non-telegraph without loosing power, to what extent can training keep power?

[Kung Fu Wang]

In training yes, in self-defense no. I don't think about the safety of my attacker if I'm the one in danger. If I have the luxury to think about their safety then that would mean that I'm significantly at an advantage and can hurt my attacker but my attacker cannot hurt me. Unfortunately I'm not that good at martial arts where I can afford to think of my abilities at this level.

In all conflicts that I get in, I naturally assume that I'm at a disadvantage. It's safer for me to approach as if I'm at a disadvantage at the beginning than to assume that I'm at an advantage. The advantage is what I want to have and for me that's not something that I start with. The fact that someone wants to physically harm you, is your opponent telling you that they have an advantage over you.

I was joking. To be kind to your enemy is cruel to yourself. In a fight, you want to hurt your enemy that:

- His own mother won't be able to recognize him.
- He has to spend hours to pick up his missing teeth on the ground.
- He will need a nurse to take care of him for the rest of his life.
- He will regret that his mother ever brought him into this dangerous world.
- He will believe that death may be a better option afterward.
- He will understand why flower is so red.

Of course, I'm joking again.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In training yes, in self-defense no.

Have you ever played 100% defense in training? I have tried it in wrestling. Within 15 minutes, my opponent could not obtain any clinch on me. One of my senior Chinese wrestling brothers made a public statement that anybody could take him down just once, he would give that person a black belt. Until he passed away, nobody could take him down if he played 100% defense. In striking game, if I play 100% defense, I can have a lot of opportunity to obtain a head lock on my opponent. In other words, even if I may play 100% defense, I can still switch to offense if I want to.

 

[Fungus]

Speaking as someone who side steps. It has less to do either power and more to do with body mechanics and having a "plan B" the purpose stepping side ways is to get off centerline so you don't get hit when kicking. There are a lot of other benefits to a side step but that is the main one. Just to step off center to avoid a possible incoming strike.

Side step should be hidden by your attack. Footwork should never be done in a way that tells what attack is coming. Either your step is being done too far away from your opponent or your attack is out of sysnc with your footwork.

A sparring video illustrating your question would be more useful to giving you the answer that best fits what you are experiencing.

Sometime we don't get our self analysis correct because we can't see ourselves in 3rd person while we fight. It's possible that something else is causing your concern that has nothing to do with power.

I totally understand there are many reasons for footwork, and that power isn't all. And if less power is sufficient also wasn't my question.

My question was more specific, perhaps it's best illustrated by focusing only on ushiro geri, or the turning/spinning back kick.

(The application is typically to kick your heel, into the solar plexus of the opponent, or if the right rib side for liver impact depending on your angle.)

I am not talking about ushiro mawashi geri (spinnin hook kick or wheel kick)

the question is: how to make the TURN/SPIN while maintaining balance and not loose power or make it a ushiro mawashi hybrid. The trouble I have is that in a more square stance my center of mass is to the right of the pivoting kick, and if you move your center of mass sideways I think I have to loose energy?

Version one (which i call beginner version) and we are taught at our club this is NOT the way to do, because it's telegraphing. But the power is high.

Another video of same method

This video also lables this a "mistake" (although you can do it for a good reason, but that's a different question, not the one I ask)

Version two, meaning twisting your lead leg, but not MOVING it, supposedly we are taught the better (less telegraphing) but more advanced version. And we are told by instructors this is advanced to execute properly. Sometimes when people do this wither power, they often solve it by a less squared stance, so that the small twist of the leg is sufficient (this works reasonably) But some people do it with a more square stance, and even it can be done, I find that power is lost as your center of gravity necessarily must move during the kick, and howto do that without getting a angular momentum is a bit of a mystery to me.

My instructor told me that the various version may be used depending on circumstances, and this is clear to me. But the question is if the "advanced" version can ever be as powerful? I just want to understand if my hunch is correct, or this impression is all due to my bad technique.

 

[Fungus]

IMO, to take your opponent down and take off at the same time can be a good strategy.

Excellent if you are a good runner. But not everyone is.

Running a long way is not to my advantage, not with my back issues. I would have to stay and use all my energy to finish.

 

[Holmejr]

keeping power without telegraphing. I suppose just train to be explosive. Reaction drills are good for that. Let’s say at the sound of bell or a clap, you explode with movement. It could be a single punch or a single kick or a combination. Exhaling (kiai or boxing sss) simultaneously with the movement helps to focus energy and add power. We do some of these with our eyes closed to eliminate the thought process of accessing a target and then hitting the target. It just seems to make you looser. Use resistance bands, light weights or weighted gloves to promote strength and speed. You do have to be careful NOT to hyperextend joints. In our FMA we practice punching while holding our stick(s). The typical stick weighs about 10 ounces. Our instructor times us on how fast we do a technique, but fast sometimes translates to jerky. Smooth is fast and fast is jerky they say.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the turning/spinning back kick.

I prefer the turn spin side kick than the turn spin back kick. I can't see my target when I do a back kick. I can turn my head and see my target when I do a spin side kick. If you can't see your target, your opponent may catch your kicking leg.

 

[Fungus]

I prefer the turn spin side kick than the turn spin back kick.

That could be an interesting discussion in itself. One could even argue that trying to do the turning back kick, from a slightly more square stance, almost makes it a little bit of a turning side kick. If so, it can explain it. As I think most would say that the side kick itself is not as powerful as the back kick? I haven seen som inconsistent instructions on this, so I think in the end I guess there is a continuum of variations between these.

But I prefer the back kick as it's easier for my back, and can alos kick alot HIGHER with the back kick, than I can with side kick. And my balance is better, but it may be personal. But my feet are weird, so when I do the back kick my feet looks more like a side kick but that's due to my anatomy. I still kick with the butt.

I can't see my target when I do a back kick. I can turn my head and see my target when I do a spin side kick. If you can't see your target,

I agree it's tricky, but as you turn your head and upper body first, you can still see before you kick, but only with the peripheral vision of one eye. So they way I do it, I'd say 90% of hte aiming is done before I commit to the kick. I have a target, then if I trained the kick well I can just turn and hit that spot. But before I hit, I have chance to cancel or fine tune adjust on the fly before I turn if there is a slight movement. But I can't stop and re-aim, then you loose all the momentum.

your opponent may catch your kicking leg.

My impression is that it is harder to defend against the back kick, than side kick, as the side kick come from a higher chamber - so your opponent can jam it - the back kick comes from below and straight up to the target.

But there is a high chance to get the legt caught, but this I think the case for pretty much every kick - except low kicks, this is my low kicks are the safest at times. No one will bend over to catch a kick.

What makes the turning back kick special to me, is that it seems to be by margin the most powerful kick, and it is easier for my back.

 

[JowGaWolf]

the question is: how to make the TURN/SPIN while maintaining balance and not loose power or make it a ushiro mawashi hybrid. The trouble I have is that in a more square stance my center of mass is to the right of the pivoting kick, and if you move your center of mass sideways I think I have to loose energy?

First stop worrying about power. Get the mechanics correct. If you are losing balance then I would ask if you lose balance when you aren't trying to kick hard? Are you turning too far over because you are trying to kick hard? How much are you turning that front foot? Are you sending the kick straight through or around?

if you move your center of mass sideways I think I have to loose energy?

In terms of moving that front foot over, no.. This is a linear kick. It is similar to how I do my kung fu back kicks and side kicks, with toes pointing down. The power doesn't come from spining, it comes from a weight shift from the kicking leg to the standing leg.

The way that I learned this kick was to think of my self pretending to walk away from someone. I take a step forward and with that same foot I kick backwards. This is done without the turn and will help you to get comfortable with kicking backwards. It's the fastes way that I can think of when it comes to learning what the linear movment that you should be feeling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I prefer the turn spin side kick than the turn spin back kick. I can't see my target when I do a back kick. I can turn my head and see my target when I do a spin side kick. If you can't see your target, your opponent may catch your kicking leg.

I throw blind back kicks because I don't have the flexibility in my torso that I used to have, big stomach reduce the range of motion. So I have to lose my gut. The only upside is that I learned how to line up the kick before I kick. I'm fine as long as my opponent thinks it's a circular kick. I play around with the back kick but I prefer the side kick where my toes point downward. I don't do the Karate or TKD type side kicks. My hips have never liked that motion even as a kid.

I also don't have the flexibility that I used to have for my back kicks so now they fall around the hips thighs and knees. The only way I can get them higher is to lean forward so that my back kick is higher. I train accuracy by opening the door to my room and kicking withe narrow part of the door. If the door moves to the side then I know I have circular motion which I don't want for this type of kick. My good kicks won't come back until I loose this gut.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Have you ever played 100% defense in training?

Only in sparring classes with people who were afraid that they my hurt me when they hit me. I would tell them that they have to hit me first in order to hurt me. Eventually they forget about hurting me and focus on hitting me.

Most of my wrestling is 97% defense. When I was sparring with @Tony Dismukes I rarely attacked. I tried counters, but most of what I did was defensive. I naturally think of Wrestling Defense and counter. I'm trying to change that so I can have some offensive ability as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But the question is if the "advanced" version can ever be as powerful? I just want to understand if my hunch is correct, or this impression is all due to my bad technique.

'why would the advanced version have less power? It only becomes advance when people get really good with the basic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In this video, both his turn back kick and turn side kick are using the front leg.

Both turn back kick and turn side kick that I was talking about are kicking with the back leg.

You can see better with the front leg kick. It's the back leg kick after turning that I have the concern.

In turn

- side kick, I can spin my body and turn my head before I throw my kick.
- back kick, my head can only turn 1/2 way.

 

[Fungus]

The power doesn't come from spining, it comes from a weight shift from the kicking leg to the standing leg.

Agreed, this is how it is powerful when done 100% linear. This is how I prefer to do it, and it is solid.

Get the mechanics correct. If you are losing balance then I would ask if you lose balance when you aren't trying to kick hard? Are you turning too far over because you are trying to kick hard? How much are you turning that front foot? Are you sending the kick straight through or around?

In terms of moving that front foot over, no.. This is a linear kick.

The problem is that, yes this is supposedly a linear kick. But when starting from a squared stance, your kicking left is on the wrong side of the body. So unless you side step, it is impossible to move the foot to the target in a straight line.
So what our instructors show is to make the first part of hte turn a way to "move the foot", this is circular part required when to get the back kicking foot a free line of sight to target - THEN - the only the last part is "linear", but then you loose some acceleration distance and it seems your center of gravity may or may not shift as well, this is the part I find delicated.
So as I understand the "advanced version", the initial part contains a non-linear part, but the FINISH is linear (unlike a true spinning hook kick), which is circular all the way.

 

[Fungus]

In this video, both his turn back kick and turn side kick are using the front leg.

At the set time yes, but the video shows them all.

Both turn back kick and turn side kick that I was talking about are kicking with the back leg.

I was too, i just set the time to show that they argue that even in the case of the brue lee "side kick" there is a modification to get MORE power (as brue lee does) that makes it more like a back kick. I also prefer to do my side kicks like that even when we are suppsed not to, because the regular side kicks are hard for my back. So when I do "side kicks" I tweak them into a hybrid back kick as it's the only thinkg I can do, at least at anything higher than knee kicks.

You can see better with the front leg kick. It's the back leg kick after turning that I have the concern.

In turn

- side kick, I can spin my body and turn my head before I throw my kick.
- back kick, my head can only turn 1/2 way.

 

[HighKick]

This is a question for you more experienced.

Many kicks, such as mawashi geri, or ushiro mawashi or ushiro geri can be done in a few ways.

Some ways are "easier", some ways may give more "power", and some ways usually implying not moving your other foot alot, but just spinning on the spot, is less telegraphing, but I feel you loose power.
For example, muay thai mawashi, often side steps with the lead foot, to gaiin power power when slamming your shin into the opponent.
Also ushiro geri, you can side step (beginners method) or you can first shift balance and then turn on the spot, for less telegraph etc.

My question for say ushiro geri (turning back kick), is if you perfect your techiniques - can you make the difference in power zero, or would it, even if you master this kick very WELL that there is STILL a compromise in power?

I feel that, where I am right now as a beginner - I can perform both - but in the advanced version I loose ALOT of power but I think with perfected balance, I can add more POWER into the kick without loosing balance. But the question is - will it EVER be as powerful as the telegraphing tecnhique, or will it will it always be capped to some %power of the telegraphing technique? My hunch is that there will always be a significant difference, am I wrong?

Rotational velocity can be extremely efficient. Losses can be identified and reduced, but there will be a point of maximum efficiency.
It is easiest (for me) to study the motion as a column, and to calculate the rotational loads.
Your body and standing foot create the column. The straighter and stronger it is, the more efficient the rotation will be.
Draw a line through the center of your column. Any offset or swinging load (arms/hands, legs/feet, head) or any bend in the column (torso, knees) will reduce efficiency. Of course, it is difficult for the human body to rotate at 100% efficiency, so when a person is doing a spinning kick, any swinging load (a leg/foot in kicking position), needs to have the correct amount of offsetting counter-load, all balanced as close as possible.
In real application, practice should get the kick to a point of efficiency where any losses are so minimal, they will not matter in any measurable amount. For example, if the kick is hard enough to break a rib or jaw, that is hard enough.
It is very important to note power and velocity are kinsmen and tightly related.
I hope this makes sense to you.

 

[Holmejr]

Doesn’t it just come down to becoming efficient and proficient with the movement. In hapkido/tkd, when we initially learned the spin back kick, we would step off with the lead foot to promote or learn coiling (spring), chamber and release (kick). With practice, the kick became tighter tight and more explosive. The chambering stayed tighter to the body and the lead foot didn’t have to step off. In FMA new students tend to be very wide, almost theatrical in their movements. They feel that they need this to produce power. As they advance, they learn that with good mechanics they produce even more power with efficient movement. So, after your 1000th attempt you should start to notice some real improvement

 

[Fungus]

'why would the advanced version have less power? It only becomes advance when people get really good with the basic.

But in this video, they use a typical narrow a bit bladed sance, typical for point-karate. In that case, it looks like an ideal situation even to me. I have no problem with that video. It will be good power!

In our style we often are closer and have a more squared stance. Bladed stance are vulnerable to leg kicks and sweeps and is more in/out focused.

In our last class we were instructed to a adopt a little more squared fighting stance, where the back leg is clearly much to the side and not as narrows as that video. Then we were asked to first turn, lifting the back leg into the air, chamber it in a new position where you have light of sight with the target (so the back foot has to MOVE quote a bit). The front foot are not allowed to side step, just turn angle. Then do the back kick, and then after the kick (in kihon) land the kicking leg back in the original position.

One way would be to before the kick, change from squared stance to narrow bladed stance, but then your opponent knows your stance is chosen for kicking (like a tae-kwon-do stance), which is kicking focused. The challenge i understood from our instructors was not
- NOT adopt and "obvious" bladed stance (as it's the same to say that, I am just waiting to kick you)
- NOT side step the front foot

but still pull of a kind of turning back kick. That way your stance is not the most obvious "kicking stance", but if you still pull off a turning back from there it will be bigger a surprise, than it thrown from a narrow a stance.
It can be done, but I find it to be difficult, and when i think of it, it is more like a turning side kick... and still wonder about the power.

... I wonder if the instructors was trying to make it more complicated than necessary, to make us sweat.. the last time i asked him to show me, he secretly use a narrow stance as well... so perhaps it's the idea, and then there is no issue, maybe I just misinterpreted the challenge and gave it too much thought.

 

[Fungus]

The more I think of it, the more I think I have been trying to do the impossible. I see here that they indeed tweak the stance BEFORE throwing the kick. I was trying to not do that, and i couldnt make sense of it. Then I'd say that settles the mystery for me...

 

[Fungus]

I also realize now that this is different than a verison a brown belt instructed me (which was like a turning side kick wich an earlier chamber, not shown in the above video). The above video makes more sense.

 

[Fungus]

I have been thinking more about this, and now I get the purpose of what one may call the turning/spinning side kick, it is easier at close range, if you want to kick the liver, rathre than a back kick to the groin. You chamber before you turn, vs after you turn. I find it is also easier to perform, but one does not extent the kick properly, so i don't think of it as a kick and didn't consider it a "real kick" until I tried it myself. It is more like a push with the heel and your body behind. So I'd say the force is weak, but energy is high. It I think also easier to jam however.

I feel like I realized something that has before my eyes all the time but I tried to explain it away. I'm excited about this I intent to practice this. I'd say the main advantage of this version i didn't take seriously first, is that I think it is superior in close range. Ie. basically to throw it from a clinch without the need for extension. But this is not a pure linear kick, it seems to be a hybrid. But it's the utility of this hybrid that i didn't understand until yesterday.