The sloppiness of a lot of his imitators is more the problem than MM himself, I think (though there's a kind of performance vulgarity that he indulges in, a kind of showboating, that bothers me a lot; remember in Amadeus, when Mozart says, in that very poignant scene, 'I'm a vulgar man, but my music isn't vulgar'—my issue with MM's DC video is that a lot of the stuff in that vid seems to be a deliberate show-biz vulgarization of karate, even outside the XMA context, e.g., in just normal kata competition).

It's always that way: someone branches out from a base of solid skills, but the people who follow that pioneer often aren't nearly so well prepared.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I can certainly appreciate and respect the playing of devil's advocate here...it makes this discussion more enjoyable.

I will grant you the first paragraph up there. There are indeed people who don't regard TKD as a pratical martial art. The thing is, if you research TKD, you will find that the origins were for SD purposes. The problem is that along the way, McDojo's ruined the name, and TKD became known as a joke to alot of people.

I know a little martial history....lol...and it isn't just TKD that suffers due to what I call the "Power Ranger Mentality" of the general public. I think most martial arts outside of what is percieved as UFC style MMA is not taken too seriously by the masses any more....

...and in truth, must admit that XMA probably doesn't help that stereotype, but again must argue that they are within their rights to claim what they do as "martial arts."

If you research XMA, their origins do not point to anything to do with SD at all. And, as stated before, SD is the key to martail arts...otherwise, the art is not martial.

I did a little reasearch...heck...I even tried to be helpful and post a link in this very thread so that others could do the same. ROFL

Considering that most members of the XMA team have roots in and attend TKD schools, then your own argument contradicts itself.

Even performanced based arts are still martial arts. The difference is that there is still the martial aspect inbedded in them. XMA is not performance based, its core is performance, and everything else falls around that.

Capoeira is performance based, but with an SD core. Tai Chi as well. While they may look really awesome, they still have the basis of combat...and I honestly wouldn't mind losing in a forms competition to someone from either art.

And as far as someone from XMA being classically trained...I'm not debating that at all. There are quite a few metal guitarists out there and shred the guitar apart who started out playing on a nylon stringed flaminco styled guitar.

The difference is that someone from XMA is not transferring their knowledge of self defense into the showiness of the art...it's all about show. And while this is very useful for marketing, as you're saying, it is still not fair to someone who still practices TMA to compete in the same competition.

Granted and agree that for XMA to compete against TMA oriented individuals is not an equal contest.

And what you're saying about getting the public's attention using XMA to get them in the door is 100% correct, and I see nothing at all wrong with that....I fell in love with martial arts after seeing Best of the Best, Karate Kid, and Gymkata, and I practice a true SD martial art to this day. If that's what gets them in the door, great!

The point of all this is that there is a place for those guys, and it's not in a traditional setting. It's makes the TMAists look inferior in forms competitions when they're all competing together. I'm certainly not dogging on XMA at all...I love to watch it, for no other reason than to wonder how on earth they even figure out how to do that, let alone practice it.

I'm just saying that the playing field is not even as far as judging the forms competition goes...and that if the XMAists don't want to stop competing in the traditional tournements, I think there should be a rule that says that if your form is an XMA styled form, and you insist on competing with TMAists in the form competition, then you should have to automatically sign up for the sparring comepitition, no matter if it's full or light contact.

No argument there.

Be that as it may, it doesn't mean they ever bothered to get it right (proper chamber positions, directions of motion, proper lines, position of joints and angles) before moving on to backflips.

In other words: sure, they might have completed a TMA curriculum — but with a C or D grade instead of an A or B.

My opinion is (and that's what was asked for, right? Opinions?) is that student would be better of bringing their basics up to an A grade

and then adding in some backflips and 720-degree turns instead of rushing past the basics to do the flashy stuff.

I can't speak to the whole team, but one of the team members was a student of Jamie Seabrook, and I garauntee you as such she has strong basics. I'd even venture to say that she probably had her basics up to an A grade.

Granted, it's hard to have a solid stance flipping around in the air. But for the same reasons stated above against them competing in forms competitions, they aren't exactly performing to TMA standards when they're putting on a demo. The goal is different.

 

[Flying Crane]

Capoeira is performance based, but with an SD core. Tai Chi as well. While they may look really awesome, they still have the basis of combat...and I honestly wouldn't mind losing in a forms competition to someone from either art.

Regarding Capoeira, I'd generally argue against this statement, but the truth is that this is becoming more and more true. It seems to me that many schools are looking more at the "WOW" aspect for performance, to the detriment of the art as a whole.

Regarding Taiji, I don't think this statement really holds up. Taiji isn't generally done as a performance art. It sort of takes someone with a good taiji background to be able to appreciate what he sees in a taiji demonstration. To most people, it's just boring to watch, so it doesn't make for a good performance art. However, what most people practice nowadays in taiji is just exercise for health, without much or any focus on the fighting side of the art. But I don't think that is the same as being a Performance Art.

 

[YoungMan]

The thing with XMA is that it is strictly designed as a performance style. That is, it is totally choreographed and used to showboat and show flash. I'm certainly not taking away from the athletic abilities of the participants, but it bears as much relation to real martial arts as pro wrestling does to actual wrestling. XMA is the WWE of martial arts.

 

[Cirdan]

Do XMA people spar? ever?

Sure they do, prearranged sparring with lightsabers :jediduel: :lol:

 

[BrandonLucas]

First, there's nothing wrong with lightsabers...

Seriously, though, I just don't understand how XMA is a stand-alone martail art. Performance art? Sure. I like the comparison to the WWE of wrestling...those guys are certainly talented and are in great physical shape, but how many of them could really get in a true Greco-Roman wrestling match and win? Kurt Angle, maybe...but the vast majority of them wouldn't know what to do.

To me, XMA is a take-it-or-leave-it expansion for a core TMA. It is not a martial art unto itself...it doesn't matter how many guys have strong roots in the core arts. The average Joe off the street can't just walk in and sign up for classes for XMA alone and expect to make it look good.

Here is a quote on what XMA is from the site that was linked earlier on page 1:

"Xtreme Martail Arts, or XMA, is a mixed sport of acrobatics, gymnastics and martial arts. XMA also sets an X-gmaes kind of pace to weapons drills as well. It is a combination of techniques, methods of movements and philosophies from all martial arts styles. It is a mxture of virtually all martial arts styles blended together with high-flying acrobatics and gymnastics.

To quote Micke Chat, creator of XMA, the program is: "The ability to perform highly skilled moves and also the ability to perform basic moves and make them look spectacular! This is why XMA is not only for the elite level athletes and competitors, but also for beginners at the entry level as well. It is the look in one's eyes and position of one's body that tells the story. It's not only about punching and kicking, or jumping and flipping, but more, showing strength through the mind as well as the body. To stand planted with your feet on the ground and command the attention of the audience without sound or movement, using only the look in your eyes and the strength of your stance, actually shows more power than any punch, kick or flip. That's Xtreme! XMA (Xtreme Martial Arts) is gret for the extreme person and the not so extreme! The great thing about XMA is that it's designed for anyone...You don't need any prior knowledge of martial arts to try it out (or look good doing it either!) The point of the XMA class is to take the skills that students already have and turn them to the XTREME!"

The bolded part on that statement I added for emphasis...

All of the schools that are listed are already TKD schools, like CC was saying. And yet, the website is trying to say that the XMA "program" is a stand-alone martial art.

The other problem with that is that these TKD schools are almost all ATA schools...and very likely McDojo's. I can't say with any certainty, but seriously...how many truly SD schools out there are going to add this junk into their cirriculum? Looks like something else to pay for to me.

I still fail to see how anything XMA is a martial art under the definition of the word...sure, it's a martial art in the sense that Tae Kwon Do is Karate to the general public....but we as martial artists should know better. It is a performance art. Period. Not martial.

 

[BrandonLucas]

One other thing I forgot to add:

How is XMA a fusion of virtually all the martial arts? I don't see any Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo, etc....all that term is, is a way to blanket cover what they're attempting to do, so that they don't have to say that "Oh, yeah, that kick was a TKD kick, while this punching combination comes from an Okinawan form."

That, to me, is the marketing crap that ruins martial arts.

 

[StuartA]

but again must argue that they are within their rights to claim what they do as "martial arts."

Technically it doesnt... martial arts are so named after Mars, the God of war and so it means 'war arts'.. no XMA comp has anything whatsoever to do with that.. that said, it doesnt mean that someone who does XMA cannot be (or perhaps once was) a martial artist (with XMA as an extra to that).. but XMA by itself, is not a martial art, but a performance.

That said, each to their own, people are free to do what they want and I guess it does bring kiddies into the dojangs and help those who want movie/stunt careers to gain a profile!


Stuart

 

[BrandonLucas]

Technically it doesnt... martial arts are so named after Mars, the God of war and so it means 'war arts'.. no XMA comp has anything whatsoever to do with that.. that said, it doesnt mean that someone who does XMA cannot be (or perhaps once was) a martial artist (with XMA as an extra to that).. but XMA by itself, is not a martial art, but a performance.

That said, each to their own, people are free to do what they want and I guess it does bring kiddies into the dojangs and help those who want movie/stunt careers to gain a profile!


Stuart

Very well said!

 

[KickFest]

it doesnt mean that someone who does XMA cannot be (or perhaps once was) a martial artist (with XMA as an extra to that).. but XMA by itself, is not a martial art, but a performance.

Gah, you beat me to it!

This is further reinforced by BrandonLucas' quote:

You don't need any prior knowledge of martial arts to try it out (or look good doing it either!)

I've not seen it happen, but whoever thought that putting this stuff up against TMA patterns in tournaments was a good idea needs their head examined! :whip:

 

[BrandonLucas]

To further reinforce the point, I'm posting a link to a forum on the XMA site that was linked by Celtic Crippler...check what TeamSharkey posts in response, and he practices XMA:

http://www.xmarevolution.com/XMABoards/tabid/54/forumid/1/threadid/234/scope/posts/Default.aspx

And just in case you don't want to click on the link, I'll copy and paste what he said here:

"I am one of those people. I have trained in traditional martial arts as well as some eclectic arts. I did Thai boxing in my youth as well. The with people in the tradtional arts is not the art but the one deminsional thinking that people use. To many people just spit back what they are taught without thinking outside the box. Now is traditional martial arts the answer to everything? Nope, but neither is MMA. However I respect the hell out those fighters as they are some of the toughest trained athletes around. I love watchnig the UFC and Pride. Would I personally step into a cage? HELL NO!!! I'm way too pretty to fight. Plus I have a real job where I can't afford to sustain an injury that will prohibit me from working. Now I just like to point out a couple of things you mentioned that you were ignorant on (and I don't mean that in a bad way. I am talking that you lacked knowledge on the subject)

1) There is the traditional martial art world and there is the tournament world. If you were to keep going to tournaments you would have learned that it is mostly for performance and not exactly what you would do at your school. It is like gymnastics. If you go to the gymnastics club you practice the flips and tumbles. You would even do some floor exercises. However when you go to the competition you would perform...face gestures, body language, etc. This is the same for most touranments. It is not everyone's cup of tea.

2) XMA is not a martial art. I don't know why people think it is. It is simply a program used to enhance the performance aspect of the martial arts. It is not a form of self defense, nor should anyone go around saying "I have a black belt in XMA". If they do, then they are either the biggest idiot in the world or their instructor needs to slapped big time for putting that idea in their head. So if you thought that XMA was a new martial art, then you were sadly mistaken. I'm not sure how much research you did on it, but apparently not enough.

If the MMA world works for you that is great and I'm happy that you found something that you can excel in. I give you props because I know that is not an easy training regimine. However, if you came on to this site simply to pick a flame war on how XMA is just an inferior martial art and people shouldn't waste their time doing it, then please don't bother. Not everyone wants to be the next Matt Hughes. Some people just enjoy doing their tradtional arts along with doing sport karate tournament. To each his own."​

 

[miguksaram]

Hey everyone,

1) Are the people who practice XMA actually martial artists that have a background in some form of TMA, or are they gymnasts who figured out how to kick and punch like they do in the movies?

99% of the people who compete in extreme divisions are indeed martial artists that have some sort of traditional background. The other 1% are gymnasts who have been taught basic martial arts.

2) If the poeple who practice XMA are not based in TMA's, is XMA still considered a martial art?

No. XMA is not and never was a martial art style. Anyone who tells you differently doesn't know what they are talking about. XMA is an extra curricular program that was designed by Mike Chat. It is based in combining traditional martial arts as well as performance arts into a program that a school can add to its curriculum if it wishes to do more demo type performances or compete in specific divisions in open martial art tournaments.

3) If XMA is going to be considered a martail art, then why don't the XMA stylists enter any of the sparring competitions?

Again, XMA is not a martial art. It is just an extra curricular program based on martial arts.

4) Even though most tournements seperate the XMA stylists from the traditional stylists in Kata competition, how is it legit that XMA stylists are allowed to compete in the same forum as the traditionalists? Even if the competitions are judged on different criteria, the addition of XMA into the tournement is going to overshadow the traditional competition, so how is this fair to the traditionalists?

For the most part they are seperated. In national tournaments such as NASKA, you will see the divisions combined in the end for overall championship divisions. Contrary to popular belief XMA does not always overshadow TMA. I have seen TMA forms defeat XMA forms several times. They are based on individual performance of the form. If we were to get very picky then even in TMA form divisions how can you judge a Korean form against an Okinawan form?

No offense intended to anyone on here who practices XMA...in fact, it would be great to hear from someone who has done XMA in the past or is practicing it currently.

Our school has an extreme martial art program that kids can join on the weekend. It is seperate from our traditional program and you are required to attend at least 2 traditional classes a week if you are to attend the extreme martial art class. We have found that the kids really do enjoy it and it keeps them motivated and digs into their creative side. Our program is very successful considering we have people from all over US and parts of Europe who come in on the weekends to work out with us as well as attend our 30 day boot camp, 4 day summer camp and 4 day winter camp.

I would be happy to answer any other questions you have on extreme martial art programs.

 

[miguksaram]

Do XMA people spar? ever?

I've been scouring the youtube.. and you'd think if they were such great martial artists.. I could find at least 1 video of some of the XMA stars in sparring competition..

hmm.. Matt Mullins ever competed in sparring?

Yes, he did in his early years of competition. He did sparring, weapons and forms (traditional, creative and extreme).

Craig Henningsen also sparred. There are people up until last year who did XMA and fought such as Donald Mills. Brendon Huor used to be on Juan Moreno's TKD Team Force. Jason Tankson-Bourley, though not a top XMA person fights. Point being there are a lot that do both or used to do both.

 

[miguksaram]

Yes, actually, he competed at that US karate nationals tournament that they did the Discover Channel special/DVD on. Wound up losing in a very TKDish-looking match... he was working with a kickboxing coach in fact as part of his prep for the tournament; and the fact is, he'd won the NASKA championship five times or something like that previously, and is a very experienced tournament fighter (some basic data here).

A litte more data on that was that whole US Open part of the XMA special was a last minute decision that the producers wanted to do. Prior to that Matt was pretty much retired from competition and working on his acting carreer. So that whole "comeback" angle they were going for was really a farce. Matt in no way was seeking to comeback into sport karate. But I digress.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Yes, he did in his early years of competition. He did sparring, weapons and forms (traditional, creative and extreme).

Craig Henningsen also sparred. There are people up until last year who did XMA and fought such as Donald Mills. Brendon Huor used to be on Juan Moreno's TKD Team Force. Jason Tankson-Bourley, though not a top XMA person fights. Point being there are a lot that do both or used to do both.

I think for this the sparring issue goes back to the XMAists already having a solid core in TMA's. Since they have the prior experience, then sure, they would be able to spar, since they should have already done it before.

What I would be interested in seeing is one of the XMAists that they claim can be taught with no martial arts experience in a sparring match.

 

[celtic_crippler]

...hmmm...

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that XMA is not a martial art by itself, but is mostly performed by martial artists?

 

[miguksaram]

The problem I have with XMAs in traditional MA tournaments is that the ultra-flash factor they mostly consist of puts pressure on competitors to move more and more in that direction, even if they're competing under the rubric of traditional MA. A vivid example of this is that awful Discovery Channel special on Matthew Mullins that came out on DVD a couple of years ago. If you look at the tournament, the US karate nationals, you can see it's not a dedicated XMA venue; but you can also see how it's going to get that way after a while as a result of the 'sizzle', 'flash', 'excitement' and other crap that the breathless-cheerleader narration keeps going into ecstacy about.

Well that has been almost 5 years ago since that video was made and nothing has changed. The participation in traditional divisions still far out weigh that of the extreme divisions. Even more is the fact that the kids that compete in the extreme divisions also compete in traditional divisions and tend to do very well in them.

 

[miguksaram]

What I would be interested in seeing is one of the XMAists that they claim can be taught with no martial arts experience in a sparring match.

Doubt it will happen. They are only in it for the performance not the fighting.

 

[miguksaram]

...hmmm...

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that XMA is not a martial art by itself, but is mostly performed by martial artists?

It is safe to say that XMA is just a martial arts supplemental program for martial art schools wishing to diversify into more performance like demos and competitions.