New Implications on Ninjitsu(ism)

[sojobow]

Already answered the original.

 

[Don Roley]

There were about 5 other (half Bujinkan) sites. Each link is an obvious partial-page cut&paste.

And they all are run by people who can not speak/read Japanese and do not know what they are talking about and merely cut and pasted stuff from frauds like Ron Duncan and Frank Dux followers.

Simple fact- there is nothing in Japanese to back up the theory you so arrogently proclaimed of ninja existing 500 years before the Onin war in the form of the Koga hachi Tengu. The word can not be found in any Japanese source I have checked- probably because it is bad Japanese and was made up at some point.

This is besides the fact that you were activly deceptive about trying to imply that Hatsumi said something about the "Koga Hachi Tengu" when a quick look at the original site reveals he did not.

Thanks to you these forums will be gone in a short while.

 

[Enson]

with regards to el mensaje de hatsumi... all that part speaks of is using hakama as training uniforms. and that students shouldn't buy silk material but something more practicle and inexpensive for training. (that is my own translation).

peace

 

[sojobow]

Thanks to you these forums will be gone in a short while.

What did you expect? Or should we say: "wasn't it your, and others, intent anyway. We, in modern, never asked your input nor do I personally have any use for your off-thread, personal comments. None of use learn from your post. At least Kizaru adds something interesting to look into between sarcasum and parental insults. You add nothing but the same three names.

 

[heretic888]

Well now, don't bet you lunch money on this little nugget. Why not just say "no one {that I agree with} made a peep...." Or something to that effect. But, none of us are perfect. I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far.

Key words: "supposed to". I repeat the admonition I gave earlier: oral "history" is not documented fact.

Yes, much of the oral traditions place the "ninja" far earlier than most historians do. Togakure Daisuke was supposed to have lived in the early 1200's. In his book, Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions, Masaaki Hatsumi traces the grandmaster lineage of "Iga ryu Ninjutsu" all the way back to Gamon Doshi around the middle of the 1000's. The lineage he gives for "Koga ryu Ninjutsu" goes back even further.

But, the fact remains this is all still oral tradition. It is not documented history. The "ninja" as any kind of organized group were not historically active until the mid-to-late 1400's, when they did battle with the Ashikaga Shogun's forces. Any comments about them made prior to that is just speculation.

This actually makes sense when you look at it from a historical standpoint, too. The Iga-shu and Koga-shu were primarily known for their skills in commando and guerilla warfare. It wasn't 'til around the time of the Onin Wars that such groups would have even been needed. They clearly weren't active in such a fashion during the establishment of the Kamakura government (or else we would have heard something about guerilla armies from Iga and Koga at the time, which we don't). And, after the later feuds between the North and South Emperors were concluded, Japan saw a relatively long stretch of peace. So, it wasn't until the Onin Wars in the 15th century that the Iga-shu and Koga-shu would have even been needed. There would have been no point in them organizing themselves into commando forces in the first place.

Togakure ryu Ninjutsu was originally Togakure ryu Happo Hiken, I am told (which may also indicate a shared history with Kukishinden ryu Happo Hiken). That should probably give an indication that the whole spy/commando angle that people associate the "ninja" with didn't come about until later on in Japanese history. The 1500's and 1600's are the times when you hear all the legends and exploits of the "ninja" --- guys like Hanzo Hattori, Momochi Sandayu, Ishikawa Goemon, Fuuma Kotara, Sasuke Sarutobi, and so on. If you could name parallel groups or individuals prior to the 1400's, and what historical events they were supposedly involved in, I'm sure we would all be happy to listen.

Espionage and commando forces don't just "organize" and not do anything --- not get involved in Japan's history at all --- for 400 years, y'know.

Got this from a source you've used before too. So, if they "organized" around 950 a.d., they surely had to exist before then as ninja. Kooga is a family name drawn from somewhere!

Once again, oral tradition is not history. And, the "Koga" family name is drawn from the name of the region itself (as was very common at the time). It is not necessarily unique to any "ninja" families.

"During the Heian period (794-1185) many warriors within the Iga and Koga regions sought instruction from the monks in order to increase their efficiency in combat. Those fortunate enough to study from the Yamabushi and Sohei were taught the true value of subterfuge in warfare. It is said that the first established Koga groups came together around the year 940. There were eight original Koga families. They were the Koga, Ugai, Naikii, Mochizuki, Akutagawa, Ban, Nagano and Ueno. These eight groups were known as the “Koga Hachi Tengu,” or “Eight Tengu of Koga”. "

http://www.warriorquest.com/index.html

I'm with Don on this one. Online "histories" written by dubious "ninja" organizations are not reliable sources.

I think the major problem here, sojobow, is that you need to really read up on Japanese history and culture as a whole before going specifically into the "ninja". The entire notion of large forces of espionage and commando units training for active duty during the times you mentioned is completely implausible. The political and military climate at the time just wouldn't support something like that.

I don't see the need for a reference when all I ask for is information.

You won't find any "references" for something some internet ninjer just made up to support his art.

Laterz.

 

[sojobow]

Key words: "supposed to". I repeat the admonition I gave earlier: oral "history" is not documented fact.

Self evident isn't it. But simply because something isn't in writing, does not automatically make it not so. There is also "factual oral history" and documented lies.

Yes, much of the oral traditions place the "ninja" far earlier than most historians do. Togakure Daisuke was supposed to have lived in the early 1200's. In his book, Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions, Masaaki Hatsumi traces the grandmaster lineage of "Iga ryu Ninjutsu" all the way back to Gamon Doshi around the middle of the 1000's. The lineage he gives for "Koga ryu Ninjutsu" goes back even further.

I rest my case.

It wasn't 'til around the time of the Onin Wars that such groups would have even been needed. They clearly weren't active in such a fashion during the establishment of the Kamakura government (or else we would have heard something about guerilla armies from Iga and Koga at the time, which we don't).

But I have. I'll try and locate it.

I'm with Don on this one. Online "histories" written by dubious "ninja" organizations are not reliable sources.

Regardless, the dubiousness does not rule out plausible truths. Were there Yamabushi? yes. Were there Sohei? yes. Did they both teach? Yes. Did they teach some who lived in the mountain ranges that include the Koga and Iga areas? Yes. Did they teach the use of their own weapons? Yes. Did they teach the professional strategist now called "Ninja"? Yes. Personally, its possible, written or oral.

I think the major problem here, sojobow, is that you need to really read up on Japanese history and culture as a whole before going specifically into the "ninja". The entire notion of large forces of espionage and commando units training for active duty during the times you mentioned is completely implausible. The political and military climate at the time just wouldn't support something like that.

Appreciate your advice. Still begs the question however: If the forces were first written about in 1400, they surely must have existed "before" then. Just didn't pop up, fully armed, trained, mobilized, entrenched, contracted, pre-proven as a viable alternative to the Samurai, over night.

What of the the "history" written in surrounding Nations of warfare with the Japanese. I would guess that there are sections in their histories that elude to these "Ninja." Japan did endeavor warefare with both Korea and China. What of the history (written and oral) of these other Nations? Possible or Impossible? Plausible of Implausible.

Then again, I just was interested in what the Yamabushi and Sohei taught during this time period of 950 a.d.. The teaching are what interest me. The "who they taught" is incidental. Subtefuge is a worthy subject to study. Can't read Japanese so i'll have to rely on other's research for now.

You won't find any "references" for something some internet ninjer just made up to support his art. Laterz.

If you read the page, he does mention that his statements orginated from Japanese sources. I just didn't ask him for the sources. The subject is also under collegent study by students from major universities in other countries. Some working on Ph.Ds etc who speak the language and are completing their research in Japan. Should we consider their research. Or do we just disregard their research just because they attend the University of Moscow or something?

You bring up some good points that I think are interesting. I just also think that some of our greatest mass murderers and serial killers had/have extremely high I.Q.s. We can also learn from them. This, I found of interest from Phycological Research professionals.

 

[Genin Andrew]

So you are saying that you are one of the ones "that know"?

OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now.

Let me ask you this, did the US Army Rangers that went ashore at Normandy use the same flintlocks that Roger's Rangers used in the French- Indian war? (PS- both the French and the Indians lost.)

Yes there was 200 years difference between the two wars, but you are talking about over 500 years between the abandoning of the double edged, straight bladed sword and the rise of the class we now know as ninja.

Oh yeah, there were people living in Iga 500 years before beggining of what we call the age of wars in Japan. But they can not be called ninja anymore than the guys running around in Bronze age England with pointy objects can be likened to the knights that we know of from after Billy did his number at Hastings.

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough. Within 50 years you stop seeing references and illustrations of the old style swords on the battlefield and everyone using the newer, curved katana/tachi style. The straight blade was kept only by members of the Imperial court much like the royalty of England is proceeeded by a ceremonial mace even today.

If you are trying to say that someone kept a sword for 500 hundred years before using it, I say you should ask anyone who has owned a bike in Japan and see why they call this place the land of perpetual humidity. Everything rusts. And metal was kind of rare a thousand years ago. Some of the oldest buildings in Japan's first permanent capital at Nara are made without a single metal nail. So, the idea that someone who was so without resources that they could not get a new sword, or melt the old one down into something more usefull could somehow keep a blade intact for a longer time than there have been white men living in your country is just plain silly.

And as for you appeal to the authority of Stephen Hayes, have you read his fifth book from Ohara Publications? In it he clearly states that the idea of the ninja using a straight bladed sword is a myth. It is only in his early books that he says they used one. Why? Well, humans make mistakes. Hayes is human, thus Hayes makes mistakes. So his early works may have said that the ninja used swords based on a misunderstanding on his part from a TV series popular at the time he was living here. Maybe not. The important thing from your standpoint is that he changed his opinion when he got more knowledgeable.

When you get to Japanese sources on the sword, you can not find one that says that the ninja used a straight bladed sword. Hatsumi does not say it, and neither does other sources such as Okuse, Nawa, Nakajima, etc. We have gone over this time and time again. The ninja did not use straight bladed swords. Show me a Japanese source that says they did.

Thankyou Don, very informative. I stand corrected.
I do understand that Hayes is human and makes mistakes, that is all fine. I was using comments of his from his older works which is why it would sound "outdated" and incorrect. I dont believe that Ninja clans all ran around swinging ninjato'ss, for many reasons. All i was trying to say is that who's to say that a few didn't? Some people seem to imply that it was impossible for a Ninja's hand to make physical connection with straight bladed sword! But i understand you're point. And your right, this is a very exhausted topic.

Sojobow, whats with the scoring crap? i think its best that you dont turn the exchanging of information and the education of people (including myself) into a competition. I wasn't trying to "battle" Don like you made it sound...unecessary conflict. (Kizaru, why do you team me and Sojobow up? It's ok i have a good sense of humour)

Heretic, From my understanding 'Katana or Ken' is Japanese for Sword, a sword in general not a particular style.The word encompasses Chokuto, Shinogi Zukuri, Hira Zukuri all styles...I think.Hopefully Don can clear up the translation.

thanks.
-andrew

 

[Kizaru]

At least Kizaru adds something interesting to look into between ...

Thank you!

...sarcasum and parental insults...

Must've touched a nerve with that one, eh?

 

[heretic888]

Self evident isn't it. But simply because something isn't in writing, does not automatically make it not so. There is also "factual oral history" and documented lies.

You're beating around the bush. Again.

The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of, to support the notion that the Iga and Koga "ninja" had organized themselves into effective guerilla forces prior to the Onin Wars of the 15th century. Meaning, if they did exist in such a capacity, they did not involve themselves in Japan's wars until the 1470's or so.

Unless, of course, no one just noticed brigands of highly-trained commandos disrupting their wars for a couple of centuries. I suppose its possible they just "looked the other way" for 300 years. *chuckle*

"Could be" and "what if" are not the basis to support a historical theory. They are the basis of groundless speculation.

I rest my case.

You have no case, and you still evince that you do not understand that oral tradition is not proven history. That's not the point of oral tradition (kuden) anyway.

But I have. I'll try and locate it.

Sorry, sojobow, but no dice. Pardon me if I don't just take your word on references to these Iga and Koga commando armies during the Kamakura Period --- especially since no one else, not even the fellas in Japan, seem to know about them.

And, before you bother, "histories" from internet dojos and unverified oral traditions do not count as reputable sources.

Regardless, the dubiousness does not rule out plausible truths. Were there Yamabushi? yes. Were there Sohei? yes. Did they both teach? Yes.

Sure.

Did they teach some who lived in the mountain ranges that include the Koga and Iga areas? Yes. Did they teach the use of their own weapons? Yes. Did they teach the professional strategist now called "Ninja"? Yes. Personally, its possible, written or oral.

Possibility does not equal probability. This is another of your speculative diversions. Again.

Also, even if the sohei and yamabushi did "teach" the Iga and Koga "ninja" as you claim, this does not equate that the group you are searching for (the "Koga Eight Demons" or whatever they were called) actually existed.

You are using a generalization to prove a specific circumstance that may or may not have happened. Its a huge logical fallacy.

Once again, proof is required. Not possibilities, not what ifs, not speculations. But, rather, actual proof.

Appreciate your advice. Still begs the question however: If the forces were first written about in 1400, they surely must have existed "before" then. Just didn't pop up, fully armed, trained, mobilized, entrenched, contracted, pre-proven as a viable alternative to the Samurai, over night.

Of course they didn't just self-generate in the 1470's. But, the notion that they were hiding in secret, never using the skills they had trained in, for the better part of 400 years is just laughable. The truth is that the commando groups such as the Iga-gumi and Koga-gumi did not exist until they were needed, which was in the 15th century on.

Also, they were not an "alternative" to the samurai.

What of the the "history" written in surrounding Nations of warfare with the Japanese. I would guess that there are sections in their histories that elude to these "Ninja." Japan did endeavor warefare with both Korea and China. What of the history (written and oral) of these other Nations? Possible or Impossible? Plausible of Implausible.

First off, its "allude".

Secondly, unless you can provide specific references in these Chinese and Korean historical sources, then you are once again engaging in baseless speculations.

Yet again, possibility does not equal probability.

Then again, I just was interested in what the Yamabushi and Sohei taught during this time period of 950 a.d.. The teaching are what interest me. The "who they taught" is incidental. Subtefuge is a worthy subject to study. Can't read Japanese so i'll have to rely on other's research for now.

Its not "incidental" if you're going to pose it as some uber-secret Koger teachings. Also, what makes you think the yamabushi and sohei taught "subterfuge" in the first place??

If you read the page, he does mention that his statements orginated from Japanese sources.

Yeah, so does Ashida Kim. Just because something is said, does not make it true. I actually think this is related to your reliance on oral "histories" as being factual sources --- you really have a hard time analyzing any claim that you happen to like.

The subject is also under collegent study by students from major universities in other countries. Some working on Ph.Ds etc who speak the language and are completing their research in Japan. Should we consider their research. Or do we just disregard their research just because they attend the University of Moscow or something?

These discussions would really go about more smoothly if you refrained from lying.

I just also think that some of our greatest mass murderers and serial killers had/have extremely high I.Q.s. We can also learn from them. This, I found of interest from Phycological Research professionals.

And, what exactly does that have to do with any of this??

*shrugs* Laterz.

 

[sojobow]

I really stopped reading your post after reading up to the very first comma (to wit): The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of,. The phrase "that I know of, explains your point of view or/and your perspective. Even your logic (although you have a right to it) is not "documentation."

Let's move on because I keep adding "that I know of, to the end of every paragraph you've written and its really unfair to you for me to do so. Try it yourself and see if your post makes more sense by adding your "that I know of," to the end of each paragraph.

Elude or "allude ?" this is the question. (shakespear or someone). Thanks, but I'm hooked on phonics.:idunno:

You're beating around the bush. Again.

The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of, to support the notion that the Iga and Koga "ninja" had organized themselves into effective guerilla forces prior to the Onin Wars of the 15th century. Meaning, if they did exist in such a capacity, they did not involve themselves in Japan's wars until the 1470's or so.

Unless, of course, no one just noticed brigands of highly-trained commandos disrupting their wars for a couple of centuries. I suppose its possible they just "looked the other way" for 300 years. *chuckle*

"Could be" and "what if" are not the basis to support a historical theory. They are the basis of groundless speculation.



You have no case, and you still evince that you do not understand that oral tradition is not proven history. That's not the point of oral tradition (kuden) anyway.



Sorry, sojobow, but no dice. Pardon me if I don't just take your word on references to these Iga and Koga commando armies during the Kamakura Period --- especially since no one else, not even the fellas in Japan, seem to know about them.

And, before you bother, "histories" from internet dojos and unverified oral traditions do not count as reputable sources.



Sure.



Possibility does not equal probability. This is another of your speculative diversions. Again.

Also, even if the sohei and yamabushi did "teach" the Iga and Koga "ninja" as you claim, this does not equate that the group you are searching for (the "Koga Eight Demons" or whatever they were called) actually existed.

You are using a generalization to prove a specific circumstance that may or may not have happened. Its a huge logical fallacy.

Once again, proof is required. Not possibilities, not what ifs, not speculations. But, rather, actual proof.



Of course they didn't just self-generate in the 1470's. But, the notion that they were hiding in secret, never using the skills they had trained in, for the better part of 400 years is just laughable. The truth is that the commando groups such as the Iga-gumi and Koga-gumi did not exist until they were needed, which was in the 15th century on.

Also, they were not an "alternative" to the samurai.



First off, its "allude".

Secondly, unless you can provide specific references in these Chinese and Korean historical sources, then you are once again engaging in baseless speculations.

Yet again, possibility does not equal probability.



Its not "incidental" if you're going to pose it as some uber-secret Koger teachings. Also, what makes you think the yamabushi and sohei taught "subterfuge" in the first place??



Yeah, so does Ashida Kim. Just because something is said, does not make it true. I actually think this is related to your reliance on oral "histories" as being factual sources --- you really have a hard time analyzing any claim that you happen to like.



These discussions would really go about more smoothly if you refrained from lying.



And, what exactly does that have to do with any of this??

*shrugs* Laterz.

 

[Don Roley]

I really stopped reading your post after reading up to the very first comma (to wit): The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of,. The phrase "that I know of, explains your point of view or/and your perspective. Even your logic (although you have a right to it) is not "documentation."

Well, first of all there is no documentation in all of Japan for ninja bands running around in the time frame you want them to exist.

Second, there is no documentation that you know of as well to support your claims. You can only point to web sites and nothing in Japanese. I can point you to a web site that will say that the US never went to the moon and that 9-11 was done by the Isrealis. But there is no proof that these sites can point to.

Lastely, your view and use of history is flawed. You want to say that just because there is no proof for what you say does not mean we should beleive it.

OK, using that logic we can say that there is no documentation that we know of Frank Dux using his dojo to molest students. Gee, if we then tried to use your logic for history we would get a lawsuit from Dux. He would demand proof that we show some sort of proof that he molested students before we talked about it as a reality. But you cannot show proof of ninjas existing before the 15th century or a link to China and yet state both of those things as if they were fact time and time again.

So that is why we demand proof to your silly little theories. Not speculation, not conjecture, not some web site run by someone almost as clueless as you, FACTS, and in Japanese if possible.

 

[sojobow]

Well, first of all there is no documentation in all of Japan for ninja bands running around in the time frame you want them to exist.

1.) Kind of hard for me to show you anything "in all of Japan" since I'm not there. So, excuse me for not being situated in your location. Amazing that you know what exist and what does not exist "in all of Japan".

2) What you consider a "ninja band" and what I consider a "ninja band" just simply are too different in definition thus, there is no way I can provide you with the proof you will accept. Not putting words in your mouth so allow me to again state that I consider anything "Ninja" as a "professional designation" and not a person, individual or band. From what I can tell, your definition of the term "Ninja" is different. One does not have to be physically tied to "all of Japan" to be Ninja.

Second, there is no documentation that you know of as well to support your claims.

I "claim" nothing. I only ask. I can't tell you where I am. Can you? Where is Earth right now? (Hint: It's not where it was when I asked the question). I can, however, show you different perspectives on that which you claim. Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan. So one wonders, why would Japanese present these ranks and awards to Bujinkan designated frauds? Not important to me so I need no further explanations. Just ironic.

Lastely, your view and use of history is flawed.

Absolutely. Can't disagree with you on this one. Glad that I am learning every day. Its like pulling teeth to get you guys to disgourge (sp.l) information or even hints. Still trying to get one of you to tell me where I can find more information on the 8 Tengu Ryu. He's thinking about giving it up. Very interesting.

OK, using that logic we can say that there is no documentation that we know of Frank Dux

True, you don't. But who the heck is this person you continuously refer to in 99% of your post?

But you cannot show proof of ninjas existing before the 15th century or a link to China and yet state both of those things as if they were fact time and time again.

Sure I can. This one is easy. But first, DEFINE NINJA!

in Japanese if possible.

I keep telling you: I CANNOT SPEAK OR READ OR DRAW PICTURES OR EVEN COMMUNICATE IN JAPANESE. Geeeeze :idunno: . Again, we are impressed with your dual languages but give it a rest. We heard you last year. DON ROLEY SPEAKS JAPANESE EVERYBODY. LETS GIVE HIM A BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE (after we see if he can fight).

Help me out with this question/quest please. Someone in one of these threads mentioned that he has read books about Chinese Ninjas and hates them all (paraphrasing only). If you notice the post, let me know as I would like to ask him the name of the books he's referring to. Can't believe that someone, other than sojobow, even thinks of the existance of Chinese Ninjas let alone writing books about them. Hope they aren't written in Japanese.

Item Last: Just a question. If I show you the reference to Books by Hatsumi Sensei that refer to Ninjas in existance prior to F/Y 1,000 a.d.. would that be considered relative proof? Since HS can't speak or write in English, will I have deal with you defending that the proof isn't good enough because something was lost in translation? What if its on his universal website?

As Kizaru says. I digress

 

[Don Roley]

I can, however, show you different perspectives on that which you claim. Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan.

Doubtfull. More stuff you throw out just to confuse the issue. "Oh, I am only asking...."

 

[sojobow]

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

 

[Don Roley]

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

Again, doubtfull. Sounds like a great excuse to try to say they exist without actually having to back up what you say-which is why we call you a troll.

So lets say I said that these photos do not exist. G'head show the photos to us.

 

[Kizaru]

2) What you consider a "ninja band" and what I consider a "ninja band" just simply are too different in definition thus,

My definition of a "Ninja Band" is that they wail on guitars, have face paint cooler than KISS and get tons of babes.

DON ROLEY SPEAKS JAPANESE EVERYBODY. LETS GIVE HIM A BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE

YEAH DON!!! Hey, I speak Japanese too, even Tochigi dialect, can I get a big round of applause too?!?!?

(after we see if he can fight).

Are you challenging Don Roley to a fight? That's kind of what it looks like, Sojobow challenging Don Roley to a fight. I hope Kaith doesn't peek at this thread, I thought that was grounds for getting booted. But hey, if you want to challenge Don Roley to a fight, be my guest.

As Kizaru says. I digress

When have I ever said that? Of course, I've been hit and/or dropped on my head so many times I probably wouldn't remember anyways...

 

[sojobow]

Well, first of all there is no documentation in all of Japan for ninja bands running around in the time frame you want them to exist.

Some of the people we wish to thank for the sources are here listed in no particular order. . . Sveneric Bogsaeter * Perti Ruha * Stan Skrabut * Mariette V. D. Vliet * Charles Daniels * Bernadette V. D. Vliet * Stephen Turnbull * Ben Jones * Paul Richardson * HATSUMI Masaaki * Gothenburg ninposaellskap (and possibly many others)


KOGA RYU NINJUTSU
Peter Carlsson
Text and Research by Peter Carlsson Translated by Mats Hjelm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koga Ryu Ninjutsu was the other ninja clan of importance in Japan. This ryu consisted of 53 families who probably came together under the Tenkyo period between 938 and 946.
It was after Mochizuki Saburo Kameie triumphed in the war against Taira No Masakado that he received a bit of land southeast of the Omo province. The area was called Koga-Gun, so Mochizuke changed his name to Koga Oni No Kami Kameie. It was his son, Oni No Kami Iechika, a talent in the military as well as in literature, that was supposed to have been the founder of the Koga Ryu. It is said that he studied Genjutsu from the Buddhist monk Tatsumaki Hoshi who lived in the area.
The tradition kept going for seven generations through Oni No Kami Ienari, Iesada, Ienaga, Iekiyo, Ietoo, Ieyoshi and Yoshiyasu, before it spread to other families: Mochizuki, Ugai, Naiki, and Akutagawa. To these five head families the remaining troops from both the north and south kingdom in the Namboku were joined (1335-1395) . With help from Koga Ryu they grew to 53 families. Some of the ryu (families) within Koga Ryu were:

Koga ryu
Taro ryu
Otomo ryu
Shinpi ryu
Kuruya ryu
Hiryu ryu
Taira ryuTomo ryu
Fujiwara ryu Isshu ryu
Tatara ryu
Sasaki ryu
Byaku ryu
Sugawara ryu
Tachibana Hachi Tengu ryu
Kawachi Yon Tengu ryu
While the Koga Ryu grew, there were eight families (Koga Hachi Tengu) that would be the strongest, leading the other ryu in Koga. The eight families were: Koga, Mochizuki, Ugai, Naikii, Akutagawa; Ueno, Ban and Nagano. But even groups in Koga such as Hiryugumi, Kakuryugumi, Tachibana Hachitengu Gumi and Kawachi Yon Tengu Gumi had ninjutsu masters of high class.
Under the Hokuto period (1441-1451), the leading heirs were Koga Saburo, Mochizuki Goro, Ugai Ryuhoshi, Naiki Fujibe and Akutagawa Kazuma. Under the Bunmei period (1469-1487) they were Koga Saburo Ii, Mochizuki Yajiro, Ugai Chiaki, Naiki Gohei and Akutagawa Tenpei who was hired by the Sasaki family - the Daimyo in that area - to lead their troops against Ashikaga Yoshizawa.
Almost 100 years later the Sasaki family hired ninjas again. This time they were ninjas from both the Koga and Iga area (1570). They also hired samurais from Koga and the goal was to destroy Oda Nobunaga. The samurais were trained intensively for a short period to be able to fight under the strategies that the ninja jonin had worked out.
Sasaki's army was divided into three divisions. The first one was led by ninjas from Mikumo Ryu, Takanose Ryu; Mizuhara Ryu and Inui Ryu. The other army was led by the other 53 Koga families, and the third by the Sasaki samurais. In the battle, Mikumo Iyo No Kami, who led one of the Sasaki armies suddenly changed sides and attacked the Sasaki army's back,. This led to the defeat of Sasaki, who barely managed to escape.
When Tokugawa Ieyasu fought for power in Japan, the Fushima castle near Kyoto was occupied. They had to defend themselves against the armies in the west long enough for the Tokugawa army to regroup for the fight in Seki Ga Hara in the east. There were also 400 ninjas from Koga Ryu who helped them with the defense - some of them in the castle, while others terrorized the enemy outside with different kinds of raids. About 100 of them died, and after the Tokugawa victory they held a ceremony commemorating the dead, among whom Mochizuki and Arakawa were mentioned to have been killed.
One of the last times the Koga ninja were active in a battle was at Shima-Bara No Ran, when Christian samurais rebelled and occupied the Hara castle in Shimabara province on Kyushu. Ten ninjas from Koga Ryu were sent by Izumo Kami Nobutsuna to gather information for the Shogun samurais to prepare an attack against the castle.
They were led by Mochizuki Heidayu, 63 years old and Akutagawa Kiyouemon, 60 years old, both veterans from the battle at Sekigahara. The others from Koga were:

Iwane Kanbei, 56 years old
Kamogai Kanuemon, 56 years old
Tomei Gohei, 53 years old
Iwani Kanbei, 45 years old
Natsumi Kakunosuke, 41 years old
Mochizuki Yoemon ,33 years old
Akutagawa Shichirobei, 25 years old
Yamanaka Jutayu, 24 years old.
They arrived on the 4th of January 1638, and their first assignment was to create a map of the area around the castle. Only 15 days later, they sent a detailed map of the castle and the forces protecting it to Edo and the Shogun, Tokugawa Iemitsu.
It is also said that the ninjas from Koga, or Ongyo No Mono (hidden persons) as they were also called, infiltrated the castle each night without problem. The 21st of January they stole food from the castle, which did not make it easier for the enemy since they already had very little food. They also managed to get some secret passwords.
January 27th, five Koga ninjas managed to get into the castle disguised as soldiers. They was Mochizuki Yoemon, Arakawa Shichirobei, Natsume Kakano-Suke, Yamanaka Jutayu and Tomo Gohei. The troops outside the castle fired with their rifles, and the enemy in the castle automatically blew out all the torches so they wouldn't draw more fire to them. Later that night, when the guards began to relax, the ninja could easily climb over the walls in the protection of the darkness.
Arakawa got careless and fell down in a hole. He got immediate help from Mochizuki. But because of the noise, the guards lit the torches again, and they was spotted. Mochizuki and Arakawa both ran right through the troops, snatched one of the Christian flags on the way, and got shot at. All five managed to escape, but both Mochizuki and Arakawa got wounded.
When the castle was attacked the 24th of February, the Koga ninjas served as an office of connections between the two troops. As a parenthesis, it can be mentioned that Musashi Miyamoto (one of the most famous swordsmen throughout the history), was one of the plan makers on the Shogun's side. He was hit by a rock thrown by a woman from the castle wall, he had to retreat from the battle complaining about his loss of youthful power.
The Koga Ryu survived into the middle of the 20th century through one man, Fujita Seiko (1899-1966). He said that he was the 14th Soke of Koga Ryu, but there was no proof to those claims. He led small special units in the jungles in the second world war.
There is a book called "Ninjutsu No Gokui" (The secrets of Ninjutsu), written by Gingetsu, who learned the techniques and history over a long period of time from Tanemura Ihachiro, a jonin in Koga Ryu. The techniques described in that book is very similar to those in the Togakure Ryu from Iga.
Those who claim to be "masters" of Koga Ryu today must be considered as con artists and nothing else. Based on the fact the body movement from the Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu was very similar, the "supposed Koga Ryu" that is taught today does not have much in similarity with the Togakure Ryu and the other traditional systems from Iga and Koga.

THE DISCLAIMER & END NOTES
The original Text and research was made by Peter Carlsson who may be reached at <[email protected]>. Translation was made from Swedish to English by Mats Hjelm who may be contacted at <[email protected]>
This is absolutely not to be taken as "true fact" since it is quite impossible to prove the Kuden. We would be happy for any kind of creative and serious research that you have found out, so if you have noticed some errors in this text or would like to point out something else worth a note please let us know so we could update and make this even more accurate. And if possible, please try to back up your claims with some sort of verification or serious references.
A big problem when one does research about the history of ninja and Bujinkan is when one compares information in books about the subject with general acknowledged history in history books. This means that all information in circulation is to be considered as gossip until it can be compared and proven against general history. This includes the text above.

Some of the people we wish to thank for the sources are here listed in no particular order. . . Sveneric Bogsaeter * Perti Ruha * Stan Skrabut * Mariette V. D. Vliet * Charles Daniels * Bernadette V. D. Vliet * Stephen Turnbull * Ben Jones * Paul Richardson * HATSUMI Masaaki * Gothenburg ninposaellskap (and possibly many others)
==========================================================

You already know Steve Turnbull, Charles Daniels (you might not like him very much though), Hatsumi Masaaki (who, according to you, can ask in person). Still at 500 years and counting.

Really though, enough is enough. Lets just say you don't agree and I do. I'm showing you what I have, but you show nothing. Show us where someone says (other than heretic888) that "no ninja existed prior to the 15th century." Show us your souce and text.

 

[Don Roley]

Again, doubtfull. Sounds like a great excuse to try to say they exist without actually having to back up what you say-which is why we call you a troll.

So lets say I said that these photos do not exist. G'head show the photos to us.

Gee, how will Sojobow get out of this. Let me see... maybe he will try to get the conversation going in an entirely different direction altogether with a little deception. Let me see, maybe he can post something about how I said there is no documentiation from Japan for what he claims, and then post yet another non-Japanese source from the internet. Maybe if they quote from Hatusmi on ONE aspect, he can get people to believe that he is the source for EVERYTHING on the document.

After all, he has already been caught trying to make it seem like Hatsumi said something he did not. And just got caught saying he could provide proof, and is now trying to distract.

 

[Enson]

YEAH DON!!! Hey, I speak Japanese too, even Tochigi dialect, can I get a big round of applause too?!?!?

i speak spanish! does that award an applause?

Are you challenging Don Roley to a fight? That's kind of what it looks like, Sojobow challenging Don Roley to a fight. I hope Kaith doesn't peek at this thread, I thought that was grounds for getting booted. But hey, if you want to challenge Don Roley to a fight, be my guest.

i think sojo is refering to ralph severe's post on don not having any fighting experience.

When have I ever said that? Of course, I've been hit and/or dropped on my head so many times I probably wouldn't remember anyways...

i think kreth or duckofdeath said that.

 

[heretic888]

I really stopped reading your post after reading up to the very first comma (to wit): The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of,. The phrase "that I know of, explains your point of view or/and your perspective. Even your logic (although you have a right to it) is not "documentation."

Let's move on because I keep adding "that I know of, to the end of every paragraph you've written and its really unfair to you for me to do so. Try it yourself and see if your post makes more sense by adding your "that I know of," to the end of each paragraph.

Here's a better idea: try not engaging in faulty logic to defend your historical fantasies.

The line of arguing above, that since you don't know of any proof does not mean said proof does not exist, is completely baseless. I could use said argument to give "reason" as to why there are little green men in octagonal spaceships watching us from space. I mean, sure, I don't know of any evidence to support such a claim ---- but, remember, that doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist!!

Arguments like that can be used to rationalize "support" for ANY position --- no matter how outlandish or ludicrous. This is just yet another example of the baseless speculation you pass off as "research".

Also, even if we disregard the lack of primary evidence for a moment, your position still falls prey to the wealth of correlative counterevidence --- such as, for example, that Japan did not experience any period of great warfare since the feuds of the North and South Emperors (early-to-mid 1300's) until the time of the Onin no Ran (mid-to-late 1400's). This is a +100 year stretch of relative peace, thus precluding the necessity for large commando forces whatsoever.

Thus, sojobow, your position is logically weak on two fronts: 1) its lack of primary evidence to support it, and 2) its inability to account for the wealth of established counterevidence that refutes it.

Kind of hard for me to show you anything "in all of Japan" since I'm not there. So, excuse me for not being situated in your location. Amazing that you know what exist and what does not exist "in all of Japan".

Yet again, another diversionary tactic used to justify perpetual baseless speculation. You argue that, because no one has purviewed the historical evidence of "all of Japan", that evidence to support your claim might actually exist.

You're right, it might. And, evidence might exist to support the exitence of my octagonal spaceship-dwelling green men, too.

As before, "might be", "could be", "what if", and "its possible" are not sound logic here. Possibility is not probability.

What you consider a "ninja band" and what I consider a "ninja band" just simply are too different in definition thus, there is no way I can provide you with the proof you will accept. Not putting words in your mouth so allow me to again state that I consider anything "Ninja" as a "professional designation" and not a person, individual or band. From what I can tell, your definition of the term "Ninja" is different. One does not have to be physically tied to "all of Japan" to be Ninja.

Well, what you consider a "ninja band", sojobow, is quite different than what the historians and researchers that study the individuals in question have in mind. Granted, they themselves don't all agree, but they would simply laugh at your "non-Japanese ninja" speculation here.

As I understand it (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the term "shinobi no mono" (the modern "ninja") as applied to actual groups of people was first directed to the Iga-shu and Koga-shu warriors in the 15th century. If you have references to other uses of the term prior to this, sojobow, then feel free to share them with us.

I "claim" nothing. I only ask.

I did request that stop lying previously, sojobow.

I can't tell you where I am. Can you? Where is Earth right now? (Hint: It's not where it was when I asked the question).

Oh, look, another diversionary tactic to support a baseless argument. Yay.

I can, however, show you different perspectives on that which you claim. Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan. So one wonders, why would Japanese present these ranks and awards to Bujinkan designated frauds?

Prove it. If the event in question happened as you said it did, then surely you'd be able to contact someone from Japan that witnessed something you have super-secret photographs of. Provide their contact information for independent corroboration.

Help me out with this question/quest please. Someone in one of these threads mentioned that he has read books about Chinese Ninjas and hates them all (paraphrasing only).

"Hates them all"?? Dear lord....

Can't believe that someone, other than sojobow, even thinks of the existance of Chinese Ninjas let alone writing books about them. Hope they aren't written in Japanese.

They aren't. I've come across books that make dubious claims like that, and they are all, without exception, written by British or Americans.

Item Last: Just a question. If I show you the reference to Books by Hatsumi Sensei that refer to Ninjas in existance prior to F/Y 1,000 a.d.. would that be considered relative proof?

Hatsumi is recounting the oral history of the schools in question. Last time I checked, orally transmitted stories do not constitute "historical evidence".

But, then again, that seems to be the basic concept you have been having trouble grasping.

What if its on his universal website?

Its not.

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

I really do think you should see a good psychiatrist, sojobow.

Koga Ryu Ninjutsu was the other ninja clan of importance in Japan. This ryu consisted of 53 families who probably came together under the Tenkyo period between 938 and 946.

Yet again, sojobow, Peter Carlsson is recounting the oral stories associated with the creation of the ryuha in question. It is not documented history.

I think you will find that a great number of old ryuha have oral stories that can't possibly be true, usually intended to paint their school in a prestigious light. How many, for example, claim to have been founded by gods, tengu, emperors, immortals, etc?? How many, for example, claim a connection to Minamoto Yoritomo, Minamoto Yoshitsune, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Yamato Takeru, and so forth??

This is the primary reason why such oral traditions are not regarded as veritable historical records. Deal with it.

Laterz.