New Implications on Ninjitsu(ism)

[Genin Andrew]

"difference between "Ninja" and "Ninjutsu." Reading recently that to call a Samurai a "Ninja" would cause you to lose your head as the Samurai considered it an insult to be called "Ninja." But, the Samurai, supposedly, practiced Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. Thus, it seems that one could practice "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" without being a "Ninja." More of my "rambling" don't you think. But, try and figure that one out. I am."

No offence intended, but i hope you had a few dinks down when you wrote most of that...A "Ninja" in my opinion is one who practices,ninjutsu and follows Ninpo as their "way". Ninjutsu is the yang or yo aspect to their 'way' it is the techniques and the responses. Ninpo being the yin or in aspect being the phylosophical and spiritual side which also flows into ninjutsu to assist perfection and understanding of techniques. A 'ninja' or 'shinobi' or iga/koga no bushi or whatever is the warrior figure of the art, the individual who encapsulates all that is Ninpo/Ninjutsu.

Of course a Samurai would get a little ticked off if you called him a ninja, its like calling a nazi a Jew (well thats little extreme) but it made the point. History has recorded instances where some Samurai have turned ninja and vice versa,also that samurai have hired ninja for various reasons. But i'm not sure about Samurai practising ninjutsu, although it depends what you refer to when you say ninjutsu. I think it would be a slight violation if a samurai adopted ninpo and the ninja way whilst under the bushido code of honour.Just my opinion.

much respect
-andrew

 

[sojobow]

"difference between "Ninja" and "Ninjutsu." Reading recently that to call a Samurai a "Ninja" would cause you to lose your head as the Samurai considered it an insult to be called "Ninja." But, the Samurai, supposedly, practiced Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. Thus, it seems that one could practice "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" without being a "Ninja." More of my "rambling" don't you think. But, try and figure that one out. I am."

It is something to think about. Still reading the article so it may make some sense upon finishing it. It infers a very interesting difference between an actual Ninja and that of someone "studying or practicing dojo" Ninjutsu / Ninjitsu.

No offence intended, but i hope you had a few dinks down when you wrote most of that...A "Ninja" in my opinion is one who practices,ninjutsu and follows Ninpo as their "way". Ninjutsu is the yang or yo aspect to their 'way' it is the techniques and the responses. Ninpo being the yin or in aspect being the phylosophical and spiritual side which also flows into ninjutsu to assist perfection and understanding of techniques. A 'ninja' or 'shinobi' or iga/koga no bushi or whatever is the warrior figure of the art, the individual who encapsulates all that is Ninpo/Ninjutsu.

Doesn't seem like something I would have written with or without a few dinks - or is it 'drinks?' Thanks for the definition summary. The more I read about this relationship between Ninja, shinobi, Ninjutsu, Ninho, history, the more I'm starting to believe that one can be Ninja without practicing Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu. We can practice in our schools for years, have the highest ranks, a credible number of students, all kinds of certifications authorizing us to teach, have successfull seminars on the subject and on, and on. But, having and practicing all of this does not make us Ninja. The Spirit, Mind and Body is only the beginning. Being Ninja is more important.

Of course a Samurai would get a little ticked off if you called him a ninja, its like calling a nazi a Jew (well thats little extreme) but it made the point. History has recorded instances where some Samurai have turned ninja and vice versa,also that samurai have hired ninja for various reasons. But i'm not sure about Samurai practising ninjutsu, although it depends what you refer to when you say ninjutsu. I think it would be a slight violation if a samurai adopted ninpo and the ninja way whilst under the bushido code of honour.Just my opinion. much respect -andrew

There are a number of sections defining the Ninja that a Samurai could perform without violation of the bushido code. Even in today's era of Neo-ninjitsu, there are certain individuals training in this martial art that are having problems with their own religion while training in the art. Ninja found that they could practice different religions and / or "codes" simultaneously.

 

[Genin Andrew]

"drinks" is correct...

 

[BoneBreaker]

Ah, but they can be empirically observed to exist in the virtual reality of the internet, whether one believes in them or not.

That was sarcastically prolific. :flushed:

 

[sojobow]

Talking about Korean influences. Wish I'd have read this thread when everyone kept posting how unJapanese this this subject is:

Start on about 3 or 4. Entire thread is good too. Korean Ninja, Chinese Ninja? Even found an article talking of Russian Ninja. Ooooooops.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=270371#post270371

 

[althaur]

Ummmm, that does absolutely nothing to help your rants. The Russian was a student of the Bujinkan. Doesn't make your assinine comment about ninjutsu traveling through Russia accurate. And the Korean link is some knucklehead saying the "Sulsa" are ninja and guessing about history. Didn't help you a bit. Wanna try again???? Stretch a little further. C'mon.

 

[sojobow]

Ummmm, that does absolutely nothing to help your rants. The Russian was a student of the Bujinkan.

So now, you can see through my computer into my office and know that the article I am reading, authored by a Russian dealing with Ninja in Russian territory during the periods we're discussing, is discussing Russian History. You can see through my computer screen? I didn't notice anyone mentioning Russian. Must have missed that post. You mean someone else made such a statement?

Doesn't make your assinine comment about ninjutsu traveling through Russia accurate. And the Korean link is some knucklehead saying the "Sulsa" are ninja and guessing about history. Didn't help you a bit. Wanna try again???? Stretch a little further. C'mon.

Nope. Said all I intended to. Can't find any truthfull answers here. Only post like your own. Why the inferiority complex you're displaying is beyond me. Someone challenges your status quo and you attack back with "rants, assinine comment, knucklehead, guessing." ADD SOMETHING

 

[althaur]

Talking about Korean influences. Wish I'd have read this thread when everyone kept posting how unJapanese this this subject is:

Start on about 3 or 4. Entire thread is good too. Korean Ninja, Chinese Ninja? Even found an article talking of Russian Ninja. Ooooooops.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=270371#post270371

What did this add??? It added conjecture. It didn't add anything to your argument.

Please, if you have found an article dealing with ninjutsu in Russia, share. I'm sure all of us would like to read it. However, your Russian comment above pops up after you read the linked thread and it has a quote in there from someone with a Russian name. You act as if the ramblings of someone who is applying his own opinions as fact somehow vindicate what you have been saying all along. Doesn't help your case at all.

 

[sojobow]

What did this add??? It added conjecture. It didn't add anything to your argument.

Please, if you have found an article dealing with ninjutsu in Russia, share. I'm sure all of us would like to read it. However, your Russian comment above pops up after you read the linked thread and it has a quote in there from someone with a Russian name. You act as if the ramblings of someone who is applying his own opinions as fact somehow vindicate what you have been saying all along. Doesn't help your case at all.

a) I didn't present an arguement. I only presented a possibility and asked a question;
b) Have no idea about the poster with Russian name and its relationship to what you're trying to prove;
c) what case?

Actually, what helps "my case" is when I ask a question to a search engine and get 25,000 hits.

 

[Kreth]

Actually, what helps "my case" is when I ask a question to a search engine and get 25,000 hits.

What would help "your case" is a daily regimen of Ridalin.
Just because something is on the internet does not make it true. Just the other day I was reading the rantings of this guy who called the F-16 a "ninja weapon." Oh wait, nevermind...

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

What would help "your case" is a daily regimen of Ridalin.
Just because something is on the internet does not make it true. Just the other day I was reading the rantings of this guy who called the F-16 a "ninja weapon." Oh wait, nevermind...Jeff

Ok, I'll try this one more time.
"Originally Posted by sojobow
Actually, what helps "my case" is when I ask a question to a search engine and get 25,000 hits."

Note the ".....when I ask a question......" True or false or no such animal, I get an answer, usually related to the question I asked. And sure an F-XX or B-XX can easily be classified as a "Ninja Weapon." I'd like to meet the guy who said this. Seems he has vision and actually knows what being "Ninja" might be in today's teachings of Ninjitsuism. May have something to do with Sun Wu's thirty-something Attacks by stratagem.

What's Ridalin? Can you send me some?

 

[Genin Andrew]

It is a common weakness when defending yourself to counter a question with another question. ie. Kreth asks for references so you say "where are yours?"

Not making a personal attack on you, I just dont think (in my view) that you answered him well enough, do you? You seem to cop a lot of flack about your lack of references and you may feel that you are continiously attacked at the throat. And i guess that if you are asked for references then its only fair that others do the same.

The difference is however, that alot of what you say is "unheard of" and doesnt go down too well with what other people believe. And this is by no means 'your problem'. But when people ask for references either out of interest of your comments or to put you on the spot to see if you can back yourself up its a good idea to do so.

It just helps the credibility of what you say, because untill you have a little bit of backing behind your statements then very few will bother to read your posts properly, they just skim through for cheap laughs. So i ask to get some references coming so we can learn more from your point of view and understand why you believe what you do and then you might find that people will be a lot more productive and this thread will be alot more educational for all of us. Can you do that?

much respect
-andrew

 

[sojobow]

It is a common weakness when defending yourself to counter a question with another question. ie. Kreth asks for references so you say "where are yours?" -andrew

You're kind of new here when it comes to sojobow. sojobow has gone through over 2,000 post with these Bujinkans/e-budo brotherhood and sojobow doesn't wish to make it another 2,000. In these more than 2,000 posts, sojobow was the only one presenting references. sojobow asked a simple question of them from the very beginning: "what will you do with the information I present to you." My question was completely disregarded. Then, bless their hearts, they decided that they would only accept a reference from ONE OF THEIR OWN SOURCES. So, sojobow started quoting Hatsumi Sensei. Yep, you got it. Unacceptable source to them. So, long story made short, they really don't want sojobow's sources, will not accept them even when its their own system's founder and, worst of all, when they do "check my sources" and find that the source is Sun Tzu, Mushashi, Draeger, Koryu.com, the truth, etc., they NEVER come back and acknowledge the information as being correct. So, you will excuse sojobow for asking them for THEIR sources (which they never present). It's their turn.

You might also have noticed that they usually ask me to give them a source of information regarding some point that I never expressed to begin with. They re-write/re-invent or re-interpret my statement, then ask me to provide them with a source, not for my own statement, by a source for THEIR statement. Their technique usually works real well because they know I'm not going to waste my time proving something that I never said to begin with. Then someone like you comes alone and makes it look as though I'm the one avoiding the question (which usually will get changed when answered).

Its their turn. "sojobow" mentioned to assist those not knowing how to spell.

 

[Kreth]

In these more than 2,000 posts, sojobow was the only one presenting references.

In a word, ********. You posted a list of titles that are common martial arts books, and had nothing to do with your diatribe. Try again.

Edit: the word masked by the profanity filter has to do with bovine excretory functions...

Jeff

 

[Kreth]

And sure an F-XX or B-XX can easily be classified as a "Ninja Weapon." I'd like to meet the guy who said this.

My bad, it was an F-17. Sojobow, meet sojobow ...

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

It is a common weakness when defending yourself to counter a question with another question. ie. Kreth asks for references so you say "where are yours?"

Now that I think on it a bit more, here's a recent example - Hope this will help you understand post #35 even better since you are the example.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16560&page=3&pp=15

8/17 Post 41. Genin says in part. ...You have said very little on martialtalk and other forums that i agree with,almost nothing. Not only because it challenges my own knowledge but because you have not once 'elaborated' on your comments or the "history" that you have told me....." and ...."You have NOT ONCE given me any answers to any of my questions nor have you elaborated on your comments (which i also asked for). To me this is quite disrespectful as you blatantly ignore me and then act as though you have nothing against me and respect me and my knowledge....

The very next post was useless but I responed in Post #43 ending with ".......Now that I think on it, if I get the time, I'll go over each and every one of your posts and prove to you that I've answered your questions. I'll definately look forward to your response to that......"

Note Kreth's input in #44..."sojobow was given the nickname Snowjob to reflect his constant dodging of questions amid claims that he's answered all of them...."

Note Kreth's input in #50 ...."Don't hold your breath..."

Note your response to Kreth in #51 ".....Maybe the morning will awake Sojobow and bring some answers...maybe not....."

Note sojobow's response in #52... an itemized list of every question you've asked me (with post number), an itemized list of every agreeement you've noted in 40 posts and a complete answeras promised in my post #43.

Well, needless to say, to save the face of ignorance and non-humility, Kreth doesn't like my list of 4 or 5 books mentioned in one section of one post out of 40. Says I didn't include the page number, Ibids, DOB, colors o f books or some other nonsense.

Then, I read the following in your post #55....."but Sojobow if you feel you have answered my questions then that is fine, I wasnt too serious about getting answers from you as they are obviously beyond your research.I am not your enemy either,just dont like reading rubbish."

So, see what I mean. I answer,re-answer, re-re-answer and what do I get: "...Genin - I wasnt too serious about getting answers....[/b] so, what happened to "Damn, sojobow did answer all of my question or Damn, sojobow did say quite a number of statements that I posted that I agreed with him" or damn, sojobow took all his time, went back over every previous q&a (40 post) to answer." So, I'll reward his honesty and effort (since I am unable to say that I was wrong and sojobow was correct) by just saying "I wasn't too serious."

 

[sojobow]

In a word, ********. You posted a list of titles that are common martial arts books, and had nothing to do with your diatribe. Try again.

Edit: the word masked by the profanity filter has to do with bovine excretory functions...

Jeff

Actually, my list of titles far exceeds your input to the subject of the threads. You, and your student, should just move on and take your bovine excretions with you. by all means, stay if you have knowledge of the implications of china and Korea on Japanese martial arts. If not, well.....

Hope your bovine excretions subside soon.

 

[Kreth]

Well, needless to say, to save the face of ignorance and non-humility, Kreth doesn't like my list of 4 or 5 books mentioned in one section of one post out of 40. Says I didn't include the page number, Ibids, DOB, colors o f books or some other nonsense.

Any moron can list a bunch a martial arts titles with page numbers and say they support his argument. The general public won't bother to read through the entire book in question. Again, nice try.

Jeff

 

[sojobow]

Any moron can list a bunch a martial arts titles with page numbers and say they support his argument. The general public won't bother to read through the entire book in question. Again, nice try.Jeff

You're right about the "Again, nice try" because this is about the 5th or 6th time you've brought up the same post posted about 80 posts ago. Get over it. Incidentally, in one of the book references, I did cite the page number. Did you at least look up that particular citation? Did it answer the question? But, we expect you to complain a 7th time about the same post. Redundancy is cool with me. Working on my second red dot. Anyway, since you can't answer the last question, try this one. Tell us what you think it inferrs.

Thread subject Post #1.

Food for thought. You may have to read between the lines a little, however, I find interesting the references to migration, anthropological, linquistic, and genetic studies, the house of Paekchae, racism, lineage, it's effect on budo etc. It hasn't stopped as of yet. Have to watch that mitochondral dna stuff. Makes it necessary to re-write or bujitsu history a tad.

see thread on "fresh air.", Search for a discussion on Eta and the people Hinin or Hinan. We may be getting closer to who the real people of the Shinobi are. IMOHO, they're still here. The migrations have not ceased.


http://www.bstkd.com/culturejap.htm

Japanese Culture


Culture Links
The history of Japan is still poorly understood. Many Japanese still believe in the mythological origins of their people and island, and resist current anthropological, linguistic, and genetic studies which seem to demonstrating successive migrations from the Korean peninsula, taking place over two millennium. Some current research, for instance, suggests that the royal house of Paekchae, a Korean nation that succumbed during civil strife around 600 a.d., may have migrated to Japan, becoming the Japanese ruling family. DNA testing and linguistics seems to confirm a relationship. Similarly, little research is devoted to the displacement by these migrations of the Caucasian-appearing race that was indigenous to Japan, the Ainu, which still exists in northern Japan.

Since we know that the Sulsa were involved with the expatriation of the House of Paekchae, and according to traditional japanese history, Ninja did not exist at this time in Japan, what do you think happened to the Kwarang Sulsa coming to Japan in 600 a.d.? Why, according to traditional ninjutsu history in Japan, did it take another 800 to 1000 years for Ninjutsu to develope when it had already been developed in Korea 800 years prior and China 1,700 years prior. To clarify my question, consider that the word Ninjutsu only refers to the philosophy and the profession now (in 2004 FY) identified with the what is commonly know as the profession of the Ninja.

 

[Seig]

Keep the Discussion polite and respectfull.
Seig
MT Operations Admin