bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
You're forgetting budo, which is central to much of Japanese martial arts history -- and definitely includes elements that trend toward the "art" side of the equation.
XMA - your feelings?
- Thread starter Balrog
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You're forgetting budo, which is central to much of Japanese martial arts history -- and definitely includes elements that trend toward the "art" side of the equation.
fangjian
Black Belt
Yes. I originally added it to my post but didn't wanna get into philosophy.
People will interpret the word "art" in all sorts of ways. MMA, XMA, Capoeira and French Fencing are martial arts.
I'll go along with 3 of the 4 as viable fighting or combat usable martial arts.
fangjian
Black Belt
I would agree that there exist martial arts better suited for combat in general, than XMA. But I have a problem excluding them just 'cause I think there are some systems that are better.
I understand XMA is probably 99% performance. But what is a martial art? Where do you draw the line.
"It has to be no more than 20% performance? 5% ?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You guys. We need to stop and somebody needs to explain to me what you mean when you use "art." Frankly, I don't get it.
I look at what my buddies do and it's ALL art. I'm glad fanjian brought up his points because I was thinking the same thing. It sounds like everyone has a very different idea of what constitutes "art."
Regarding XMA, I guess I'd ask whether you think that Matt Damon, learning choreography for a martial arts movie such as The Bourne Identity, is studying in a martial art. Would you say that the fight scenes are martial arts? I wouldn't. I'd say, even if they're real moves derived from legit martial arts, that the choreography is performance. XMA is like that. Wushu is like that. It's a stylized representation of martial arts-like movements designed to be performed in front of an audience.
It's not a matter of better or worse. It's (to me) a matter of applicability or not. XMA is not applicable. Its roots were, but not as it's played, like modern wushu.
At solely martial performance vs martial application done in a demonstrative manner (such as demonstrations of sets/kata/hyung/tao lu, etc...)
Not by percentage. By demonstration & explanation.
For instance & argument... you can demonstrate a single side kick in the air & then in use with tight control & body mechanics. Fine & valid.
But the multiple kicks with the same leg & the foot flipping around like a fish on a line. Fine & valid for performance, but where's the valid application of a loose foot in a kick? Are you really going to be able to kick somebody "X" times in head while they just sit there & let you? How about your foot? The first time you make solid contact with a loose foot, I'll make the call to the orthopedist for you.
Lots of luck!!
Yeah... I believe that's a large point right there.
Nah... movie fu for performance only. XMA-ish. Based on actual applicable MA, but nothing more than a performance, like the script he follows for dialog.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Exactly! Even when you get a martial artist involved, what he's doing on set is a performance. Take Robert Downey Jr. in Sherlock Holmes. He's a WC guy, and some of the movements in the movie are derived from WC. There are also elements of other styles mixed in, too. And the result looks great... impressive! But is it Martial Arts? No. It's a performance. Even though Downey Jr. is a martial artist, what he's doing is theater. Just like XMA and Wushu.
Right... martial performance vs martial art... sounds about we're talking about the same stuff.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
I was just about to open a new thread just on this topic. I think you hit it on the head about the disagreement is where we draw the line. I see a few rough categories:
art -- painting, fight choreography
martial art -- tai chi, capoeira
martial art -- kenpo, shotokan, kung fu
martial art -- boxing, MMA, wrestling
martial -- squad tactics, handgun training
Some folks in the tai chi camp would say the MMA guy isn't a martial artist. Some MMA folks say the capoeira guy isn't in. This thread seems to be debating -- mostly -- whether XMA is martial art, or just art.
But again, and here I'm looking at you Steve, what's the motivation that makes many of use want to welcome fewer people rather than more? I don't get it. The right spirit and attitude could make fingerpainting a martial art, neh?
art -- painting, fight choreography
martial art -- tai chi, capoeira
martial art -- kenpo, shotokan, kung fu
martial art -- boxing, MMA, wrestling
martial -- squad tactics, handgun training
Some folks in the tai chi camp would say the MMA guy isn't a martial artist. Some MMA folks say the capoeira guy isn't in. This thread seems to be debating -- mostly -- whether XMA is martial art, or just art.
But again, and here I'm looking at you Steve, what's the motivation that makes many of use want to welcome fewer people rather than more? I don't get it. The right spirit and attitude could make fingerpainting a martial art, neh?
fangjian
Black Belt
I kinda see where you're goin with that. Something like Taijiquan ( Capoeira too ) though, some schools may focus on performance, other schools do not care about that. If it looks beautiful, it is a 'side effect'. The martial art category seems for performance.
You're martial art category are all 'sport' oriented. So others that would go there could be : Sanda, Muay Thai, fencing, Judo, ......?
In your martial art category has, I guess, styles that are geared toward self defense. So others that could be there would be specifically, Wing Chun, Kajukenbo, KunTao etc ?
So your 3 categories of martial arts are: Performance, Self Defense, Sport
With Self Defense and Sport oriented giving you fighting skill, and the others just giving you some of the attributes ( conditioning, strength ), like what you'd get from doing football or hockey.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Pretty close, although I'd also include "development" in the "art" section. Tai chi,for example, isn't about performance, it's about physical and personal development. Aikido as taught in some cases is more about energy and ethics than self defense, and would fit in that category as well.
Your additional examples, though, are right in line with what I'm thinking.
Any thoughts on the why part of the question?
Your additional examples, though, are right in line with what I'm thinking.
Any thoughts on the why part of the question?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'm lookin' at you, too. Mister.
Here's where I'm at. It's nothing to do with being exclusive. It's all about being honest and respectful and specific. I love the English language, but we're sometimes so lazy (or desire so much to be inclusive) that we fail to be specific and the meaning gets lost.
So, in answer to your question, I guess I'd have to say, "Neh." No matter how much spirit or how great an attitude one might have, fingerpainting will never be a martial art. Certainly, it's artistic. But it's not a martial art.
To suggest that a finger painter, even a skilled one, is a martial artist is, IMO, insulting to both the finger painter AND to martial artists. To the finger painter because it completely misses the intent of the activity and suggests that it should be something that it is not... that it can't be appreciated for simply being art. And to the martial artists because it suggests that there are no standards.
XMA is terrific. I love watching them do their thing. It's cool for what it is. Why would anyone feel that it's necessary to make it more than it is? The question that I have for you is, why does XMA have to be considered a martial art in order for you to appreciate it? If, as you say, this is about being inclusive and appreciating the journey, why must everyone climb the same mountain?
And, for someone so intent on being inclusive, you seem to be very comfortable assigning labels with a broad brush. I've said several times that i consider MMA to be very artistic. I've asked several times to define "art" and you've yet to do so. Why would you put kung fu in one category and mma in another? I mean... if we're all climbing the same mountain?
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Interesting points.
It all boils down to intent I suppose. Musashi, for example, was very clear that you can gain martial insight from painting and calligraphy. A finger painter isn't a martial artist, but a martial artist can practice his style by finger painting. Ballroom dance is not a martial arts, but I am training every time I go to class with my wife: footwork, timing, rhythm, awareness of intent...it's my mindset, not the activity, that makes me a martial artist in every moment (on good days).
"Art" is any vehicle or practice for personal expression. When used to describe "martial arts," I think it refers mostly to the parts of training that are more about personal development and performance -- or the styles that emphasize those aspects of training.
About inclusion -- that earlier list was my feeble attempt to express what it seems many other people believe. Far as I'm concerned, MMA, Aikido, Hapkido, XMA, Wushu and Capoeira are all "martial arts." And if an old master chooses to fingerpaint when his body is too old to run forms, he can -- in his fingerpainting -- still be practicing his martial arts.
No, XMA doesn't have to be considered a martial art for me to appreciate it...but it feels like we're denigrating XMA practitioners by saying they're not "worthy" of being considered one of us. It doesn't feel "honest and respectful and specific." It feels judgmental and a little bit petty.
Note - not calling you petty, Steve. Addressing the phenomenon as a whole.
It all boils down to intent I suppose. Musashi, for example, was very clear that you can gain martial insight from painting and calligraphy. A finger painter isn't a martial artist, but a martial artist can practice his style by finger painting. Ballroom dance is not a martial arts, but I am training every time I go to class with my wife: footwork, timing, rhythm, awareness of intent...it's my mindset, not the activity, that makes me a martial artist in every moment (on good days).
"Art" is any vehicle or practice for personal expression. When used to describe "martial arts," I think it refers mostly to the parts of training that are more about personal development and performance -- or the styles that emphasize those aspects of training.
About inclusion -- that earlier list was my feeble attempt to express what it seems many other people believe. Far as I'm concerned, MMA, Aikido, Hapkido, XMA, Wushu and Capoeira are all "martial arts." And if an old master chooses to fingerpaint when his body is too old to run forms, he can -- in his fingerpainting -- still be practicing his martial arts.
No, XMA doesn't have to be considered a martial art for me to appreciate it...but it feels like we're denigrating XMA practitioners by saying they're not "worthy" of being considered one of us. It doesn't feel "honest and respectful and specific." It feels judgmental and a little bit petty.
Note - not calling you petty, Steve. Addressing the phenomenon as a whole.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You're muddying things up unnecessarily. We can all improve ourselves through the dedicated pursuit of excellence in anything. And this very dedication in one activity can inform all of the other tasks to which we apply ourselves. Painting and calligraphy could just as easily be cooking or fabric dying or chess or playing the clarinet. All of these things are valuable and the same dedication to improving one activity can carry over to all of the others. But that doesn't make playing a musical instrumental a martial art, nor does it make painting or calligraphy martial arts. Or XMA, to tie it back to the point of this thread.
And so, I wonder why you would exclude boxing or MMA. It doesn't take long at all to find hundreds... likely thousands of stories about people who were literally saved from lives of crime by finding their way into a boxing or MMA gym.
But even in stories not so overt, everyone who trains in a combat sport knows that they are tested every single class. MMA training is about testing oneself and pushing one's training partners. It's about continual improvement and being better today than you were yesterday. I'd argue that in a combat sport, such as BJJ, MMA, boxing, wrestling or Judo, the training is extremely spiritual, and the self discovery is profound. If that's how you define art, then surely we both agree that combat sports are both Martial AND Arts.
You lost me here. MMA, Aikido, Hapkido, Capoeira... yes. I agree. XMA or Wushu? No, although they are likely performed by martial artists who train in a martial art, such as TKD or Sanda.
And fingerpainting just isn't a martial art, regardless of intent. Sorry. I just don't agree. Dale Earnhart Jr. is an awesome race car driver. He's dedicated himself to learning to drive at a very high level. The techniques he uses to coax his car around the track as quickly as possible are well beyond most people. But that doesn't make it a martial art. Even if he translates lessons learned from driving directly to a martial art.
Honestly, I believe that this is because you're ascribing more value to the term Martial Art than it deserves. Frankly, it would only denigrate XMA if NOT being a martial art was a bad thing. I don't believe it is. It's not good or bad... it just is. Ballet isn't a martial art, but it's awesome. My family watches So You Think You Can Dance and we love it. I'm astounded at how fit, athletic and talented all of those kids are. They don't care that what they do isn't a martial art. It's very, very cool. Calling it a martial art would be downright weird. It's dancing, not fighting.
Not offended in the slightest. I'm enjoying the discussion.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. For me, the implication that everything I do, all the time, is part of my training....clarifies.
Agree completely that they have just as much claim to being "martial arts" as the other choices. Disagree that they're as...overt (?)...about it. It's possible to develop spiritually via boxing, for example, but the boxing gym that includes meditation, healing and an overtly expresses ethical code is rare. Like I've been saying, it's emphasis, not exclusion.
Fair enough...just remember than Musashi, Kano and likely Mr. Miyagi are on my side of the argument.
Again, fair enough. But there are plenty of folks who seem to feel that it is a bad thing -- that, because they study kenpo or BJJ or another "real" martial art, they're somehow better than the XMA guys. It's another expression of the lame "my kung fu is better than your kung fu" chest-thumping that so many green through shodan guys seem to get into.
I'm also enjoying this. Thanks for keeping it rolling.
Kittan Bachika
Purple Belt
Isn't XMA just creative forms? Also isn't it similar to Wushu?
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
We have basically a XMA program as a supplementary class in our school and some might even argue that our demo team (original West Coast Demo Team and later "Ernie Reyes' World Action Team") were some of the early forefathers of XMA. However, for us it has always just been a supplement. It began with demo team members hanging out after practice pushing the physical envelope. It is/was always something athletic and artistic that we did on the side and was never a substitute for our ""real" martial arts training. I would assume that is the case for the vast majority who do XMA.
I can only speak for my own school and knowledge of my Association's schools, but XMA has been popular among the younger advanced students (mostly teens) as a way of pushing that envelope and challenging themselves. We train in MMA, submission grappling, boxing, kickboxing(MT), and Escrima in our curriculum and classes. We have a strong legacy of high level fighters (both Strikeforce and American Kickboxing Academy have their roots directly from our schools), so the MARTIAL part is and always has been there, but for us it has never been and "either/or" thing. BTW, most of the guys who are better at XMA are usually some of the best athletes and often among the better fighters, too.
I would not consider XMA a martial art unto itself, but I doubt very few of the people who do XMA are only doing that or thinking that way either. Mike Chat, who was the guy smart enough to organize and cash in on tricking and create the XMA brand, has always been the first to put an emphasis on good, solid martial arts basics as the roots and foundation that leads to what he does and sells. From my observations, it seems the ones trying to portray XMA as a martial art of it's own are it's critics who don't even participate in it.
I can only speak for my own school and knowledge of my Association's schools, but XMA has been popular among the younger advanced students (mostly teens) as a way of pushing that envelope and challenging themselves. We train in MMA, submission grappling, boxing, kickboxing(MT), and Escrima in our curriculum and classes. We have a strong legacy of high level fighters (both Strikeforce and American Kickboxing Academy have their roots directly from our schools), so the MARTIAL part is and always has been there, but for us it has never been and "either/or" thing. BTW, most of the guys who are better at XMA are usually some of the best athletes and often among the better fighters, too.
I would not consider XMA a martial art unto itself, but I doubt very few of the people who do XMA are only doing that or thinking that way either. Mike Chat, who was the guy smart enough to organize and cash in on tricking and create the XMA brand, has always been the first to put an emphasis on good, solid martial arts basics as the roots and foundation that leads to what he does and sells. From my observations, it seems the ones trying to portray XMA as a martial art of it's own are it's critics who don't even participate in it.
fangjian
Black Belt
So what if I add the combat applications to my Modern Wushu forms? Is it martial arts now? When I would teach Modern Wushu, to get the 'black belt' type of level, I would require that my student know how to perform 3 forms of their choosing ( of maybe like 15-30 that I know). I would also teach them, all of the applications that I knew, or 'figured out'. Some movements I would be clear, that I didn't know the application, or if there was one.
What if I only taught the applications 'sometimes'? Or what if ?
Where ( about ) is the line drawn? I know, there probably isn't one.
What if I only taught the applications 'sometimes'? Or what if ?
Where ( about ) is the line drawn? I know, there probably isn't one.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Is it part of the style or something you've added? You guys know better about CMA than I do, so you tell me. Don't guys who train in Wushu often train in Sanda or Sanshou or something like that, as well?
And, thinking it through, if we compare it again to movie choreography, the combat applications are apparent in a movie... it's just choreographed. The actor is taught what the purpose of the moves are, so that he or she can act them out. And we have all (I believe) agreed that movie fighting isn't a martial art.
In the What is Aliveness thread, I mentioned Bloom's Taxonomy of learning. The lowest three levels are Knowledge, Comprehension and Application. In my opinion, to be a martial art, you have to at least ALLEGE to get to Application in the combat system. I believe some martial arts schools fail this completely and others are only marginally successful, but at least they try.
Wushu doesn't typically, as I understand it, even allege to be a fighting system. It's a demonstration system related to a fighting system. As XMA is a demonstration system for TKD guys (or whoever else).
