Why Hwarang Do is not Hapkido

[miguksaram]

what i meant by hrd being more martial is that the follow ups in techniques are more advanced and are more harmful to your attacker than what i have learned from hkd which seems more sport like...dont get me wrong they are great martial training hrd seems so much deeper ...... i.m.h.o................

Well all I can say is since I don't know where you took your HKD, I can't really comment on this as most of the HKD that I have been exposed to have had follow up moves as well which, applied the right way, can be deadly to the attacker as well. Again, I have to stress that what you do in HRD is HKD with flare.

 

[howard]

...most of the HKD that I have been exposed to have had follow up moves as well...

miguksaram is correct.

ancient warrior, there is no sport/competition in traditional Hapkido. I know that some people are doing competitions these days and calling it Hapkido, but Choi's original art was purely one of self defense.

You remove the essence of Choi's original techniques when you adapt them to a sport environment. That is simply not what they were ever intended for.

Some of Hapkido's finishing techniques mimic the todome strike found in Hapkido's Aikijujutsu source art. The todome strike in Jujutsu, in turn, mimics a finishing technique done with the knife (tanto), frequently to the throat.

That's pretty far removed from sport.

 

[mystic warrior]

Well all I can say is since I don't know where you took your HKD, I can't really comment on this as most of the HKD that I have been exposed to have had follow up moves as well which, applied the right way, can be deadly to the attacker as well. Again, I have to stress that what you do in HRD is HKD with flare.

Sorry dude you are wrong.
I have trainned in both arts myself as well.
And before you start asking it was I.H.F. style.
But let me ask you have you trainned in the art of Hwa Rang Do.
Or do you just watch youtube to get your answers. I am not bashing you.
Just trying to understand where you are coming from. Ya see most people who have some thing to say about one art or another have never trainned in the art. Or they have had very little training to speak off. And then want to talk ****! about it.
I am sure your style has its cool points as well does mine.
It may also have it bad as well as mine. But I will say this. And its not just the people that train in korean arts. Not I am not just aiming at you all as well as my self. But we all need to get over ourselves. And they petty kind of thing that goes on forums such as this is the reason that higher ranked people in arts will not come on to foums. I know I have spoke to a few high rankers and that is the reason. They feel that it run by low ranked black belts and wanna be bruce lees. Who have nothing to really offer but running off at the mouth about things they do not understand.
I really don't see forums getting much better if we keep posting stuff like this. Who really cares at the end of the day if HRD is Hapkido or not.
Is your life really that effected to find out the answer to that.
If so you may need some help.
But I know that this post will be blown off. Because there will be some one else who will want to whine about what DJN JBL did or didn't say or do.
When you should be just training.
Just a thought.
Well back to training.

 

[miguksaram]

Sorry dude you are wrong.
I have trainned in both arts myself as well.
And before you start asking it was I.H.F. style.
But let me ask you have you trainned in the art of Hwa Rang Do.

Well as entertaining as YouTube is, no, that is not where I do my research. I have trained, off and on, with GM DeAlba of the Modern Farang Mu Sul group, for a couple of years. I am in no way shape or form saying that I am even an advance level of the art. GM DeAlba, for the record, trained under JSL and eventually JBL until he left, or got kicked out depending on which side you choose to believe, personally, I subscribe to the "he left" camp. I have done research in the art itself and again, it traces itself back to HKD.

Ya see most people who have some thing to say about one art or another have never trainned in the art. Or they have had very little training to speak off. And then want to talk ****! about it.
I am sure your style has its cool points as well does mine.

I agree. That seems to be the trend of it now and days. Now, again, I must reiterate that I am not in anyway shape or form saying the HRD is a crap art. To say that would be bashing my own instructor GM DeAlba. HRD, is a very effective art. What I am questioning is the historical "facts" it uses that justify its origins. Does the origin of the art make it any less or any more effective? No. It makes for some really cool movie content and fantasy kung fu movie material, but it does not have any overall effect on the art's effectiveness.

And they petty kind of thing that goes on forums such as this is the reason that higher ranked people in arts will not come on to foums. I know I have spoke to a few high rankers and that is the reason. They feel that it run by low ranked black belts and wanna be bruce lees. Who have nothing to really offer but running off at the mouth about things they do not understand.

There are many forums which high ranking people will get involved in and enjoy discussions. It is a personal choice of the instructor. Perhaps some of them should get involved more to help educate. This is a new world and forums are considered a mainstream avenue of getting information and news on the arts.

I really don't see forums getting much better if we keep posting stuff like this. Who really cares at the end of the day if HRD is Hapkido or not.

I disagree. Discussions like this are very healthy when done in a mature and respectful way. It gives people the chance to learn more than just physical applications of an art. Some even go out and start researching and bettering their own knowledge or kill preconceived notions of what they previously believed. As I stated above it doesn't effect the physical aspect of the art, but it does give you insight on other parts.

Is your life really that effected to find out the answer to that. If so you may need some help.

Why? Because I choose to seek out more than what is spoon fed to me? Actually it does effect my life, because I learn something new about the martial arts regardless if I am right or wrong, I learn.

So my question is this, what if hypothetically, JBL was lying? What if he never learned anything from the Dosa? What if all his training was nothing more than HKD mixed with some kungfu and he needed to tell this eloborate story to attract more people. How would you feel about that? Can you trust someone who lies to you about their background and training?

 

[mystic warrior]

For me I do not care if is or it is not a hapkido off shoot. What matters is the training. And what the art stands for, even if the founder is not up to the standards he sets for the rest of his students.
Truth be told I think the person you may want have the talks with is not us. But Dr. JBL himself other wise no one really knows what happened back then. Except the people that were there and even that is kind of up in the air. Because when you look at it. You have one persons side and the other persons side. And then there is the truth. Now I am not calling either Dr. JBL or Mr. Dealba a lier. But you have only heard one side of the story as well as myself. But you can not really have a full understand untill you have both sides of the story. And then make up your own mind on your own.
Other wise you are just telling us what he believes and not the truth.
However the same could be said for me as well.
But I do not claim to know both men that well. And I am sure it is above both of our pay grade. As far as the info that is really non of our buisness.

 

[miguksaram]

Sorry dude you are wrong.

BTW...Forgot to ask you how you know if I am right or wrong when you have never studied with the same teachers of HKD that I have trained with?

 

[miguksaram]

For me I do not care if is or it is not a hapkido off shoot.

Then why bother even posting in this thread if you don't care?

What matters is the training. And what the art stands for, even if the founder is not up to the standards he sets for the rest of his students.

I can almost agree with you up to the last statement. How can you learn an art from someone who will not even live up to their own standards? Why would you subscribe to any training that the instructor will not subscribe to?

Truth be told I think the person you may want have the talks with is not us. But Dr. JBL himself other wise no one really knows what happened back then. Except the people that were there and even that is kind of up in the air. Because when you look at it. You have one persons side and the other persons side. And then there is the truth. Now I am not calling either Dr. JBL or Mr. Dealba a lier. But you have only heard one side of the story as well as myself. But you can not really have a full understand untill you have both sides of the story. And then make up your own mind on your own.

Well the problem is first it isn't just one incident, there are several people who fell to the wrath of WHRDA over money issues (which is the heart of it all). The sad part was GM DeAlba always gave him praise and never said a unkind word about JBL even when they were putting him through all the crap that they have been.

I digress as this isn't about Lee vs DeAlba, this is about HRD being or not being HKD.

And I am sure it is above both of our pay grade. As far as the info that is really non of our buisness.

Not to dive into the political part of this, but it is our business when it does in the long run could have an impact on the art itself, but again, topic for another thread.

 

[lulflo]

Hello.

In response to the name of the thread. Hwa Rang Do is not Hapkido because the curriculum is different, for a start.

I would say that would be the easiest way to separate the two, but in saying that, I could also say that my HRD is different from your HRD. Hopefully all of the material is in there, but it could be in a different order or in a different rank. I know that just in my training, I have been given material that was taught to my teacher in one belt that was given to another of my teachers in a different belt ranking. I know that there was at least one additional belt ranking added at one time so some of the material has shifted as well.

So maybe my first response is now out the window?

I can not comment on HKD because I have never studied it, I have seen others perform and there are some very similar locks and kicking and striking, but I have also seen those strikes in TKD and some in Kenpo? Mostly I notice a difference in approaches and in the teaching. I guess the discussion of the similarities between HRD/HKD is because of the roots...which is certainly valid, but HRD was a system that was made as a curriculum to learn based on the information that was available to the creator of this art. I am very impressed and while I, like anyone, can see gaps/similarities etc. I haven't seen anyone that does the exact same thing as HRD yet.

The most important thing I have found is that when I looked for a teacher, it was because I felt like I could learn from him. I didn't know anything about the art, but I did learn how to do things I couldn't do before and I guess HRD was my way, maybe HKD could have been, but I wouldn't know now.

Hoping we all find our way,

Farang - Larry

 

[miguksaram]

Hello.

In response to the name of the thread. Hwa Rang Do is not Hapkido because the curriculum is different, for a start.

Yes, there is not doubt that the curriculum is different. I believe the overall point is the core of the art is being called into question.

Let me use this as an example. I have rank in taekwondo and kempo, I also have knowledge in kung fu. I break off from my Grandmaster for whatever reason, good or bad. I then implement just my kempo hand striking techniques along with the kung fu forms but the core of the art is still taekwondo. I now call this art Taekempfu and proclaim it to be a seperate art. Do I have the right to claim that it is has no connections to taekwondo or that it is not a taekwondo system?

Look at arts such as Kajukembo. It is indeed a seperate art with its seperate curriculum, but it does not proclaim to have no connections to it core arts, which is what HRD seems to do. Nor does it make unfounded claims about its origins.

I can not comment on HKD because I have never studied it

According to my argument you have. You have just not studied the same curriculum of HKD that I have.

The most important thing I have found is that when I looked for a teacher, it was because I felt like I could learn from him.

Which, again, I want to reiterate that I am not calling any of the Lee's skills in question. To do so would be to call my own instructor's skills into question becasue he trained under them. In fact he just re-enforces my point. His core background is in KSW and HRD amongst other things. Yet what he has done is evolved the art into something very different than what is taught in HRD, from my understanding. He has changed the name, for legal reasons, but still maintains its roots.

Farang - Larry

As in Farang Mu Sul? We may have more in common than you think.

 

[shesulsa]

I think most HRD and non-WHRDA HRD folk say/type "farang" as a generic salutation ... kinda like some other folks here use "aloha."

A few things continue to bother me in the whole lineage argument - with any art, really.

As I understand it and as it has been explained to me by some Koreans I've spoken to:

First, The whole cultural aspect of filial piety runs SO DEEP in the Korean culture that if your father told you to never tell anyone about a family secret or to perpetuate a complete fabrication regarding your family, you would absolutely die without telling another soul the secret or in the effort of broadcasting the lie. That aspect alone speaks volumes as to the insistence by anybody of anything.

Second, entire empires were completely destroyed and wiped from written existence by newer regimes all over Asia for ... uh ... ever. Not finding written proof doesn't automatically dismiss by default, it only means it can't be proven. This is a KEY point in all arguments on things that "don't exist." I've been told there is a spot where Suahm Dosa supposedly lived and where the Lees trained. I can't remember if I was told it's a small pile of rubble or if it's marked in some way - but indeed, no record of anyone living there. Well. If you had access to information you didn't want known and wanted to stay hidden, don't you think you could find a way to make that happen? No title deeds? No tax records?

Yes, I know what scholars and academia says, but the point is that the possibility exists regardless of the probability. Pages and pages of arguments can't dismiss that something with no record didn't exist unless it did exist as something else verifiable.

Of course, it's extremely difficult to observe hapkido, aikido, shotokan, etcetera and not see the more-than-just-similarities between those arts and our very own.

As scientific Westerners, it's extremely difficult to bow to filial piety such that we will perpetuate ... ah ... stories that may be tweaked a little, to put it very, very respectfully. As to putting an assembly of good stuff together and calling it your own - do you have the "right" to do that? Why not? People have been doing that for a very, very long time.

Now ...

As I've said before, Hwa Rang Do is a great style and I'm just not going to beat a dead horse, especially since I can't know all the facts as I was not there. I've read some very convincing arguments as to certain facets of the HRD controversy but ya know folks? It's all politics.

I hate politics. :asian:

To repeatedly bash a Korean man for creating a great style and then being Korean about it? Well ... that's not an argument I really want to get into. DJN put together a great style. I wish my body and talent could be worthy of it. But I do also wish we could have a bit more honesty in ALL martial arts.

Farang,

JKNK

 

[miguksaram]

I think most HRD and non-WHRDA HRD folk say/type "farang" as a generic salutation ... kinda like some other folks here use "aloha."

Ironic isn't it that they Farang yet there is no 'F' letter or word in the Korean language. I would love to see the kanji for this word. I asked my wife about Farang and she said it must be something they made up for the art or mispronounced from some other word. The closest to the word she could think of is baran which means blue. Now onto more interesting items.

First, The whole cultural aspect of filial piety runs SO DEEP in the Korean culture that if your father told you to never tell anyone about a family secret or to perpetuate a complete fabrication regarding your family, you would absolutely die without telling another soul the secret or in the effort of broadcasting the lie. That aspect alone speaks volumes as to the insistence by anybody of anything.

That can be said for almost any culture. How many European aristocrats had dirty laundry which was never aired?

Second, entire empires were completely destroyed and wiped from written existence by newer regimes all over Asia for ... uh ... ever. Not finding written proof doesn't automatically dismiss by default, it only means it can't be proven.

Well true and false. Korea has a very distinct history and lineage which can be traced, back to the original inhabiting of the land itself. So with that in mind you can sort of sift through what is fact and what is fiction in some martial art history.

This is a KEY point in all arguments on things that "don't exist." I've been told there is a spot where Suahm Dosa supposedly lived and where the Lees trained. I can't remember if I was told it's a small pile of rubble or if it's marked in some way - but indeed, no record of anyone living there. Well. If you had access to information you didn't want known and wanted to stay hidden, don't you think you could find a way to make that happen? No title deeds? No tax records?

Yet, they would expose all other information EXCEPT where they trained? That alone doesn't make any sense. I will teach you what I learned, who I learned it from when I learned it, but I will never reveal where I learned it. Sorry but this just throws up a red flag in my mind. Plus another thing to remember is that Asian culture, especially Korean and Japanese are very adamant about documentation of existence. So unless the Suahm Dosa belong to a cult, there should be records about him being a monk somewhere. It is also traditional to keep a picture of your instructor and even have pictures of you with your instructor. Where are photos of Dosa? They have pictures with their HKD instructor.

To repeatedly bash a Korean man for creating a great style and then being Korean about it? Well ... that's not an argument I really want to get into. DJN put together a great style. I wish my body and talent could be worthy of it. But I do also wish we could have a bit more honesty in ALL martial arts.

I agree to a point. The style as it was taught by JSL is great, so why not just take credit for. What is so wrong in saying "I learned HKD from DJN Ji Han-jae and DJN Choi, Young-sool. I also learned from this guy and that guy. I then worked my butt off to put together a system that I felt was more complete than what I was being taught. I named it Hwarangdo in honor of Korea's elite society of young men." However, they seem to be taking a more romantic approach to the origin of the art. If found to be wrong it is not a case of them tweeking it a bit, it is pretty much just lying to sell it. It has nothing to do with being Korean about it.

Now I would be very interested to know if tell their Korean schools the same origin story.

 

[zDom]

I agree to a point. The style as it was taught by JSL is great, so why not just take credit for. What is so wrong in saying "I learned HKD from DJN Ji Han-jae and DJN Choi, Young-sool. I also learned from this guy and that guy. I then worked my butt off to put together a system that I felt was more complete than what I was being taught. I named it Hwarangdo in honor of Korea's elite society of young men." However, they seem to be taking a more romantic approach to the origin of the art. If found to be wrong it is not a case of them tweeking it a bit, it is pretty much just lying to sell it. It has nothing to do with being Korean about it.

(My bold)

I have OFTEN wondered about that myself.

He isn't the only one, fwiw. It seems that MANY of the Korean GMs seem to think it diminishes THEIR story if they give credit where credit is due.



For example, there is a VERY WELL KNOWN GM that founded his own style after studying hapkido who omits ALL mention that

he actually learned his first hapkido techniques from Lee H. Park

I won't stir up a big poopstorm by mentioning who exactly it is, so don't bother asking.

But it is sad.