I 'think' the question being asked is if there is a relationship between the origins of the original ninja families and the Emishi. I could be wrong though as it does seem a bit 'left field to me.
New Implications on Ninjitsu(ism)
- Thread starter sojobow
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Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
Kaiths right. RIF. You have the wild theories on origins.
So, there is one that may help, or hurt you. I honestly don't know which.
You mentioned a Chinese connection I believe, so, there is a reference point. I don't know the dates, but some information may be of assistance.
Sometimes, on needs the DNA, othertimes, the memory is enough.
So, there is one that may help, or hurt you. I honestly don't know which.
You mentioned a Chinese connection I believe, so, there is a reference point. I don't know the dates, but some information may be of assistance.
Sometimes, on needs the DNA, othertimes, the memory is enough.
Bester,
You are asking for amusement sake, correct? There is no way we can take the theories by Sojobow seriously. Your humorous thread on the origins of ninja made more sense.
Me, I am still waiting for him to fill his promise he made to post the pictures if I said the event did not take place. Becasue they did not and he lied about it.
You are asking for amusement sake, correct? There is no way we can take the theories by Sojobow seriously. Your humorous thread on the origins of ninja made more sense.
Me, I am still waiting for him to fill his promise he made to post the pictures if I said the event did not take place. Becasue they did not and he lied about it.
You do know that most of what you presented in the abovementioned post is incorrect, do you not? Sounds good, pretty well written, showed your inclination to utilize those "Japanese terms" but, the text is incorrect. But that's not the point. Seems I just keep finding outside sources that agree with my "fanticies." You didn't like the post noting Hatsumi Sensei as a one who added to the conversations, well, here is another of another of another:heretic888 said:
Just connect the dots:
http://www.hikyaku.com/cgi-bin/mainword?histg+Heian_period+dico/hisgifg
Heian period
alternative words: Heianjidai, Heian reign, Heian jidai, Heian era, Heanjidai, Hean period, Hean jidai
keywords: epoch
related topics: Genji monogatari, Kokinwakashu, Heishi, Taira no Kiyomori, Genji, Fujiwara family, Heiankyo, Shoen, Taira no Masakado
related web sites: http://homepage1.nifty.com/shiun-sai/, http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~yae-sou/, http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~heian/
explanation: It designates the long period which spans from 794 when Kyoto became Japanese capital until 1192 when the political center of Japan was shifted to Kamakura. The first half period is rather a prolongation of Nara period and Kyoto's aristocrats were controlling still the political power, while an instability had appeared in the second half period with an emergence of samurai clans who not only took gradually the power from the former but fought one against another (battle between Heishi and Genji).
Note numerous Wars before, during and after.
Yamabushi
alternative words: Yama-bushi, Yama bushi
keywords: ninja, religion
related topics: Shugendo, Heian period, Ninja
explanation: Literally those who sleep in mountains, they belong to Shugendo order which consists to practice austerities in mountains in order to get magic power. They are easily recognizable by their dress: a small black cap (tokin), a checkered kimono (suzukake), a Buddhist rosary (nenju), a conch-shell trumpet (horagai), a staff with rings (shakujo). During middle ages, Yamabushi became one of ninja's preferred disguise methods because it allowed them to move freely without provoking any suspicion.
Ninja's? during the Heian period? Not again!!!!!
Ninjutsu
alternative words: Ninjutu, Ninjitsu, Ninjitu, Shinobi, Ninpo, Ninpou
keywords: martial art, ninja
related topics: Ninja, Sengoku period, Heian period, Onmyodo
related web sites: http://www.y-tec.com/ninja/index2.html, http://www.mpd.co.jp/net/ninja/japanese/menu.html
explanation: One of the Japanese martial arts. Originated from Onmyodo of Heian period, it had been associated with a magic like prestidigitation or hypnoses and the medical knowledge. With a development of samurai society, more violent and combative technique had been introduced. During a civil war period of the 16th century (Sengoku period), the specialists of those arts (Ninja) had been highly appreciated and the famous schools of Ninjutsu like Koga and Iga had been prosperous.
Onmyodo
alternative words: Onmyo-do, Onmyo do, Onmyoudo, Onmyou-do, Onmyou do
keywords: china, mystery, ninja, philosophy, religion
related topics: In-yo go-gyo setsu, Abe no Seimei, Heian period, Ninjutsu, Oni, Fusui
related web sites: http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~skydog/, http://www.people.or.jp/~seimei/
explanation: Astrology of Chinese origin. It interprets every human activity and fate with an astrology based on Inyo gogyo setsu It had been introduced into Japan in the 7th century by Buddhist priests, but unable to build complex astrological apparatus, only the divination branch had known a significant development. After Heian period, it has been degenerated to simple popular superstitions. Abeno Seimei (921-1005) is the most famous specialist of this discipline.
(Lets not get into Abeno Seimei)
Also, you should study more on the subject of oral transmissions in regards to the Ninja. It is written, in all of Japan, that much of the actual knowledge of the Ninja "shall be passed only orally from father to son or teacher to student." Thus, in the war arts of the Ninja, the most important elements shall not be passed on any other way than oral transmission.
If you are in Japan, setting at a computer, is not this information in Japan?" You need to open your eyes and give me a break and consider what it is we are discussing here and stop trying to impress us/me with your yolomoto gibberish. The Ninja did write maps, but not much else.
sojobow said:
Ok, enough dancing around. Time for a decision and a precedent being set.
The question is do the owners and moderators want to set the precedent that someone can make comments that degrade another's reputation and then be able to refuse to back up those accusations when challenged.
Now, if the moderators do not want that, then it seems that Sojobow should be forced to back up his comment that he could post certain pictures that would contridict what I say, thus damaging my reputation. If he can not, then he should be punished in some way- preferably by banishment.
If the moderators and owners say it is acceptable on martialtalk.com for someone to say they could prove something that would damage another's reputation, but will not, then a precedent will be set and others will probably follow. Do they want that?
I think a choice and a precedent must be made right here and now. Make Sojobow prove his claim and post the pictures, or let it be known that people do not have to back up the damaging comments they make about others.
2 things:
1:
Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning.
I suggest all those involved review the rules.
2: If people are going to continue to debate history, I strongly suggest revising their writing styles to conform to college term paper standards. That means, citing your sources, and being pretty damn complete about it.
In simple english - make a claim, back it up. If you don't wish to do so, do not make that claim.
I do trust that is clear enough?
1:
Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning.
I suggest all those involved review the rules.
2: If people are going to continue to debate history, I strongly suggest revising their writing styles to conform to college term paper standards. That means, citing your sources, and being pretty damn complete about it.
In simple english - make a claim, back it up. If you don't wish to do so, do not make that claim.
I do trust that is clear enough?
Further: the request for "Banishment" publically does not seem like the best forum for discussing another member. I feel as one of the staff at MT, that this should be discussed via email or PM with the Administrators, rather than airing such dirty laundry in public.
-Michael
MT SMod
-Michael
MT SMod
heretic888
Senior Master
I also feel that discussions concerning "banishment" should be conducted privately...
Nope, not really.
*nods* You've got a point there, Mr. Roley. Such speculations are further supported by how he constantly brings up unrelated subjects (such as "define a ninja!") on numerous threads. It gets quite annoying.
I submit, sojobow, that you are a bold-faced liar (not a radical accusation at this point). I challenge you to prove any of the claim you just made with reputable sources.
A word of advice: online Japanese dictionaries does not constitute a reputable "outside source".
No. I much didn't like you misquoting Hatsumi-soke to validate your delusions, nor did I like you calling him a liar on a later post. Of course, yet again, all this has to do with your own shortcomings --- not Hatsumi's.
Gee, way to misinterpret what was actually said. Again.
What I actually said before was that, after the feuds between the North and South courts in the 14th century, Japan saw a relatively long stretch of peace (until the Onin no Ran in the mid-15th century). In no way did I say there were no wars "before, during, and after" the Heian Period.
The point being that, during that stretch of peace and stability, there would have been no need for groups like the Iga-gumi and Koga-gumi. It would be quite logical, on the other hand, that the warriors of Iga and Koga organized themselves into mercenary guerilla groups in reaction to the rather bloody Onin no Ran (to protect the interests of their regions).
I suggest re-reading your own sources, sojobow. The Heian period was not during "the middle ages".
Ugh... again, Onmyodo is the tradition listed as coming from the Heian period (which is not debated). Not ninjutsu.
Once again, Chinese elements influenced a lot of Japanese traditions --- including their written language. That does not make them "Chinese".
Once again, a non-argument. This is no way proves or supports anything you have claimed, which is that the Koga "ninja" were militarily active prior to the 1400's.
This isn't a matter of orally transmitted stories being accurate or not --- but of an absolute lack of evidence within documented history itself. Its futile to claim that the Koga-gumi were organized into these commando groups, involved in Japan's wars, when not only is there no proof of this --- but there weren't even any major wars in the period you claim they were involved in!
Apparently not.
Notice, sojobow, how you have not once utilized Japanese sources to vindicate your arguments. Your sources are always American and/or English, always online, and sometimes don't even say what you claim they said.
Yet again, this has nothing to do with what the "ninja" did or did not write. It has to do with no one else noticing them until the late-1400's.
Until you start providing reputable sources and evidence to back up your rather dubious claims, sojobow, expect to be treated like an agenda troll.
Laterz.
Nope, not really.
*nods* You've got a point there, Mr. Roley. Such speculations are further supported by how he constantly brings up unrelated subjects (such as "define a ninja!") on numerous threads. It gets quite annoying.
I submit, sojobow, that you are a bold-faced liar (not a radical accusation at this point). I challenge you to prove any of the claim you just made with reputable sources.
A word of advice: online Japanese dictionaries does not constitute a reputable "outside source".
No. I much didn't like you misquoting Hatsumi-soke to validate your delusions, nor did I like you calling him a liar on a later post. Of course, yet again, all this has to do with your own shortcomings --- not Hatsumi's.
Gee, way to misinterpret what was actually said. Again.
What I actually said before was that, after the feuds between the North and South courts in the 14th century, Japan saw a relatively long stretch of peace (until the Onin no Ran in the mid-15th century). In no way did I say there were no wars "before, during, and after" the Heian Period.
The point being that, during that stretch of peace and stability, there would have been no need for groups like the Iga-gumi and Koga-gumi. It would be quite logical, on the other hand, that the warriors of Iga and Koga organized themselves into mercenary guerilla groups in reaction to the rather bloody Onin no Ran (to protect the interests of their regions).
I suggest re-reading your own sources, sojobow. The Heian period was not during "the middle ages".
Ugh... again, Onmyodo is the tradition listed as coming from the Heian period (which is not debated). Not ninjutsu.
Once again, Chinese elements influenced a lot of Japanese traditions --- including their written language. That does not make them "Chinese".
Once again, a non-argument. This is no way proves or supports anything you have claimed, which is that the Koga "ninja" were militarily active prior to the 1400's.
This isn't a matter of orally transmitted stories being accurate or not --- but of an absolute lack of evidence within documented history itself. Its futile to claim that the Koga-gumi were organized into these commando groups, involved in Japan's wars, when not only is there no proof of this --- but there weren't even any major wars in the period you claim they were involved in!
Apparently not.
Notice, sojobow, how you have not once utilized Japanese sources to vindicate your arguments. Your sources are always American and/or English, always online, and sometimes don't even say what you claim they said.
Yet again, this has nothing to do with what the "ninja" did or did not write. It has to do with no one else noticing them until the late-1400's.
Until you start providing reputable sources and evidence to back up your rather dubious claims, sojobow, expect to be treated like an agenda troll.
Laterz.
Ok, we are all in agreement that Sojobow started this thread to push his agenda and distort the truth. Like many other threads he has started or participated in, it has served no purpose other than attracting lightning bolts and flames. No one is taking Sojobow seriously anymore. He is gone. So can we shut down the freaking thread already?!?!?!?
heretic888
Senior Master
Heh, sorry about that, Don. :asian:
I've been "out of the loop" for the past couple of days --- y'know, Hurricane Jeanne and all --- and I was unaware of sojobow being suspended, or kizaru's hilarious refutation of his silly claims in another thread (nice one, kizaru).
It may be fun to just keep the thread open, though. Y'know, for kicks.
Laterz.
I've been "out of the loop" for the past couple of days --- y'know, Hurricane Jeanne and all --- and I was unaware of sojobow being suspended, or kizaru's hilarious refutation of his silly claims in another thread (nice one, kizaru).
It may be fun to just keep the thread open, though. Y'know, for kicks.
Laterz.
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