OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[drop bear]

You made this statement.



You were asked to clarify. You posted this video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=py8zOCnw2Ew

I watched the video. I didn't see any de-escalation at all. Do you know what de-escalation means?

That was escalation. It clarifies my point about real emotional response. Yes I know what de escalation means.

 

[WaterGal]

That was escalation. It clarifies my point about real emotional response. Yes I know what de escalation means.

Maybe I shouldn't jump into this, but do you have an example of de-escalation being practiced during a sparring match? That's not something I've ever seen before, except in the context of a ref/teacher/coach calming down someone that's gotten over-emotional and started taking the sparring personally. It seems like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how that would work in a competitive context.

 

[Tez3]

Hardly consider it a thug image.

Fighters during a camp get thrashed. There are some really un fun bits. There is no getting around that.

That's not what you said however, nothing to do with camp, you said it is common for the sort of guy who starts fights to come in through the door.

 

[K-man]

Yes, I've done this in class before. I've taken a portion of a kata, had the class pair up, and explore it on their own for a while, before coming back as a group, and sharing what they found. I did that, because I wanted them to think on their own. Spoon feeding them all the time, isn't helping them learn. IMO, there comes a time, when you, as a teacher, need to start prepping them to get kicked out of the nest, so to speak, and make them start finding things and figuring things out on their own.

And herin lies the gem. This is why the bunkai is so important. It is a system of fighting that works for you, not necessarily someone else. Masaji Taira is probably the number one in the world when it comes to Goju bunkai. He told us he was never taught bunkai but was told by Eiichi Miyazato to 'go and explore the kata'. Now he shares what he has discovered. He doesn't teach what he knows as the only alternative. He shows multiple techniques for the one kata move and encourages you to do what works for you.

Great post!
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Maybe I shouldn't jump into this, but do you have an example of de-escalation being practiced during a sparring match? That's not something I've ever seen before, except in the context of a ref/teacher/coach calming down someone that's gotten over-emotional and started taking the sparring personally. It seems like an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how that would work in a competitive context.

That would be exactly where. You can't really false train it unless you are drilling tactics. And the best tactics come through sales courses. There the ones who have a real vested interest in convincing people to do stuff.

Otherwise you get this which can be a bit men...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpi2XDeN3bc
By the way dismissive not submissive worked better.


But your behaviour that sets people off during training is the behaviour that kicks off fights. Don't act like an idiot and most of your de escalation is handled.

This coming from someone who does this for a living.

 

[drop bear]

That's not what you said however, nothing to do with camp, you said it is common for the sort of guy who starts fights to come in through the door.

It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.

Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.

OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.

 

[Steve]

It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.

Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.

OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.

I've said many times that, for my money, the perfect wingman in a self defense situation is a competent MMAist who isn't a jerk and has decent situational awareness. Mma is negotiable, but the last two are not.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Tez3]

It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.

Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.

OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.

The type who are always getting into fights think they are good enough and don't have to have martial arts lol, that's the problem with them. If you get people who want to start fights in to train and you think that is normal it may explain a lot of your thinking as regards martial arts on here.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It is. Why do people learn martial arts? Self defence.

Why do they have to learn self defence? Because they are getting in to fights.

OK not everybody,and not in your club. But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.

People learn martial arts for a myriad of reason, self defense is one of them. They learn self defense to defend themselves, not because they are getting into fights. People that always get into fights have poor communication/socialization skills. A good martial artist, that trains for self defense, knows how to avoid most fights and only defend themselves when all non-force options have failed.

 

[Tez3]

People learn martial arts for a myriad of reason, self defense is one of them. They learn self defense to defend themselves, not because they are getting into fights. People that always get into fights have poor communication/socialization skills. A good martial artist, that trains for self defense, knows how to avoid most fights and only defend themselves when all non-force options have failed.

I think if you are getting people into a gym that say they are learning martial arts to learn to defend themselves because they are always getting into fights they may well be dissembling, they enjoy the fighting and actually rather than defend themselves want to be able to fight more 'efficiently' , they don't want to stop and that I think may have an impact on the attitude of the other training in that gym. It becomes much more focussed on things other than just martial arts for defence, rather it becomes that much more 'macho'.

 

[Buka]

But we get quite a few people who think they need to learn fighting when what they need are social skills.

Although I'm taking that statement out of context to the entire discussion - that's brilliant.

 

[drop bear]

The type who are always getting into fights think they are good enough and don't have to have martial arts lol, that's the problem with them. If you get people who want to start fights in to train and you think that is normal it may explain a lot of your thinking as regards martial arts on here.

We are not that judgemental regarding who we get in I suppose. Everybody has their baggage.

 

[drop bear]

Although I'm taking that statement out of context to the entire discussion - that's brilliant.

Honestly I think you are the only person taking that statement in context.

 

[Tez3]

We are not that judgemental regarding who we get in I suppose. Everybody has their baggage.

It's not a case of being judgemental but a case of who you have as students influencing your training. I imagine women students would find a macho, in it for the 'street' fighting atmosphere very off putting. It can alter how and what you teach as well. The mentality of those who want to train so they can fight better outside competition is going to be very different from those who want to fighting within it. It will influence what techniques you teach and what defences you teach, it certainly won't include kata and Bunkai for instance, sparring will be mini wars. It is a practical consideration.

 

[drop bear]

It's not a case of being judgemental but a case of who you have as students influencing your training. I imagine women students would find a macho, in it for the 'street' fighting atmosphere very off putting. It can alter how and what you teach as well. The mentality of those who want to train so they can fight better outside competition is going to be very different from those who want to fighting within it. It will influence what techniques you teach and what defences you teach, it certainly won't include kata and Bunkai for instance, sparring will be mini wars. It is a practical consideration.

I don't think you can get too worked up about people doing martial arts for the wrong reasons. Most people do martial arts for the wrong reasons at first.

The best you can do is steer them in the right direction once they get there. Mostly we try to help people not condemn them.

Otherwise our gym is a fight gym in a very confronting sport. It is not for everybody and does not pretend to be.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think you can get too worked up about people doing martial arts for the wrong reasons. Most people do martial arts for the wrong reasons at first.

The best you can do is steer them in the right direction once they get there. Mostly we try to help people not condemn them.

Otherwise our gym is a fight gym in a very confronting sport. It is not for everybody and does not pretend to be.

You have missed my point, it's not about whether martial arts are done for the right or wrong reasons, nor trying to steer them one way or another. It's about the training in the club, that depends on the focus of those wanting to train. Training for a competition is different from training for self defence, if they are coming to train for non competitive fights 'outside' they aren't going to want to train points sparring, it's about training methods nothing to do with morality. It also colours how you see kata, sparring etc so perhaps you don't understand the uses of kata etc.
I'm not sure you understand what an MMA gym is either, despite what people think MMA is not a 'confronting' sport, it is a sport that demands professional training, focused on fitness and techniques, tactics and cage control, there's no time to mess around with those who merely want to come to appear 'tuff'. The idea is to train those that want to be MMA fighters, not thugs, brawls shouldn't break out. The atmosphere in gyms I've been in has been professional and hard working with respectful students and knowledgeable coaches, brawlers would go somewhere else.
This is how they should look, one of the best here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSeVBAc4kYo#t=22

 

[drop bear]

You have missed my point, it's not about whether martial arts are done for the right or wrong reasons, nor trying to steer them one way or another. It's about the training in the club, that depends on the focus of those wanting to train. Training for a competition is different from training for self defence, if they are coming to train for non competitive fights 'outside' they aren't going to want to train points sparring, it's about training methods nothing to do with morality. It also colours how you see kata, sparring etc so perhaps you don't understand the uses of kata etc.
I'm not sure you understand what an MMA gym is either, despite what people think MMA is not a 'confronting' sport, it is a sport that demands professional training, focused on fitness and techniques, tactics and cage control, there's no time to mess around with those who merely want to come to appear 'tuff'. The idea is to train those that want to be MMA fighters, not thugs, brawls shouldn't break out. The atmosphere in gyms I've been in has been professional and hard working with respectful students and knowledgeable coaches, brawlers would go somewhere else.
This is how they should look, one of the best here. Tour of Next Generation MMA Liverpool - YouTube

Training for self defence is training for non competitive fights out side the ring. That is the training for defence sales pitch. With the no rules the weapons and the illegal moves. Why the constant harp about the street if people are avoiding fights? There wouldn't be all this is my martial art street ready? Nonsense there would just be train because it will make you better through hard work.

It has a lot to do with morality. And developing a reasonable head on your shoulders under stress. Not about constantly condemning people. You gym sounds mean and non inclusive. At some point you have to accept people as they are to a point.

and training kata does not guarantee you will not be a duchebag.

Of course MMA is confronting. It is a full contact sport. At some point someone is going to punch you hard in the face. At some point you will be tired or angry or hungry or scared. And yet these are things you have to train yourself to deal with to be a better person. Training is good for you but training past your comfort zone is what makes a fighter.

Why do you think people want to fight MMA? There is no money in it. It is not as cool as football. And drinking at the pub is easier. Some people like to fight.

Now connecting that to a person who likes to prey on people in street fights is increadably judgemental. You may as well suggest all MMA is thuggery and that is not the case. People are complicated. And have all sorts of nuanced motivations. Seriously you need to give them more of a break.

That gym seems nice by the way.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Training for self defence is training for non competitive fights out side the ring.

Fighting and self defense are two entirely different things, they only look the same to those who do not understand the difference.

That is the training for defence sales pitch. With the no rules the weapons and the illegal moves. Why the constant harp about the street if people are avoiding fights? There wouldn't be all this is my martial art street ready? Nonsense there would just be train because it will make you better through hard work.

A big part of a martial art being 'street ready' is instilling the ability to avoid having to use your skills in the first place.

It has a lot to do with morality. And developing a reasonable head on your shoulders under stress. Not about constantly condemning people. You gym sounds mean and non inclusive. At some point you have to accept people as they are to a point.

It's all very well to accept someone into your school who has a less then perfect attitude thinking you can change them but if you let them get away with too much it will do a disservice to the other students.

 

[drop bear]

Fighting and self defense are two entirely different things, they only look the same to those who do not understand the difference.

A big part of a martial art being 'street ready' is instilling the ability to avoid having to use your skills in the first place.

It's all very well to accept someone into your school who has a less then perfect attitude thinking you can change them but if you let them get away with too much it will do a disservice to the other students.

OK as a typical self defence class how much time is spent on learning to hurt people? Because I have done a few martial arts and it seems to be 90% hurting. Kata as the topic of this thread is pretty much all hurting people.

There is a term we use called ego sparring and that is frowned upon. The rule is if you want to ego spar. There is a pro fighter who will oblige you. But you don't prey on people. It is the difference between being competitive and passionate. And being a tool.

And it is a valuable life lesson most people who MMA have to be taught at least once.

The training is tough. You have to be mature to handle it. And sometimes that takes a few stumbles.

You see the people at their best and their worst.

 

[Tez3]

Training for self defence is training for non competitive fights out side the ring. That is the training for defence sales pitch. With the no rules the weapons and the illegal moves. Why the constant harp about the street if people are avoiding fights? There wouldn't be all this is my martial art street ready? Nonsense there would just be train because it will make you better through hard work.

Actually no, self defence is different from being in fights because you are looking for them.

It has a lot to do with morality. And developing a reasonable head on your shoulders under stress. Not about constantly condemning people. You gym sounds mean and non inclusive. At some point you have to accept people as they are to a point.

Right, my gym is not mean and non inclusive, you know nothing about it and have no right to say anything about it, we've never refused to take anyone by the way ( we have traveller students which no one else will), you seem to have a very weird idea of who and what we are. We are very inclusive and take people who want to learn martial arts, we train and promote fight nights.

and training kata does not guarantee you will not be a duchebag.

You have misread what I said which was if you aren't training kata because you are training something else you can't have a good understanding of it.

Of course MMA is confronting. It is a full contact sport. At some point someone is going to punch you hard in the face. At some point you will be tired or angry or hungry or scared. And yet these are things you have to train yourself to deal with to be a better person. Training is good for you but training past your comfort zone is what makes a fighter.

I think you are using the word 'confronting' in the wrong way, confrontation isn't having someone punching you in the face in an organised fight. We don't train people to be 'better' people, we train them to fight in martial arts. We don't judge our students and nor try to make them better people, we don't have to train the majority of them to deal with the other issues you mentioned, they have learnt in a far harsher way than we could ever could teach. For many of our students MMA is a relaxation.

Why do you think people want to fight MMA? There is no money in it. It is not as cool as football. And drinking at the pub is easier. Some people like to fight.

I have to laugh at you teaching your granny to suck eggs, please don't try to explain to me why people fight. How many years have you been in MMA coaching?

Now connecting that to a person who likes to prey on people in street fights is increadably judgemental. You may as well suggest all MMA is thuggery and that is not the case. People are complicated. And have all sorts of nuanced motivations. Seriously you need to give them more of a break.

I have no idea what you are talking about, certainly nothing to do with what I said

That gym seems nice by the way.

You are the one who is being judgemental, you have judged my gym without knowing anything about it, you have judged me without knowing anything about me and have misunderstood entirely what I was saying. You made it about people instead of training, you are entirely off track as to what I was saying turning it into something I wasn't meaning.
I'll put it simply, if your students are training to fight and that's what you teach them, if they don't do kata because you don't teach it how can you comment knowledgably about kata.
and while we are at it who actually said sparring was detrimental.