New Implications on Ninjitsu(ism)

[sojobow]

Kizaru:

Now you know that Ninja do not make challenges. I don't have enought cash laying around to get to Japan anyway so it definately isn't a challenge. Just that he and I spend so much time with these fruitless conversations that I'm slacking off the practice.

Any yes: GIVE YOURSELF A GREAT ROUND OF APPLAUSE TOO !!!!!!!!

 

[sojobow]

First of all, LET GIVE ENSON HIS DUE FOR HIS SECOND LANGUAGE TOO. DRUM ROLL PLEASE.

Thus, sojobow, your position is logically weak on two fronts: 1) its lack of primary evidence to support it, and 2) its inability to account for the wealth of established counterevidence that refutes it.

Now even Hatsumi is lying. Gave you contact info. Try asking them for the proof and thereby bypassing me. Incidentally, haven't seen you show us anything other than these long, drawn-out, critiques on subjects no one is even discussing.

But, I think I've figured it out. Web documents like the one I pasted above are compiled by, thus far, Judans and other ranking dans in your - note my - traditional war art. Then, they - like Carlsson, Hatsummi S. - are all accused of sojobow's digressions even up to their own Soke. Then one wonders why? Ooooops. Don Roley wrote an essay on Koga Ryu and his essay, compared to Carlsson's, don't match and this "modern" sections keeps referring to someone other than Roley. Then, heretic888 comes to the rescue with God-knows-what-he-just-said. What did your mouth just say?:whip:

Think we better move on. Things are starting to illuminatate other motives. It wasn't my intent to attack Roley's essay nor Roley personally, I'm just looking for these Hachi Tengu. But, I understand. If I come up with anything resembling proof that the Hachi Tengu ever existed and was established prior to the 15th Century - in this case the 10th Century - not only are your whatevertheywere wrong, but also, Roley's "Koga Ryu" essay is trash.

 

[Don Roley]

Hatsumi is recounting the oral history of the schools in question. Last time I checked, orally transmitted stories do not constitute "historical evidence".

More importantly, Hatsumi's oral tradtion does not back up the picture of the ninja that Sojobow is trying to present.

Recall that Sojobow is trying to push the position that ninja used the ancient, straight blades that preceeded the tachi/katana. But the time frame is wrong, so he is trying to push the time frame of ninja activity forward several hundred years. I believe he stated at first that the "Koga Hachi Tengu" were active in the early tenth century.

And the important thing is that Hatsumi has said neither

A) that there were ninja traditions prior to the time that the straight bladed sword was dropped or
B) that there were active bands of ninja running around when these swords were used.

At best, you can say that Hatsumi has laid out the traditions that would eventually evolve into what we know of as ninja after the adoption of the curved blade.

Let me give you an example. One of the oral traditons we follow is that of the Togakure ryu. It is said to have been started by Nishina Daisuke. Nishina is an established figure who was a high ranked retainer of Kiso no Yoshinaka. When Yoshinaka was defeated, Ninshina fled to Iga and is thought of as the first soke of the Togakure ryu. This was the 12th century and Nishina would have used a tachi and not a chokuto, and even that would have been a secondary weapon to the bow.

Now, did Nishina act like a ninja? Nope. You cannot find a single reference of him sneaking around or gathering information. (Running for his life- yes.) I can believe that he passed along some skills to his family, adopted or real. I have seen the way Japanese can keep family traditions alive and I believe that when you make a fall in status from samurai to farmer you would be eager to let your kids know that your family was not always like this.

But for centuries, where would be the use of disguise, espionage, entering enemy territory to recruit agents, etc that make up what we know the ninja to be? If there were bandits in the Iga area, maybe the descendents of Ninshina would have snuck up on them in their camp and attacked, or defended them when the raided. But these are acts that foot soldiers would be familiar with and not exclusive to ninja.

Again, no ninja bands running around. No one serving the role we call "ninja" can be verified until the late 15th century. I believe that the Togakure tradition has lessons passed down in some form from the 12th century, but the knowledge was not trapped in amber and evolved to fit the needs of the area and time. (Heck- Hatsumi has a book out on using a pistol- so the evolution continues.) So there was the Togakure tradition as far back as Nishna when he was running around on a horse using a bow, but it was probably not a "ninja" traditon until much later.

Oh, and just as a reminder to everyone, I challenged Sojobow to back up his attack on my credibility when he posted this,

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

And as we can all see, he has not posted the proof he claimed he could so far.

artyon:

 

[Genin Andrew]

"Frank Dux is using his dojo to molest students."

That got a giggle out of me Don lol.

I speak some Indonesian and very little Japanese, but some! So does these together count as a full second language?....no?...a slight drum roll?

Oh and just out of curiosity, That post Sojobow posted regarding the Koga Ryu and the "53 Families"...How good is that as a reliable source of historical information? Is it of any value Don? i cant remember whether you listed it as a reference to your "Koga Ryu" essay, just wondering of its value.

thanks
-andrew

 

[Enson]

I speak some Indonesian and very little Japanese, but some! So does these together count as a full second language?....no?...a slight drum roll?
thanks
-andrew

thats funny! :rofl: i will give you 5 claps, but you are no black belt grrasshapa!
peace

 

[heretic888]

Now even Hatsumi is lying.

Ah, personal attacks against a respected martial arts figure who isn't even here to defend himself. Nice. Good to know Dux keeps such scrupulous company for students.

To note, Hatsumi-soke is, in fact, not lying. In the parts of Essence of Ninjutsu where he gives histories of the Iga ryu and Koga ryu, he always provides qualifiers such as "according to the documents of [...]" or "some insist that this is the origin of [...]". In no way does he posture them as unquestionable historical fact. He is very simply recounting the orally transmitted stories concerning the founding of these groups (which probably weren't technical "ryuha" anyway), which were later --- much later --- put down on makimono.

At every step of the way, he discusses them as if they are legends and rumors --- which may be true, or may not be true.

Gave you contact info. Try asking them for the proof and thereby bypassing me.

This is the third time I am asking you to stop lying, sojobow.

Incidentally, haven't seen you show us anything other than these long, drawn-out, critiques on subjects no one is even discussing.

If by "long, drawn-out" you mean "descriptive, comprehensive", then sure. I am very simply pointing out the logical flimsiness of your position --- a position, which I might add, you have yet to defend effectively. All you have done is mount speculations and evasive diversions.

It is interesting that you claim these are "subjects" that no one is discussing --- must'a fooled me, Don, Kizaru, and company.

But, I think I've figured it out. Web documents like the one I pasted above are compiled by, thus far, Judans and other ranking dans in your - note my - traditional war art.

To note, a person's rank has absolutely nothing to do with their knowledge of history.

Then, they - like Carlsson, Hatsummi S. - are all accused of sojobow's digressions even up to their own Soke. Then one wonders why?

Gee. More lies and diversions. Surprise, surprise.

At no point did anyone here but yourself accuse Mr. Carlsson and Hatsumi-soke of any "digressions". The texts you reference are recountings of oral stories. Nothing more, nothing less.

The only digressions being performed here are by you, and your fanatically-driven attempts to pass off oral tradition as "history".

Don Roley wrote an essay on Koga Ryu and his essay, compared to Carlsson's, don't match and this "modern" sections keeps referring to someone other than Roley.

There is a big difference between the two. Mr. Carlsson was recounting the Koga-shu's oral history. Mr. Roley was recounting documented history (drawing upon many noted ninjutsu historians as sources). They really weren't even about the same thing.

Then, heretic888 comes to the rescue with God-knows-what-he-just-said. What did your mouth just say?

Obviously something you aren't intelligent enough to comprehend. Of course, anyone that has taken a basic Critical Thinking class would recognize the standard critiques and analyses I am providing.

Things are starting to illuminatate other motives.

The only motives being "illuminated" here are yours.

I'm just looking for these Hachi Tengu. But, I understand.

Tell yah what. I'll bite.

In the book I mentioned before, Hatsumi-soke does make reference to eight prominent families within the Koga tradition(s). Of course, they are referred to specifically as the "Strong Eight". Also, Hatsumi makes it very clear that they rose to power after the 1480's.

So... no "tengu", no 11th century, and no "sohei". But, you've got the number 8 right. But, then again, this is all still just oral history...

If I come up with anything resembling proof that the Hachi Tengu ever existed and was established prior to the 15th Century - in this case the 10th Century - not only are your whatevertheywere wrong, but also, Roley's "Koga Ryu" essay is trash.

An analysis like that demonstrates that you do not possess a basic understanding of academic criticism. If aspects of a particular work are later debunked, this does not make the work in question "trash".

Yes, the wonders of education. You should try it sometime.

*chuckle* Laterz all.

 

[heretic888]

At best, you can say that Hatsumi has laid out the traditions that would eventually evolve into what we know of as ninja after the adoption of the curved blade.

Let me give you an example. One of the oral traditons we follow is that of the Togakure ryu. It is said to have been started by Nishina Daisuke. Nishina is an established figure who was a high ranked retainer of Kiso no Yoshinaka. When Yoshinaka was defeated, Ninshina fled to Iga and is thought of as the first soke of the Togakure ryu. This was the 12th century and Nishina would have used a tachi and not a chokuto, and even that would have been a secondary weapon to the bow.

Now, did Nishina act like a ninja? Nope. You cannot find a single reference of him sneaking around or gathering information. (Running for his life- yes.) I can believe that he passed along some skills to his family, adopted or real. I have seen the way Japanese can keep family traditions alive and I believe that when you make a fall in status from samurai to farmer you would be eager to let your kids know that your family was not always like this.

But for centuries, where would be the use of disguise, espionage, entering enemy territory to recruit agents, etc that make up what we know the ninja to be? If there were bandits in the Iga area, maybe the descendents of Ninshina would have snuck up on them in their camp and attacked, or defended them when the raided. But these are acts that foot soldiers would be familiar with and not exclusive to ninja.

Again, no ninja bands running around. No one serving the role we call "ninja" can be verified until the late 15th century. I believe that the Togakure tradition has lessons passed down in some form from the 12th century, but the knowledge was not trapped in amber and evolved to fit the needs of the area and time. (Heck- Hatsumi has a book out on using a pistol- so the evolution continues.) So there was the Togakure tradition as far back as Nishna when he was running around on a horse using a bow, but it was probably not a "ninja" traditon until much later.

Very well said, Mr. Roley. Color me impressed. :asian: :asian:

As a side note (and yes I mentioned this beforehand), I have been told that Togakure ryu was originally Togakure ryu Happo Hiken and not Togakure ryu Ninjutsu. This would also paint the picture that the "ninjutsu" aspect of the tradition was not developed/adopted until later on in its history.

Well, that's what I've been told anyway. :uhyeah:

Oh and just out of curiosity, That post Sojobow posted regarding the Koga Ryu and the "53 Families"...How good is that as a reliable source of historical information? Is it of any value Don? i cant remember whether you listed it as a reference to your "Koga Ryu" essay, just wondering of its value.

Well, I've come across mention of the "53 families of Koga", along with the "45 families of Iga", in a couple of different places. Doesn't necessarily mean its historically accurate, mind you, as it may be allegorical of something else or just plain exaggerations.

Laterz all.

 

[sojobow]

Ah, personal attacks against a respected martial arts figure who isn't even here to defend himself. Nice. Good to know Dux keeps such scrupulous company for students.

To note, Hatsumi-soke is, in fact, not lying. In the parts of Essence of Ninjutsu where he gives histories of the Iga ryu and Koga ryu, he always provides qualifiers such as "according to the documents of [...]" or "some insist that this is the origin of [...]". In no way does he posture them as unquestionable historical fact. He is very simply recounting the orally transmitted stories concerning the founding of these groups (which probably weren't technical "ryuha" anyway), which were later --- much later --- put down on makimono. .

My bad, there should have been a question mark ending the sentence: "Now even Hatsumi is lying?" Even though, it still works with the period.. The remainder of both post really aren't relevant much less true but I do like the way you keep ending them with your little qualifiers like your: "but what do I knows etc."

Point is, he, in fact does. And, with all due respect, I don't hold him as the single, ultimate historian of the fighting magicians. I simply bring up the point that a few of you don't seem to take the word of your own Soke as "proof" when confronted with his own words.

Darn, now I forgot the subject of the thread. Write shorter posts please! We all see that you know some Japanese terms and am impressed. Don't have to just keep blasting us with them. This is an English Only section.

 

[heretic888]

Point is, he, in fact does. And, with all due respect, I don't hold him as the single, ultimate historian of the fighting magicians. I simply bring up the point that a few of you don't seem to take the word of your own Soke as "proof" when confronted with his own words.

Its good to see that you completely ignored all the points I made that debunk this baseless claim. The only one lying here is you.

To note, what I cited in Essence of Ninjutsu is not "the word" of Soke, but his own recounting of the oral histories of Iga ryu and Koga ryu. In no way are they presented as historical facts. But this, again, seems to be the major issue you have the conceptual inability to grasp --- that oral "history" is not documented fact.

Kinda funny how this keeps coming back to the same thing (i.e., your inability to critically analyze what other people tell you).

 

[TimoS]

Kinda funny how this keeps coming back to the same thing (i.e., your inability to critically analyze what other people tell you).

Does that really surprise anybody ?

 

[Don Roley]

Kinda funny how this keeps coming back to the same thing (i.e., your inability to critically analyze what other people tell you).

Should that not be "failure to" instead of "inability to"?

True, Sojobow has no knowledge or experience in the matter of ninjutsu. Nor has he shown a great ability to reason and make logical judgements. But it may not be that he can't understand, he is just trying to run an agenda.

After all, he has not backed up his little threat to post pictures that would damage my credibility when he said this,

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

So it is obvious he lies and is trying to destroy the reputation of others.

 

[TimoS]

After all, he has not backed up his little threat to post pictures that would damage my credibility when he said this,

What photos is he referring to ? I tried looking for that, but all he says in this thread is

Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan. So one wonders, why would Japanese present these ranks and awards to Bujinkan designated frauds? Not important to me so I need no further explanations.

Of course this isn't the first time that sojobobo says he has some information but when asked about it, he either claims that he has already answered it or just ignores the questions totally.

 

[Don Roley]

That's it TimoS.
In the first post he said "footage" and in the second he said "photos."

But you have called it very well. He is trying to ignore the fact that he said he could present something, and when called on it could not. But, it kind of shows that he is an "Agenda Troll", here not to deal honestly in the sharing of information, but to promote his own agenda and tear down those that stand in his way. In this case, every last person or tradition that exists in Japan because they all contridict what his teacher (Frank Dux the noted fraud) says.

Expect Sojobow to try to argue some point in this post without dealing with the "proof" he said he could post a link to. Maybe he will ignore this post all together. The important thing is he tried to tear down someone and will never, ever be able to post the proof he said he could. Everyone needs to keep that in mind when they read his posts. Always look for his agenda.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually, I'm still waiting on him to reply to Besters question concerning evolution of the ninja myself.

 

[Kreth]

Actually, I'm still waiting on him to reply to Besters question concerning evolution of the ninja myself.

My suggestion would be to find yourself a good book, or maybe a PS2, so you have something to do in the interim...

Jeff

 

[Enson]

My suggestion would be to find yourself a good book, or maybe a PS2, so you have something to do in the interim...

Jeff

a good long book. i recommend shogun or maybe a role playing video game.:lol: (j/k) man i crack myself up!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, definately not the "Wit and Wisdom of GW Bush" or John Kerrys "My War Years" huh? :rofl: Ok, I'll get "How to Win the Election" By Ralph Nader.

 

[Enson]

So, definately not the "Wit and Wisdom of GW Bush" or John Kerrys "My War Years" huh? :rofl: Ok, I'll get "How to Win the Election" By Ralph Nader.

that will work! hee hee! :rofl: try the whole bible. lots of books and chapters under one cover.
peace

 

[sojobow]

Actually, I'm still waiting on him to reply to Besters question concerning evolution of the ninja myself.

Actually, I've read the thread 4 or 5 times and couldn't figure out what was being asked or implied. confused, so I just left well enough alone. If you can filter the thread and present the question in simplicity, maybe I can answer. Then, maybe not.

 

[Enson]

Actually, I've read the thread 4 or 5 times and couldn't figure out what was being asked or implied. confused, so I just left well enough alone. If you can filter the thread and present the question in simplicity, maybe I can answer. Then, maybe not.

i have to admit i don't remember what the question was exactly.:idunno: