The Overlooked, Neglected, Criticised Gedan Barai

[Bill Mattocks]

It's fine. If everyone backed off the moment someone disagreed with them then nobody would ever discuss anything and we'd all sit smug and comfy believing we know it all.

I'm not accusing you or anyone in particular of this, Bill, but I feel people who dump their ideas on forums but won't stand and be challenged by those who disagree, are probably only posting to stroke their ego's as opposed to sharing information and learning from others.

There's no rule saying that one motivation is better than another but I'd rather not be a part of someone else's verbal self loving.

I get it. I only recently 'came back' to MT and a couple other forums I used to frequent because I've adopted a new attitude, which is basically to stop feeding the trolls. They want act the ***, welcome to my ignore list. I can't let them suck me into their angry little worlds again. And that's my problem, not theirs, when they manage to get me into that state. I am on your side; but I just can't engage to the point of letting myself get angry anymore. Not good for my health.

 

[DaveB]

A few more thoughts about the hand on the hip, not directed to anyone in particular.

The question and assumptions about its use were I feel raised because it is a common belief that everyone fights the same way.

Indeed the MEANTIME-Is-Ultimate crowd dismiss as useless anything that doesn't look like the standard MMA fighter.

The thing is it all works if you know how to make it work. Lyoto Machida demonstrated sport Shotokan karate. I saw a kickboxer on a martial arts show consistently land a one handed cartwheel kick on a range of fighters. We all say the guy who leaped and bounced off the cage to perform a knockout flying round kick. I watched an MMA guy Judo throw the hell out of his opponent right after the commentator said Judo throws don't work in MMA...

So why are we so dogmatic about what is effective?

I can't answer that, but I do know how to make most techniques work regardless of their orthodoxy.

When I was sparring at a kung fu class I found myself playing in trapping range and unable to get through my opponents defence. So when he punched rather than parry and counter, I hopped back out of range and drawing my hand to my hip, and shot back in with a full extention karate reverse punch that knocked the wind clean out of him.

So how come he could block all the short fast blows at trapping range, but a big slow full arm reverse punch slipped right through?

It's because his mind was in trapping range as well as his body. The change in movement type threw him off. Had I pulled back into a boxing guard it wouldn't have worked because his perceptions were geared to attacks beginning in that zone.
There are other factors about the specifics of the technique and the circumstances, but that is the biggest one.

The only other thing we really have to note about using unorthodox techniques (or.any technique really), is that all of it comes down to ma-ai: the harmony of distance and timing. When I stepped back to avoid kung fu guy's punch I changed the distance which changed completely the technique list that was available to me. Assessing his response to my moving changes the list again, i.e. is he following, is he kicking, is he backing off..? But also where is he looking, where is his body.weight, is he aggressive generally or defensive?

All this affects the timing I have to slot in or set up a technique. All this is happening in your head too. The difference between a beginner and an experienced fighter is that in the experienced fighter it is a largely conscious thought process. Beginners think that it's honed/ingrained instinct because it happens too fast to be conscious.

The techniques and methods that people think don't work are the ones they have not trained long enough to find the right distance-timing-perception gap width for.

Conversely, if.you find a particular martial art difficult to fight, it's probably because their techniques have unfamiliar gap widths which makes reading and defending them harder (hence the whole wing chun vs boxing debate).

As ever the medicine for this ailment has a bad taste: keep training the thing you can't make work. Keep getting beat up by your nemesis style. Consciously analyse why it's not working instead of dismissing as useless and when you know, work out how to set it up so it will work.

You will be a much better martial artist for it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

...The difference between a beginner and an experienced fighter is that in the experienced fighter it is a largely conscious thought process. Beginners think that it's honed/ingrained instinct because it happens too fast to be conscious.

Yes, but it can also become ingrained. 'Mushin' is the word in Japanese as I understand it, and the underlying principle is from the Bubishi, "Techniques will occur in the absence of conscious thought."

The techniques and methods that people think don't work are the ones they have not trained long enough to find the right distance-timing-perception gap width for.

I'll go along with that. In addition to timing and distance, some cannot make certain techniques work because their basic body mechanics are not correct to apply the technique. For example, applying a wrist release properly as it pertains to the hand formation, but being unaware of the movement of the body to cause the wrist release to actually work and trying to 'muscle' it instead. Trying to trap a punch using speed and power instead of body shifting (tai sabaki).

Conversely, if.you find a particular martial art difficult to fight, it's probably because their techniques have unfamiliar gap widths which makes reading and defending them harder (hence the whole wing chun vs boxing debate).

Quite possibly.

As ever the medicine for this ailment has a bad taste: keep training the thing you can't make work. Keep getting beat up by your nemesis style. Consciously analyse why it's not working instead of dismissing as useless and when you know, work out how to set it up so it will work.

You will be a much better martial artist for it.

Agreed. Also seek input from those who can do the technique.

One of the problems with communicating such information, however, is that often the person who can do the technique is not themselves aware of all the small things they do correctly in order for the technique to work. So they pass on the gross motor skills they are aware of, and perhaps leave out the smaller ones that they have clearly mastered, but which they don't actually realize they are doing. Unless the student has a trained eye, they may also miss the more subtle movements required to make a given technique work. So it does very much help to have an instructor or partner who can really break it down and show all the tiny but oh-so-important bits of a given technique.

This, in my opinion, and off-topic, is also why I do not believe in video or book training. It can demonstrate the gross movements; it cannot deliver instruction on the tiny adjustments needed for effective techniques other than the most basic block-punch-kick exercises. In many cases, the adjustments required cannot be delivered without also being with the student; every person's body is different and moves harmoniously in slightly different ways. We may all generate power in similar ways, but the turn of a hip or the bend of a knee might be different from person to person; only trained personal instruction can see and make the necessary adjustments for that.

 

[seasoned]

Agreed. Also seek input from those who can do the technique.

One of the problems with communicating such information, however, is that often the person who can do the technique is not themselves aware of all the small things they do correctly in order for the technique to work. So they pass on the gross motor skills they are aware of, and perhaps leave out the smaller ones that they have clearly mastered, but which they don't actually realize they are doing. Unless the student has a trained eye, they may also miss the more subtle movements required to make a given technique work. So it does very much help to have an instructor or partner who can really break it down and show all the tiny but oh-so-important bits of a given technique.

This, in my opinion, and off-topic, is also why I do not believe in video or book training. It can demonstrate the gross movements; it cannot deliver instruction on the tiny adjustments needed for effective techniques other than the most basic block-punch-kick exercises. In many cases, the adjustments required cannot be delivered without also being with the student; every person's body is different and moves harmoniously in slightly different ways. We may all generate power in similar ways, but the turn of a hip or the bend of a knee might be different from person to person; only trained personal instruction can see and make the necessary adjustments for that.

Bill,
(Your above statement hits on the elements of traditional karate that are so important to development).

Not to side tract the thread but to add to it.

When I first started my training there was a lot of solo training of techniques with the emphasis always on hand positioning in regard to punches and blocks. We would spend hours over weeks, months and into years lining up doing this type of solo training.
Then to my amazement in later years on trips back to Okinawa guess what, they were doing the same thing over there. The Okinawans were stickers for proper hand positioning.
It wasn't until later years after the punch, kick, block phase of training was ingrained in us that we learned that a block wasn't always a block and a punch wasn't always a punch. By then though with, muscle memory, we fully understood the application of technique pertaining to grabs, locks and traps and how important those slight unimportant little changes made all the difference.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill,
(Your above statement hits on the elements of traditional karate that are so important to development).

Not to side tract the thread but to add to it.

When I first started my training there was a lot of solo training of techniques with the emphasis always on hand positioning in regard to punches and blocks. We would spend hours over weeks, months and into years lining up doing this type of solo training.
Then to my amazement in later years on trips back to Okinawa guess what, they were doing the same thing over there. The Okinawans were stickers for proper hand positioning.
It wasn't until later years after the punch, kick, block phase of training was ingrained in us that we learned that a block wasn't always a block and a punch wasn't always a punch. By then though with, muscle memory, we fully understood the application of technique pertaining to grabs, locks and traps and how important those slight unimportant little changes made all the difference.

Boom.

Take the 'dump' in Wansu. Oh man, does it get criticized. And yet, the first preparatory move, an open hand on the obi shaped as a kind of shovel, has tons of applications, none of which will work if you just 'place' the hand there. It has a very precise position and movement to get the hand there, and a purpose, which doesn't interfere with the 'obvious' bunkai, but which all the other more subtle applications depend upon. The stance, the hand, the body shifting move as the 'dump' is applied, it's all very subtle and very important. Same for the x block in Chinto. Tiny turn of one hand changes it from getting punched in the face to a killer setup for a sideways backfist from hell.

 

[oftheherd1]

Sorry, I missed this post until now. And I never studied Karate, but TKD for a short while.

No disrespect intended, but with my JKD background, if you had your fist on your hip I would have no problem executing a Straight Blast on you.

Am I understanding you are referring to a hand on the hip and there is no other opponent hand?

You clearly missed my last post where I explained that the hand on hip is a training device not a fighting method.

But if it makes you feel better I'm sure you could beat me up too.

But in all fairness, traditional competition does insist on fighting from that posture. A bit like how boxing insists that you only hit with the front of the glove. Sport is sport.

What it means though is that traditionalist competitors.developed defence based on distance and evasion. Though he didn't fight with a hand on his hip (as the rules didn't require it), Lyoto Machida demonstrated that defensive method in the UFC. So maybe it would not be as easy as you think.

Taking a single element from a martial art without supporting context is not a useful means of drawing conclusions.

I have learned that one fights as one trains. If a move or technique has no application in actual fighting, I would question if it has value. In my TKD training, I was taught the non-striking hand moved to the rear, with the hand at the hip, to increase the power of the strike; action/reaction. That along with other things to increase the power of the strike, such as the rotation of the hips you mentioned.

Also, I was taught that should my elbow strike an opponent behind me, I should immediately strike upwards with my fist with the idea of a strike to the opponent's face, hopefully up under the nose. Then, depending, perhaps a strike to the opponent's pelvis/groin. It is learned as an almost instinctive reaction; elbow contact, face strike.

 

[Tames D]

You clearly missed my last post where I explained that the hand on hip is a training device not a fighting method.

But if it makes you feel better I'm sure you could beat me up too.

But in all fairness, traditional competition does insist on fighting from that posture. A bit like how boxing insists that you only hit with the front of the glove. Sport is sport.

What it means though is that traditionalist competitors.developed defence based on distance and evasion. Though he didn't fight with a hand on his hip (as the rules didn't require it), Lyoto Machida demonstrated that defensive method in the UFC. So maybe it would not be as easy as you think.

Taking a single element from a martial art without supporting context is not a useful means of drawing conclusions.

Please. I didn't mean to insult you. I just believe that we should train to fight. If we are not going to fight with out hands on out hip, Why would we train that way? And I don't think I could beat you up.

 

[Tames D]

Quite a few people who do not train in TMA look at some of the basic exercises and training methods and decided that must be the way we fight, hands on hips, squared up against our opponents. Hey, let 'em believe that if they wish. People who mock what they do not understand can generally not be made to understand anyway; they lack the intellect for it. Leave it be and move on is my advice. I used to argue with such nonsense, but over time it reminded me of the old advice against wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

Please, Bill. Stop. I'm not mocking and I don't lack intellect. And I'm not a pig. Stop with the insults. I just gave my opinion.

 

[DaveB]

Please. I didn't mean to insult you. I just believe that we should train to fight. If we are not going to fight with out hands on out hip, Why would we train that way? And I don't think I could beat you up.

Your not going to start doing press ups in a bar fight either, does that mean you shouldn't do them in the dojo?

It is true that we fight how we train, but what do you think happens if you train to do two different things? You gain the flexibility to choose which to employ, like in the kung fu sparring example.

The first karate class I attended we spent roughly equal time training from a fighting guard with both hands in front and from the hand on belt position. It is a part of karate training, not the totality of it.

Training in traditional MA is a journey. It is a path of development that begins with learning how to move your body. You don't stop at that stage even though you may revisit those beginning exercises, you do so with a more advanced understanding of movement and so take different things from the training.

Understanding how to move correctly is not essential for learning to fight, but it is helpful and it makes some things easier as you learn more.

I think I've done a lot of explaining around this point now, from illustrating the place of the hip-fist kamae in training to giving examples of execution and application in free fighting. If you still don't get it, I suggest referencing the explanation that doesn't work for you and why. If nothing else the reread might reveal something you missed.

 

[Tames D]

Quite a few people who do not train in TMA look at some of the basic exercises and training methods and decided that must be the way we fight, hands on hips, squared up against our opponents. Hey, let 'em believe that if they wish. People who mock what they do not understand can generally not be made to understand anyway; they lack the intellect for it. Leave it be and move on is my advice. I used to argue with such nonsense, but over time it reminded me of the old advice against wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

I know you have a new internet philosophy, but it would be nice if you responded to me regarding your rude post. I responded to you. Please respond to mine.

 

[Tames D]

Please, Bill. Stop. I'm not mocking and I don't lack intellect. And I'm not a pig. Stop with the insults. I just gave my opinion.

Please take responsibility for your rude posts or leave this site. Respond to my posts please.

 

[Tames D]

I get it. I only recently 'came back' to MT and a couple other forums I used to frequent because I've adopted a new attitude, which is basically to stop feeding the trolls. They want act the ***, welcome to my ignore list. I can't let them suck me into their angry little worlds again. And that's my problem, not theirs, when they manage to get me into that state. I am on your side; but I just can't engage to the point of letting myself get angry anymore. Not good for my health.

Why are you playing the troll roll? You were pretty rude to me. We didn't miss you. Maybe it's time to leave again.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I know you have a new internet philosophy, but it would be nice if you responded to me regarding your rude post. I responded to you. Please respond to mine.

I apologize for my rudeness. With regard to my statement, although I could and should have worded it better, I was not responding to you, nor did I mean you. In fact, I had not read your comments, so I was unaware you had made them.

I said:

Quite a few people who do not train in TMA look at some of the basic exercises and training methods and decided that must be the way we fight, hands on hips, squared up against our opponents. Hey, let 'em believe that if they wish. People who mock what they do not understand can generally not be made to understand anyway; they lack the intellect for it. Leave it be and move on is my advice. I used to argue with such nonsense, but over time it reminded me of the old advice against wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it.
​

You are not a pig, nor do I think of you as one. My comment was far more general in nature; I was referring to the myriad of people whom I have encountered in the past who seem to think that traditional karate is ridiculous, based on what little they think they know of it.

For example, if one takes traditional style karate classes for a few months and then quits, one might well have the opinion that we fight squared up to our opponents, with our fists on our hips, etc, because that's how beginners train. Nothing could be further from the truth, but I have personally experienced a great difficulty getting that point across to people who choose to hate on karate for whatever reason. They seem to have made up their minds what karate is all about, they dislike it, and they bring up this false accusation whenever they can. I do not waste my time arguing with such people anymore. Since no one is going to change their mind about it, there is no point to having the discussion yet again.

I will say this one last time - I will not argue about it. Traditional karate teaches basic exercises with the student standing in a face-front, squared-off position with fists on hips for some specific reasons. Very quickly, the beginning student transitions to a more natural and defensive fighting position, with their fists in a guard position that is not at all unlike what is seen in boxing or any other fighting style. We begin our training with fists on hips to teach a reference point to where the power is generated from in our style; that is all. We do not fight like that. End of discussion.

Peace on you this holiday season. I sincerely apologize for any insult you took from my statements; I sincerely meant none. But the fault is mine and I do apologize.

 

[Tez3]

. In my TKD training, I was taught the non-striking hand moved to the rear, with the hand at the hip, to increase the power of the strike; action/reaction. That along with other things to increase the power of the strike, such as the rotation of the hips you mentioned.

.

Ah now you see I was taught, in karate, that the non striking hand moving to the rear was a grab and pulling down your opponent/attacker to do something like a knee strike on them. For shorter, less strong people like myself it's a good 'surprise' technique, it works well. I've never punched from the hip in sparring or fighting.

 

[BryceSPQR]

Just a note, after training a traditional gedan barai of blocking a kick at stomach level, I became very used to responding to a kick like that. When I made the transition to MMA I made the mistake of reaching for low kicks with a gedan barai style block. It was a habit, but I fixed eventually. I agree whole heartedly with the OP, it is an excellent teaching tool for body mechanics.

I believe downward blocks have tons of great real world applications. It all depends on if you practice it right!

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