What Is Reality Based Self-Defense?

[K-man]

I was talking about Kevin O'Hagen. He has done a lot of stuff with Geoff Thompson and I call Geoff's material RBSD. Kevin calls his 'Urban Combatives'. I think that is probably a fair call and it's probably along the lines of what many of us think of when the term RBSD is used. As I said earlier, I believe there is a big overlap when we are talking about Combatives, RBSD, Def Tacs and even TMAs.

 

[drop bear]

Well I, for one will not be relying on it in a tight situation. You have posted two videos on it. The first was more a strike and follow through than a choke and the second was the situation when a guy in a position of authority was restraining a much smaller guy, and FWIW, not choking him.

As to thinking you are about to die, sure if it's properly on. If the trachea is not being crushed that won't happen. If it is, it is likely you will die. Therefore it is a stupid thing to do, the actual choke part, unless you intend to kill the person. It's a bit like pointing a gun at someone's head. If you are not going to pull the trigger it is a bluff. By the time you have actually done the choke or pulled the trigger chances are you have killed him.

So a grab to the throat, threatening? Sure. Momentary freeze? Sure. Paralysis, no way with a trained person. And that's without taking into account the time taken to get that sort of grip. The defence is literally a fraction of a second. It's black and white. The only chance of it succeeding is if you are quick enough and good enough to crush the trachea. If that is your intent then it is black and white in terms of self defence. Unless your life was under threat it could not be construed as justifiable force.

You have a bunch of misconceptions about that style of choke.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So a grab to the throat, threatening? Sure. Momentary freeze? Sure. Paralysis, no way with a trained person. And that's without taking into account the time taken to get that sort of grip..

If there is one thing that annoys me about some RBSD people its that they sometimes seem to want people to believe that even a traditional martial artist with decades of training and experience will just fall completely to pieces and forget every thing the know and be completely useless as soon as someone in the street attacked them for real. Which is a load of rubbish.

 

[K-man]

You have a bunch of misconceptions about that style of choke.

Sure. I know nothing. What a waste of 30+ years. What a shame. I should have started MMA back then.

In light of your attitude, I won't be bothered replying to any more of your posts as obviously I have nothing to add to your understanding. Perhaps you are doing the same with my posts as with ballen's. Well I don't need the angst.

 

[K-man]

If there is one thing that annoys me about some RBSD people its that they sometimes seem to want people to believe that even a traditional martial artist with decades of training and experience will just fall completely to pieces and forget every thing the know and be completely useless as soon as someone in the street attacked them for real. Which is a load of rubbish.

What annoys me even more is when someone with no training outside of MMA and some kiddie karate says the same. I haven't seen anyone with a RBSD background having a go at TMA. All the derogatory comments have come from people with no experience in either.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I haven't seen anyone with a RBSD background having a go at TMA.

Well there's this guy:

Why Most Martial Arts Don t Work FunctionalSelfDefense.org

 

[drop bear]

Sure. I know nothing. What a waste of 30+ years. What a shame. I should have started MMA back then.

In light of your attitude, I won't be bothered replying to any more of your posts as obviously I have nothing to add to your understanding. Perhaps you are doing the same with my posts as with ballen's. Well I don't need the angst.

there should have been. MMA back then. Especially for the advancement of rbsd. I mean I looked for a simple system that combined punching kicking grappling and ground work. But it just wasn't packaged. Add a dog brothers style weapons system and you would pretty much be golden.

Even the gloves where you can test full contact grappling and striking and the matted cage where you can bang people off walls is just such a step forwards.

Take that. Add pre fight, post fight ,multiples anything. And suddenly your rbsd methods have the best of both worlds.

But that is a different topic.

 

[drop bear]

What annoys me even more is when someone with no training outside of MMA and some kiddie karate says the same. I haven't seen anyone with a RBSD background having a go at TMA. All the derogatory comments have come from people with no experience in either.

It is the no rules argument generally. You know a black belt who has trained to fight without shoes and stuff gets on the streets and gets manhandled by a junky because he couldn't convert his traditional methods.

it was a big selling point for rbsd back in the day. I should be able to find some links.

 

[K-man]

Well there's this guy:

Why Most Martial Arts Don t Work FunctionalSelfDefense.org

Who Is David Erath?

David was born and raised in New Orleans. He ran a self defense school there full time for 10 years, until 2007. Due at least partly to the environment he was raised in, he's been obsessed with self defense and martial arts from an early age. As a child he made homemade pepper spray (a mixture of gasoline and Raid...roach spray...in a bottle attached to his bike) to defend against the ever present bike robbers in his neighborhood. As an adult he lived across the street from drug dealers, and witnessed numerous shootings from distances closer than he would have liked. David has black belts in a couple of styles, but generally dislikes the idea of rank and formality. He's studied lots of martial arts, but because he felt none of them sufficiently and comprehensively dealt with self defense, he created FSD.

Yeah but is he RBSD? Sounds like a bit of a try hard to me. Most people that go into a more SD field still list their prior MAs as credentials. This guy looks as if he didn't do much anywhere. I'm always wary of people who rely on bagging others to promote themselves.

 

[drop bear]

Who is that jim Wagner guy?
is he really representative of rbsd? Pointing out the flaws in tma,s

Jim Wagner Reality-Based Personal Protection

They pretty much all do it. Part of the sales pitch.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah but is he RBSD? Sounds like a bit of a try hard to me. Most people that go into a more SD field still list their prior MAs as credentials. This guy looks as if he didn't do much anywhere. I'm always wary of people who rely on bagging others to promote themselves.

That was my assessment of him as well.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It is the no rules argument generally. You know a black belt who has trained to fight without shoes and stuff gets on the streets and gets manhandled by a junky because he couldn't convert his traditional methods.

it was a big selling point for rbsd back in the day. I should be able to find some links.

Why many TMAs train in bare feet could be another entire thread. Don't most MMA and BJJ guys train without shoes? Wouldn't they have the same trouble with the same junky? You see the flaw in your logic do you?

 

[drop bear]

Why many TMAs train in bare feet could be another entire thread. Don't most MMA and BJJ guys train without shoes? Wouldn't they have the same trouble with the same junky? You see the flaw in your logic do you?

yes the logic is flawed.

it relies on this idea that we are robots that cannot adapt a concept to a unique environment. If i kick a tennis ball I cant kick a soccer ball. To a certain very fine tolerance this is sort of true but then breaks down. Almost at the same level.

(by the way kicking a tennis ball was a drill we used when i played soccer. It was supposed to develop fine motor skills)

 

[Tez3]

For those who don't recognise the name, Kevin is a little guy with vast experience across many fields including MMA.

Kevin O'Hagan is a brilliant instructor, another one who if you ever get a chance to train with him grab it. He really does know what he's talking about.
As for all that stuff about TMA people not knowing anything about defending etc etc it's just another load of codswallop to sell their own classes.

 

[MJS]

Jim wagners take on the thing.

"Reality-based systems are those systems that teach the fundamental self-defense techniques that are found in both the traditional-based and sport-based systems, but go a step further by training specifically for modern conflict situations, and eliminating outdated techniques and training methods. Although there are many systems today calling themselves “reality-based,” because they see themselves as training more realistically and have abandoned nonessential customs and traditions, few of them are actually “complete reality-based” systems. In other words, they lack Pre-Conflict and Post-Conflict training in their curriculums and their Conflict training may be lacking simply because they have no real-world experience with criminals, abnormals, or terrorism."

Well, thanks for posting this. This was the point I was trying to get across, although my choice of words, could have been better. As for the pre/post conflict training...yup, this is something I've said myself, many times.

 

[MJS]

If there is one thing that annoys me about some RBSD people its that they sometimes seem to want people to believe that even a traditional martial artist with decades of training and experience will just fall completely to pieces and forget every thing the know and be completely useless as soon as someone in the street attacked them for real. Which is a load of rubbish.

Couldn't agree more!

What annoys me even more is when someone with no training outside of MMA and some kiddie karate says the same. I haven't seen anyone with a RBSD background having a go at TMA. All the derogatory comments have come from people with no experience in either.

Very true. I stand by what I've said before: it's not necessarily what you train in, but how you train it.

 

[MJS]

yes the logic is flawed.

it relies on this idea that we are robots that cannot adapt a concept to a unique environment. If i kick a tennis ball I cant kick a soccer ball. To a certain very fine tolerance this is sort of true but then breaks down. Almost at the same level.

(by the way kicking a tennis ball was a drill we used when i played soccer. It was supposed to develop fine motor skills)

Actually, I'm not following your logic on this. TMA's can't fight outside the dojo, supposedly because they train without shoes, yet every BJJ school that I've seen, also trains barefoot. As I've said countless times....it all comes down to HOW one trains. Sure, I could train in a gi, barefoot, 4 times a week, in a BJJ gym, yet I can also train no gi, in my backyard on the grass. The TMA guy could train in a realistic fashion, just like the BJJ guy.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

hammers gym in Victoria did self defence. That was primarily kickboxing but did sd with pre fight.

zen do kai used to do it.

What sort of training did they do for the pre-fight? What did you learn from it? I've seen schools like that occasionally do a little play acting skit before practicing physical techniques, but it wasn't actually training anything meaningful.

so what percentage of rbsd needs to be,I don't know self defence concept?,
(don't display wealth, don't be a drunk idiot. That sort of thing)

Before it is considered rbsd?

Well, if it's just reading off of checklist of pointers (don't display wealth, don't be a drunk idiot, don't date violent assholes, etc), then it's not really training, is it?

Think of it like sparring, which we are both a fan of. If you never get your butt kicked, then you probably aren't learning too much from your sparring, right? To my mind, the pre and post fight scenarios should have just as much pressure and opportunity to screw up under pressure as you encounter in sparring.

As far as percentages, I'm not sure what different teachers go for. If I were looking into RBSD training, I'd want something that was at least 50% focused on pre and post fight. The bit I've had before was 99% pre and post fight.

Sure. Momentary freeze? Sure. Paralysis, no way with a trained person.

I think drop bear was talking about using the throat grab in a context of settling down a belligerent drunk bar patron. I'm guessing he didn't have too many instances where he was using it on a highly trained martial artist.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Why many TMAs train in bare feet could be another entire thread. Don't most MMA and BJJ guys train without shoes? Wouldn't they have the same trouble with the same junky? You see the flaw in your logic do you?

Actually, I'm not following your logic on this. TMA's can't fight outside the dojo, supposedly because they train without shoes, yet every BJJ school that I've seen, also trains barefoot. As I've said countless times....it all comes down to HOW one trains. Sure, I could train in a gi, barefoot, 4 times a week, in a BJJ gym, yet I can also train no gi, in my backyard on the grass. The TMA guy could train in a realistic fashion, just like the BJJ guy.

You guys are misunderstanding drop bear's point entirely. He is not at all claiming that TMA practitioners are unable to defend themselves because they practice indoors without shoes and so on. He is saying that some RBSD practitioners have made that claim and that he thinks the claim is complete rubbish.

(Drop bear - if you could spend a little time adding actual punctuation to your posts it might reduce this sort of confusion. This isn't the first time people have thought you were making a point that you were actually arguing against.)

 

[Steve]

What I mean when I use such terms as DefTacs, RBSD etc is the accurate definition of those terms. It really doesn't matter if such a definition isn't "universally accepted"… evolution isn't "universally accepted", that doesn't really have bearing on what's accurate or correct. The attempt to placate by allowing a definition to be stretched to accommodate whatever anyone wants to define something as is firstly inaccurate, secondly redundant, and thirdly a damn insult to anyone interested in actually knowing what the thing is in the first place.

In other words, I really couldn't care less if people agree or not. The definitions I presented are the accurate definitions. If you disagree, you'd better either have a better definition with more understanding of the topic than myself, or I suggest you accept that I know what I'm talking about, and choose to improve your own understanding by virtue of the information I'm providing.

I think this causes a lot of unnecessary confusion. From what you wrote, your definitions seem reasonable, and surely it helps other people understand what you mean when you use the terms.

But you seem to believe that you are sharing the only true and correct definition. Labels such as these are so abstract that there is plenty of room for interpretation. You are not sharing THE correct definition; rather, you are sharing ONE correct definition. If the definition of RBSD were as concrete as you would have us believe, this thread would be two posts long. As would the several threads attempting to define TMA.