Opinions on XMA

[BrandonLucas]

Because I'd gather that the XMA guys all have some sort of traditional martial arts background and simply consider what they do to be an extension of that, while the WTF and many who practice sport taekwondo are very adamant that it (sport tkd) isn't a martial art.

Since most of the big commercial schools and the Olympics are what people see of taekwondo, and since WTF sparring definitely looks a lot more like a sport than martial arts, taekwondo is called a sport. Lets not forget that the WTF has worked very hard to cultivate it as a sport. And in the mind of the uneducated, the WTF is taekwondo. The WTF says that it is a sport. It looks like a sport. The competitors behave like its a sport. So people simply assume that its a sport.

Daniel

I see your point and I agree...but XMA is just as much of a sport as Olympic style sparring is. The same argument is applicable for XMA and Olympic style: many of the practitioners have a background in traditional martial arts, and consider what they do an extension of that.

The only difference that I can see is that WTF openly admits and markets the Olympic style as a sport, while XMA compete regularly in traditional tournements, making it hard for traditionalists to compete in their own tournement.

The way I see it, XMA should market itself the same way that the WTF does.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I see your point and I agree...but XMA is just as much of a sport as Olympic style sparring is. The same argument is applicable for XMA and Olympic style: many of the practitioners have a background in traditional martial arts, and consider what they do an extension of that.

I don't know. The top level competitors apparently don't if the Lopezes are any indication. The one very enthusiastic promoter of sport tkd on this board has suggested that the name be changed and that it isn't a martial art. All of the terminology used in sport tkd and articles about sport tkd is lifted directly from the sports world: players, athletes, and game. The popular and effective techniques are only popular and effective because of the rules. In an actual fight, the entire dynamic of a sport tkd player would be worthless. Please note that I am not saying that a sport tkdist can't fight or defend themselves; they simply wouldn't do so with the techniques that they use to win matches.

The only difference that I can see is that WTF openly admits and markets the Olympic style as a sport, while XMA compete regularly in traditional tournements, making it hard for traditionalists to compete in their own tournement.

Absolutely agree with you here, though I see the kata/poomsae tournament advantage as more a function of uninformed judging. I have no doubt that if the judges switched gears and favored the more traditional flavor that the XMA practitioners could easily adapt, whereas placing Mark Lopez in the ring against Jason Frank would likely result in Lopez' rapid hospitalization.

The way I see it, XMA should market itself the same way that the WTF does.

Don't know. Not familiar enough with XMA to have an opinion.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

I

I have no doubt that if the judges switched gears and favored the more traditional flavor that the XMA practitioners could easily adapt, whereas placing Mark Lopez in the ring against Jason Frank would likely result in Lopez' rapid hospitalization.



Daniel

This is the greatest comparison ever! Gotta love the Green Ranger.

 

[exile]

The problem I have with XMAs in traditional MA tournaments is that the ultra-flash factor they mostly consist of puts pressure on competitors to move more and more in that direction, even if they're competing under the rubric of traditional MA. A vivid example of this is that awful Discovery Channel special on Matthew Mullins that came out on DVD a couple of years ago. If you look at the tournament, the US karate nationals, you can see it's not a dedicated XMA venue; but you can also see how it's going to get that way after a while as a result of the 'sizzle', 'flash', 'excitement' and other crap that the breathless-cheerleader narration keeps going into ecstacy about. You can see in the video how the blatant showboating of some of the weapons performers and substitution of loudness for precision in technique execution has changed judging standards even in, say, traditional kata competition. The special blathers on about tradition, and a firm foundation in the basics, and similar lip service to the obvious, but some of the baton-twirling that you see in the weapons forms, the back-flips and similar crap, has precisely zip to do with either the content or the execution-style of traditional karate; Mullins' own topless kata performance, preceded by his trademark spewing out a mouthful of water in the general direction of the audience just before he goes on, is if anything even more louche. Just as extremists in political organizations often push the center further and further toward the exteme, the 'X' in XMA pressures competitors who feel that classic performance and execution will not stand out against the background of triple-toe-loop style kata/hyung presentations that the DVD coverage was full of.

Get one table in a quiet restaurant talking loudly, and it's amazing how fast the general noise level goes up—what choice do you have, if you want to get heard over the background, except to raise your own voice accordingly? That I think is the real problem with mixing TMA/XMA competitions at the same event...

 

[Kwanjang]

Get one table in a quiet restaurant talking loudly, and it's amazing how fast the general noise level goes up—what choice do you have, if you want to get heard over the background, except to raise your own voice accordingly? That I think is the real problem with mixing TMA/XMA competitions at the same event...

Very nice analogy Exile!

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll relate a couple experiences of mine that aren't specifically XMA issues, but I think they are related.

First, I compete about once a year in a local tournament here specifically for Chinese stylists. I compete strictly in traditional forms competition, and I've managed to do fairly well over the years. My sifu does coach modern wushu as well as teach traditional wushu, and from the first day I began training with him, I made it clear that I am only interested in traditional methods. I have no interest in training or competing in Modern Wushu. In fact I'm not really interested in competition at all, but the local tournament at UC Berkeley is organized by my sifu, as he is the coach of the UC Berkelely Modern Wushu team. So I play nice and mainly compete to support him, at his tournament.

So at any rate, this tournament does have both Modern and Traditional wushu competitions, but they are kept separate from each other. A traditionalist will not find himself needing to compete against a flashy, flying, flipping modern wushu guy.

However, sometimes guys will try to compete in the traditional venue, when they really ought to be in the modern section. Maybe they have enhanced their traditional forms with some modern flash or something, but it's readily apparent when it happens because they look completely out of place. And I've seen the judges tell the competitors that they will deduct points from their score if they feel that the competitor should be with the Modern competition.

Specifically, I remember a tourney a couple years back when one particular competitor in my division was doing several forms (empty-hand and weapons), and he seemed to have a very strong Modern flavor. The judges noticed it too. At any rate, the competitor came into the ring to do his third competition or so, in the Long Weapons division. He came in with a waxwood staff that was clearly a Modern wushu type staff because it was very thin and whippy, which makes it fast but gives it little substance. As his performance began, I actually saw one judge lean over and whisper something to another judge, and they both chuckled for a moment. So it turns out this guy is doing a Drunken Staff form, which required him to lean backwards while propping himself up with the staff. In the middle of the form while doing this, his staff broke and he fell on his butt. I looked over at the judges, and the two who had the earlier whispered exchange were openly laughing and giving a "high-five". Clearly they knew what was up and I think they had a private bet going to see if something like this might happen.

Another little story: years ago my kenpo instructor judged at a kenpo tournament. Apparently the rules were structured so that scores would not be given below a certain minimum, depending on the level of the competitor. Example: an intermediate level competitor would be scored between say, 6.0 and 8.0, while those competing in the advanced division would be scored from 8.0 to 10.0. Something like that.

So a young woman enters the ring to compete, and states that she will do Kenpo kata Long One, which is one of our more basic kata. It consists mainly of basic stepping, blocking, and punching. Nothing fancy. I believe she was competing at an intermediate level. Anyway, in the middle of the form, she starts doing cartwheels. She finishes up, and the judges give their scores. My instructor gave her a two, when he was supposed to score her between 6.0 and 8.0. He was never invited back to judge again, and he just laughs about it.

Sometimes it can all be pretty funny.

 

[clfsean]

Specifically, I remember a tourney a couple years back when one particular competitor in my division was doing several forms (empty-hand and weapons), and he seemed to have a very strong Modern flavor. The judges noticed it too. At any rate, the competitor came into the ring to do his third competition or so, in the Long Weapons division. He came in with a waxwood staff that was clearly a Modern wushu type staff because it was very thin and whippy, which makes it fast but gives it little substance. As his performance began, I actually saw one judge lean over and whisper something to another judge, and they both chuckled for a moment. So it turns out this guy is doing a Drunken Staff form, which required him to lean backwards while propping himself up with the staff. In the middle of the form while doing this, his staff broke and he fell on his butt. I looked over at the judges, and the two who had the earlier whispered exchange were openly laughing and giving a "high-five". Clearly they knew what was up and I think they had a private bet going to see if something like this might happen.

I'm suprised they let him compete with it. At the CMA tournies I've seen & been to, I've seen the judges take a weapon in the traditional rings & prop the weapon up with a finger to make sure it can stand under it's own weight. If a blade folds or a staff bends or quivers with little or no applied motion, I've seen them sit the competitor down until they can get a heavier weight weapon or not allow them to compete.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm suprised they let him compete with it. At the CMA tournies I've seen & been to, I've seen the judges take a weapon in the traditional rings & prop the weapon up with a finger to make sure it can stand under it's own weight. If a blade folds or a staff bends or quivers with little or no applied motion, I've seen them sit the competitor down until they can get a heavier weight weapon or not allow them to compete.

Yeah, I hear a lot about that kind of thing, but it doesn't seem like I see it actually happens too often. Judges around here seem to be a bit lenient on that issue.

Personally, I wish they would be more strict about it to level the playing field a bit. I use monster weapons, solid heavy stuff, and it makes me slower than the guys with the light wushu crap. I tend to win anyway, and the judges drool over my weapons, so I guess it doesn't really matter. They definitely respect it.

 

[Mimir]

Like most everyone else, it doesn't bother me that XMA is out there and I certainly respect the athleticism that the practitioners have. I do think it is only fair to seperate the XMA forms from the traditional forms at tournaments.

 

[Kwan Jang]

At the NASKA and NBL tournaments, the extreme (XMA) competitors are given their own seperate divisions. In open/creative forms, competitors are not allowed to have a rotation above 360 degrees and their is no inverted (upside down) aeriel maneuvers allowed. Actually, NBL will allow a little more, but they are limited to (iirc) two aeriel maneuvers and the rest of the form (and the majority of the scoring) comes from the quality of the technique, especailly the basics. As far as the trad. divisions go, they are limited to the principles of a particular systems forms, if not the traditional kata/poomse itself. It's only in the Grands that these will ever go up against each other, so I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. None of these events are closed "traditional" tournaments, this is "sport karate" and like it or not, this is a part of this athletic sport/event. Personally, I vastly prefer full contact (and MMA)over point sparring, but I respect the fact that the point guys have their place too.

P.S.-Exile, I always preferred Pal. 7 for trad. forms as well.

 

[YoungMan]

I don't even consider XMA to be martial arts because there's nothing martial about it. Try using it to defend yourself and see what happens.

 

[clfsean]

I don't even consider XMA to be martial arts because there's nothing martial about it. Try using it to defend yourself and see what happens.

Well the base techniques are there, just like in PRC Wushu, but the players don't practice them as such. It's performance art, as opposed to fighting arts.

But in all I agree with you

 

[celtic_crippler]

I don't even consider XMA to be martial arts because there's nothing martial about it. Try using it to defend yourself and see what happens.

By that logic there would be quite a few other "martial arts" that would not qualify.

My point is that simply because you do not practice it, do not agree with the methodology, do not see the logic in it, etc....does not necessarily disqualify it as a martial art.

Put simply, if everyone agreed on focus, methodology, results, and curriculum then there'd only be one form of martial art.

You'll never see my big, old, decrepid carcass flipping around in the air like those XMA folks... and personally I prefer the more practical art forms, but I can also recognize that there are other perspectives and just because they differ from my onw does not mean that disqualifies them as martial artist.

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't even consider XMA to be martial arts because there's nothing martial about it. Try using it to defend yourself and see what happens.

How is this different from countless other "martial arts" that don't really train against much resistance, or even any resistance?

But regardless, they might surprise you. One thing about XMA is they are in very good shape, they are very fast and they are quite strong. This is more then can be said for many "martial artists."

I honestly think the biggest problem people have with XMA comes from the fact that they are often competing in the same tournaments, and lets be honest, the XMA people put on a better "show", that is what they train to do.

 

[celtic_crippler]

...also....even though I pointed it out earlier in the thread it seems necessary to point it out once more as some seem to have missed it...

Those on the XMA team actually train in a base style. If you check the site (I posted their link earlier) you'll see that many of them are ATA students and one was actually a student in Amercian Kenpo.

It's just a glorified demo team to appeal to those with the Power Ranger Mentality. It's a great marketing strategy and brings more people to the martial arts who may have never had the opportunity to benefit from martial arts otherwise.

Stop drinking your Hater-aid and give these folks some props for cryin' out loud.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know. I was checking out some of these so called extreme martial arts, and I just don't find it all that extreme. Gymnasts do much of these things and nobody calls them extreme. But worry not! I have the answer!

To remedy this, I believe that kata's while skydiving, sparring while bungie jumping, and sparring on skate boards while working the half pipe. For the truly extreme, sparring while surfing or doing kata on the roof of a Subaru WRX or Mitsubishi Evo while the car is being piloted in the Baja by an experienced rally driver.

Daniel

 

[zDom]

Stop drinking your Hater-aid and give these folks some props for cryin' out loud.

Well, I firmly believe that "flash without solid basics is trash."

I would give them props IF they took the time and showed the dedication to train a basic punch, a basic kick, a basic chamber and THEN built on that with the flashy XMA stuff.

But from I've seen they never bother — they skip over the "do it right" phase in their basics and go right after the backflips and 720 degree kicks.

I'll never fully respect a "martial artist" who doesn't care enough to do their basics correctly. My response is always "what a shame; they could have been SO good!"

That's just how I'm wired. :shrug:

 

[exile]

I don't know. I was checking out some of these so called extreme martial arts, and I just don't find it all that extreme. Gymnasts do much of these things and nobody calls them extreme. But worry not! I have the answer!

To remedy this, I believe that kata's while skydiving, sparring while bungie jumping, and sparring on skate boards while working the half pipe. For the truly extreme, sparring while surfing or doing kata on the roof of a Subaru WRX or Mitsubishi Evo while the car is being piloted in the Baja by an experienced rally driver.

Daniel

:lol:

 

[BrandonLucas]

How is this different from countless other "martial arts" that don't really train against much resistance, or even any resistance?

But regardless, they might surprise you. One thing about XMA is they are in very good shape, they are very fast and they are quite strong. This is more then can be said for many "martial artists."

I honestly think the biggest problem people have with XMA comes from the fact that they are often competing in the same tournaments, and lets be honest, the XMA people put on a better "show", that is what they train to do.

The following is the Wiki defination for "martial arts":

Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. While they may be studied for various reasons, martial arts share a single objective: to defeat one or more people physically and to defend oneself or others from physical threat. In addition, some martial arts are linked to spiritual or religious beliefs/philosophies such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism or Shinto while others have their own spiritual or non-spiritual code of honour. Many arts are also practised competitively most commonly as combat sports, but may also be in the form of dance.

It also goes on to state:

The word 'martial' derives from the name of Mars, the Roman god of war. The term 'martial arts' literally means arts of war. This term comes from 15th century Europeans who were referring to their own fighting arts that are today known as Historical European martial arts. A practitioner of martial arts is referred to as a martial artist.

Now, I realize that it is saying that martial arts can be a form of dance, but for a martial art to actually be martial, then the particular art is designed for combat.

The ancient martial arts were designed for practical combat. I don't know all the history behind all of the martial arts, but I can tell you that they did not involve the jumping in the air and performing a 540 jump spinning bicycle Liu Kang kick.

Whether they compete in tournements or not, I still do not and will not consider XMA a martial art. To me, it doesn't matter whether a person has a traditional background or not. Turning ridiculous flips with shiny, flimsy, Wal-Mart halloween-aisle style weapons is not an acurate representation of any martial art.

XMA should be changed to XPA, or Xtreme Performance Arts.

 

[Sylo]

I don't even consider XMA to be martial arts because there's nothing martial about it. Try using it to defend yourself and see what happens.

This pretty much sums it up.

Xtreme Performance Art is what it should be called.

not a thing martial about it.

its athletic. Its pretty, and you have to be in shape to do it.. but would you defend yourself with it? NO..


Its "based" on movie martial arts more than traditional martial arts. You are more or less learning how to be a hollywood stuntman.