New Implications on Ninjitsu(ism)

[Don Roley]

And for those of us that know, The straight bladed katana definately did exist.

So you are saying that you are one of the ones "that know"?

OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now.

Let me ask you this, did the US Army Rangers that went ashore at Normandy use the same flintlocks that Roger's Rangers used in the French- Indian war? (PS- both the French and the Indians lost.)

Yes there was 200 years difference between the two wars, but you are talking about over 500 years between the abandoning of the double edged, straight bladed sword and the rise of the class we now know as ninja.

Oh yeah, there were people living in Iga 500 years before beggining of what we call the age of wars in Japan. But they can not be called ninja anymore than the guys running around in Bronze age England with pointy objects can be likened to the knights that we know of from after Billy did his number at Hastings.

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough. Within 50 years you stop seeing references and illustrations of the old style swords on the battlefield and everyone using the newer, curved katana/tachi style. The straight blade was kept only by members of the Imperial court much like the royalty of England is proceeeded by a ceremonial mace even today.

If you are trying to say that someone kept a sword for 500 hundred years before using it, I say you should ask anyone who has owned a bike in Japan and see why they call this place the land of perpetual humidity. Everything rusts. And metal was kind of rare a thousand years ago. Some of the oldest buildings in Japan's first permanent capital at Nara are made without a single metal nail. So, the idea that someone who was so without resources that they could not get a new sword, or melt the old one down into something more usefull could somehow keep a blade intact for a longer time than there have been white men living in your country is just plain silly.

And as for you appeal to the authority of Stephen Hayes, have you read his fifth book from Ohara Publications? In it he clearly states that the idea of the ninja using a straight bladed sword is a myth. It is only in his early books that he says they used one. Why? Well, humans make mistakes. Hayes is human, thus Hayes makes mistakes. So his early works may have said that the ninja used swords based on a misunderstanding on his part from a TV series popular at the time he was living here. Maybe not. The important thing from your standpoint is that he changed his opinion when he got more knowledgeable.

When you get to Japanese sources on the sword, you can not find one that says that the ninja used a straight bladed sword. Hatsumi does not say it, and neither does other sources such as Okuse, Nawa, Nakajima, etc. We have gone over this time and time again. The ninja did not use straight bladed swords. Show me a Japanese source that says they did.

 

[Kizaru]

did the US Army Rangers that went ashore at Normandy use the same flintlocks that Roger's Rangers used in the French- Indian war?

Huah!

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough. Within 50 years you stop seeing references and illustrations of the old style swords on the battlefield and everyone using the newer, curved katana/tachi style.

If you are trying to say that someone kept a sword for 500 hundred years before using it, I say you should ask anyone who has owned a bike in Japan and see why they call this place the land of perpetual humidity. Everything rusts. And metal was kind of rare a thousand years ago.

But what about the "chokuto" style? I've heard that some ryu ha, like the Shinkage ryu still use them. I was under the impression that people who were not Samurai and not allowed to carry swords were still allowed to carry a single chokuto to defend themselves, and that this was the prefered "sidearm" of travelers. Not saying it was being exclusively used by Ninja, but that something similiar to it possibley did exist.

 

[Enson]

So i think due to the lack of "concrete evidence" for and against we shouldn't be saying "purely hollywood" was responsible. Even the Bujinkan use the Ninjato...I just think we need to be a little more open to possibility.

thanks
-andrew

i think i will agree with that.

i think "the earth is flat" theory just is a bit shadey. i imagine they could have used the ninjato (or its likeness) as with more hanbo techniques. a bo with a blade maybe? who knows for sure?:idunno: all history are a bunch of stories and documents passed down. no one will know for sure what went on 500 years ago because we didn't live in that time. its natural to assume certain events happened but not even hatsumi is that old to know for sure.

OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now.

that was funny!

peace

 

[sojobow]

So you are saying that you are one of the ones "that know"?

OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now.

Great

Yes there was 200 years difference between the two wars, but you are talking about over 500 years between the abandoning of the double edged, straight bladed sword and the rise of the class we now know as ninja.

I drew a horizontal timeline about 9 inches long with a mark every inch along the line to indicate 100 years. Started on the left with The Yamabushi Karuma Hachi Ryu Kooga Period/Heian Period (800 a.d). All the way to the extreme left end (ooops, I mean extreme right end), I put the Yakuza/Meij Restoration (1860 a.d.). I think the "Ninja" could be found all along this timeline. But, Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu could be found starting somewhere near the right-end. The "Ninja" consistantly evolved all along the timeline but the Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Ryu didn't come until hundreds of years later. Like to know where you place these two events.

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough.

Could be true too. I also heard that the curve in the Katana happened by forging accident once developed in China and learned by the Japanese. The heating-then-quenching process (or however they do it) resulted in the blade having a curve. Japanese said: "hey, this crooked curved thingy works well. Its like having a Jian and a broadsword all in one. See! you can stabb/thrust and even swing it. Lets use it." Just what I heard so don't hurt us now.

I'd judge this a 10-9 round for Genin Andrew. Close round one, but I think Genin wins.

 

[heretic888]

No. But I do wish we knew where the first "Hollywood version" came from. I'd like to know where the producer or researcher got his information. Something like the research done for The Last Samurai's Ninja Attack. Where/whom did they base there depiction on.

Hayes gave his speculations on where the first "straight-bladed ninja-to" came from in Ninja Vol. 5: Lore of the Shinobi Warriors. He seems to think it was a novelty/exaggeration of the Kabuki theater.

Then again, he could have been the one that come up with the idea.

My "real historical weapon" has to do with "a straight-blade" sword (Jian etc).

Now why would practitioners of a Japanese koryu know anything about swords used used in China and Tibet??

Also, what I'd like to know is, in a real-life fight today, would a Kan use a "Hollywood Version Ninja-To" if one was just leaning against the wall when the bad guys jumped him? Or, would he say something like: "I (an X-Kan) wouldn't be caught dead with a fake Hollywood weapon if my life depended on it? Just a thought in this modern world.

My, my... what a lovely little diversion. What, praytell, does that querry have to do with the supposed historicity of the weapon in question??

The ninjato is a common weapon of the ninja in hollywood, and yes hollywood did make the sword famous...and fictional, regarding association with ninjutsu. But then why does Hayes make reference to the Ninjato in his books?

Could be because he's not perfect.

Why does the Ninjato have a place in the Iga Ninja museum?

Could be because they're not perfect. Also, as Don pointed out in another thread, the "straight" ninja-to in the museum are pre-manufactured props that you could buy in any martial arts store in your city.

Are you saying that a straight bladed katana never existed?

A straight-bladed katana?? Nope. A katana, by definition, is not straight-bladed.

The chokuto design?

A choku-to is not a katana. It was also used centuries before the Iga-shu and Koga-shu popped up on the historical record, and not during.

I drew a horizontal timeline about 9 inches long with a mark every inch along the line to indicate 100 years. Started on the left with The Yamabushi Karuma Hachi Ryu Kooga Period/Heian Period (800 a.d). All the way to the extreme left end (ooops, I mean extreme right end), I put the Yakuza/Meij Restoration (1860 a.d.). I think the "Ninja" could be found all along this timeline. But, Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu could be found starting somewhere near the right-end. The "Ninja" consistantly evolved all along the timeline but the Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Ryu didn't come until hundreds of years later. Like to know where you place these two events.

You can place the "ninja" wherever you want on this timeline --- doesn't change the fact that no one made a peep about the Iga-shu or Koga-shu until the mid-1400's. At the earliest.

A little helpful reminder: oral "history" is not documented fact.

Laterz.

 

[sojobow]

You can place the "ninja" wherever you want on this timeline --- doesn't change the fact that no one made a peep about the Iga-shu or Koga-shu until the mid-1400's. At the earliest. A little helpful reminder: oral "history" is not documented fact. Laterz.

Well now, don't bet you lunch money on this little nugget. Why not just say "no one {that I agree with} made a peep...." Or something to that effect. But, none of us are perfect. I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far. Got this from a source you've used before too. So, if they "organized" around 950 a.d., they surely had to exist before then as ninja. Kooga is a family name drawn from somewhere!

 

[Kizaru]

I'd judge this a 10-9 round for Genin Andrew. Close round one, but I think Genin wins.

I'd have to judge it 9-1 in favor of Don Roley. The only mistake Don Roley has made is wasting his time trying to explain reality to a couple of attention deprived space cadets. Well, Genin and Sojobow have won the attention their parents didn't give them, but at the expense of looking like fools in a public forum.

 

[sojobow]

Now I'm hurt. Wonder if I got two more points with this one. I'll look and see and tell you later. Oh, gee, thanks, at least you gave Genin and I one point. Thanx. Hope your day gets better. Feel Better!

 

[Don Roley]

I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far.

Sigh.....

Here we go again. I will now state that I have never run across that reference in any Japanese source AFAIK and ask Sojobow for his sources. He will respond with evasions, insults and disruptive behavior.

Some of us will try to bring the subject back to trying to determine whether or not these guys actually existed as far as anyone in Japan knew while Sojobow does his best to tear down the forum. I can already guess some of the evasions and insults he will use.

 

[sojobow]

Pay no attention to references to Sojobo.

"During the Heian period (794-1185) many warriors within the Iga and Koga regions sought instruction from the monks in order to increase their efficiency in combat. Those fortunate enough to study from the Yamabushi and Sohei were taught the true value of subterfuge in warfare. It is said that the first established Koga groups came together around the year 940. There were eight original Koga families. They were the Koga, Ugai, Naikii, Mochizuki, Akutagawa, Ban, Nagano and Ueno. These eight groups were known as the “Koga Hachi Tengu,” or “Eight Tengu of Koga”. "

http://www.warriorquest.com/index.html

 

[Don Roley]

http://www.warriorquest.com/index.html

So you are basing your drivel on what another internet ninja fraud wrote?

Note that the page lists no references. And if "hachi tengu" really meant "eight tengu" then the movie "Seven Samurai" would be "Shichi samurai." Check on an internet search, it is not. The words are missing a possesive particle and a counter in Japanese.

In other words, it has been made up and is not Japanese.

Do a check on Martialtalk and e-budo of the words "Mark Grove" from whose site Sojobow basis his history on. He makes claims of being given a Japanese name by a teacher, but the Japanese he uses is not one that a Japanese would use. And there has been no proof he had a teacher instead of just making things up himself. And he has been caught changing his web site when his is caught in these types of things.

This is the type of source Sojobow uses. Is it any wonder we laugh at him?

 

[sojobow]

This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:
"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."

I don't see the need for a reference when all I ask for is information. Your constant interferences are really annoying with respect to your trolling, flamming etc of everyone. I'll post below additional "Frauds" since they confirm what is posted above. Everytime you do endeavor to display your narcistic ability in Japanese language, we here you and some of us are impressed. Everytime you endeavor to prove me wrong - even for asking a question, it seems that - of all people, it is your own Soke who confirms me and not you. Thus far, you've proven me wrong about nothing and it time-consuming to keep having to address this when all is needed is that you answer the questions/topic asked, respond with civility, or do not interrupt us from Japan.

Additional "Drivel."

So you are basing your drivel on what another internet ninja fraud wrote?

In other words, it has been made up and is not Japanese

This is the type of source Sojobow uses. Is it any wonder we laugh at him?

You may begin your laughter:

Bujinkan Croatia
http://www.bujinkan.hr/en/bujinkan/history.htm
We can divide them in two groups: schools in Iga and Koga regions of Japan. Those two were provinces where many schools developed , and we know today of Iga Ryu, Momochi Ryu, Genjitsu Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, Gyokko Ryu and other as well as Tatara Ryu, Taira Ryu, Sasaki Ryu, Tachibana Hachi Tengu Ryu and other.
http://www.bufuikan.com/kogaden.html
Koga Ryu Ninpo consisted of 53 families who probably came together under the Tenkyo period between 938 and 946. ....Tachibana Hachi Tengu ryu, Kawachi Yon Tengu ryu While the Koga Ryu grew, there were eight families (Koga Hachi Tengu) that would be the strongest, leading the other ryu in Koga.
http://www.ninjutsu.de/erlangen/ninpo/english/ewhatryu.htm
Ninjutsu is a Japanese martial art which has emerged about 900 years ago. Some roots even trace thousands of years ago
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:AIPYm_O0BekJ:www.geocities.com/bujinkanbuyu/buyu/nov_dic_ene2002.doc+Koga+Hachi+Tengu&hl=en
Masaaki Hatsumi – Tetsuzan – Página 80 Ninja y Deportes (23) 3 Agosto 1963,
A medida que el KOGA RYU crecía, había ocho familias (KOGA HACHI TENGU) que fueron más fuertes las cuales liderizaron las otras familias de KOGA. Estas ocho familias fueron KOGA, MOCHIZUKI, UGAI, NAIKII, AKUTAGAWA, UENO, BAN y NAGANO

http://www.geocities.com/gsensei/koga.html
"While the Koga Ryu grew, there were eight families (Koga Hachi Tengu)that would be the strongest, leading the other ryu in Koga."

Seems your weather predictions never work do they?:whip:

 

[Don Roley]

Excuse me Sojobow, but all you seem to prove is there are a lot of idiots on the internet who borrow from each other's sources. Let us look at just one of the sources you listed.

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:AIPYm_O0BekJ:www.geocities.com/bujinkanbuyu/buyu/nov_dic_ene2002.doc+Koga+Hachi+Tengu&hl=en
Masaaki Hatsumi – Tetsuzan – Página 80 Ninja y Deportes (23) 3 Agosto 1963,
A medida que el KOGA RYU crecía, había ocho familias (KOGA HACHI TENGU) que fueron más fuertes las cuales liderizaron las otras familias de KOGA. Estas ocho familias fueron KOGA, MOCHIZUKI, UGAI, NAIKII, AKUTAGAWA, UENO, BAN y NAGANO

Hmm, it would seem that you are using Hatsumi as he wrote in Tetsuzan against me.

But I have the book. I looked on page 80 (Página 80) and could not find anything to support what you said. But the Spainish version could be different from the English version I have. So on page 81 and 82 I found the Ninja and Sports colum #23 from August 30 1963 which is an interview with Takamatsu. I assume this is what is meant by the Spanish, "Masaaki Hatsumi – Tetsuzan – Página 80 Ninja y Deportes (23) 3 Agosto 1963". There is no August 3rd after all.

In the version you give there is a mention of the Koga Hachi Tengu. But in the verison I have on my lap, there is no mention of it.

Anyone who has the Japanese or English Tetsuzans can check with what I say. Hatsumi/ Takamatsu never made any mention of the Koga Hachi Tengu. Maybe Kizaru, technopunk or Kreth can take a look at their books and tell us if I am wrong. I do not fear what they will say, but Sojobow should be sweating.

Also, there is no mention of an original eight families of Koga, or the names that are listed in the Spanish post listed in the Japanese or English translations. Anyone who has the English verison of Tetsuzan can see this for themselves on page 82 and 83.

And since Hatsumi did not say what your source says he said, I do not feel the need to point out the errors in sources from Ron Duncan and the like you listed. It still amazes me to this day that there are people in the Bujinkan who think that frauds like Ronald Duncan, Frank Dux and Ashida Kim are valid sources for hisotry. But they exist.

It is kind of like the whole debate about the ninja sword being straight. You can find a lot of web sites, etc saying that it was straight, but they are all wrong. If you go to Hatsumi, Nawa, Nakajima, etc you will not find one who says the sword was straight, but many many web sites that says it was.

And as long as you , Sojobow, say with an authorative voice that things were a certain way, the more people will laugh when your sources prove to be wrong.

And why did you start a debate about ninja history in the modern ninjutsu section?

 

[althaur]

This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:
"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."

Ummmm, this was posted by YOU, not Heretic. Maybe you should actually pay attention to REALITY. Not your own little world.

As Don said, using another fraud's website for "proof" doesn't help. I can't believe I'm still trying to be logical with Sojo. It's like trying to argue physics with a monkey. Sheesh.

 

[Bester]

Master SloJoBlow can you enlighten us more on the new theory that the Apache were infact decents of a lost group of Ninja who took a wrong turn at Kyoto?

Also, what say you to the newly discovered truths?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17473

Master SloJoBlow we wait with
Bated breath to hear your words of wisdom.

 

[Don Roley]

Hmmm, it seems I was caught up in Sojobow's deception for a short while.

My last post responded to a post by Sojobow where Hatsumi's name was part of the portion quoted. But a re-check has confirmed that on the page that Sojobow linked to Hatsumi never tried to say that there ever was a Koga Hachi Tengu. Sojobow merely tried to give that impression by editing in a deceitfull manner.

The page is one trying to give all the information they can on the Koga ryu. In the section immediatly prior to what Sojobow quoted is a section from Testuzan on the Koga ryu. The quote seems to be pretty close to what I see in the Japanese and English versions of Tetsuzan. The attributation to Hatsumi is then given at the END of the quotation. Sojobow cut out the quotation by Hatsumi, left in the attributation at the top and then quoted the section following which comes from another (presumably internet) source.

Hatsumi's name has no place in the quote. Sojobow left in in as part of an attempt to deceive people into thinking that even Hatsumi said that there was a group called the Koga Hachi Tengu.

So it is not a case of a Bujinkan member purposefully putting words in Hatsumi's mouth. That dubious honor belongs to Sojbow alone. The only thing I can fault the Bujinkan member who set up that page is believing a source on the internet that is faulty. But if you say something often enough, people will come to believe it. And there are plenty of web sites that will say just about anything you want them to- like the ninja using straight swords, etc.

 

[sojobow]

Ummmm, this was posted by YOU, not Heretic. Maybe you should actually pay attention to REALITY. Not your own little world.

This is the question of interest. Please read the very first line (at least the first eight words of the very first line).

This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:
"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."

As Don said, using another fraud's website for "proof" doesn't help. I can't believe I'm still trying to be logical with Sojo. It's like trying to argue physics with a monkey. Sheesh.

Unbelievable!

 

[sojobow]

Here again, is the question.
This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:

"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."

A simple "I don't know" or "you can find more info here" would suffice.

 

[sojobow]

Hmmm, it seems I was caught up in Sojobow's deception for a short while.

My last post responded to a post by Sojobow where Hatsumi's name was part of the portion quoted. But a re-check has confirmed that on the page that Sojobow linked to Hatsumi never tried to say that there ever was a Koga Hachi Tengu. Sojobow merely tried to give that impression by editing in a deceitfull manner.

"Mensaje de Hatsumi Sensei"

There were about 5 other (half Bujinkan) sites. Each link is an obvious partial-page cut&paste. But, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question at hand. Plus, you were asked a question regarding the straight bladed sword by Kizaru (who somehow brings other's parents into his inquiries):

"But what about the "chokuto" style? I've heard that some ryu ha, like the Shinkage ryu still use them. I was under the impression that people who were not Samurai and not allowed to carry swords were still allowed to carry a single chokuto to defend themselves, and that this was the prefered "sidearm" of travelers. Not saying it was being exclusively used by Ninja, but that something similiar to it possibley did exist."

Also, does Hatsumi Sensei really have a reference to students in the Bujinkan should learn to fly airplanes? Seems his students here fail to see the importance in what he eludes to.

But actually, the only question I would expect you to answer is that of Kizaru as I don't think you have any pertinent info on the 8 Families.

 

[Kizaru]

"But actually, the only question I would expect you to answer is that of Kizaru as I don't think you have any pertinent info on the 8 Families.

I posed a question regarding the "8 Families" and I really would appreciate it if you would comment on it. I was really surprised when I was thumbing through a book in the basement at the Jochi University library and found a few passges on them. I posted this question in another section of the forum but I'll put it here to make it easier for everyone to find.

Thank you!

Hi All,
I've been doing a little research on the Koga ryu Ninjitsu tradition, and found information on the Hachi Tengu that Sojobow has been talking about. It was mentioned in the book I found that along with "Dim Mak" the Tanaka family was known to be skilled at "Kancho-jutsu" ,"Nigiri Pe" and "Chanbara" techniques. My girlfriend, whose family is from Mie Ken (area that was once known as Iga/Koga) has also had these skills passed down in her family for generations. If the people claiming to be carrying on Senzo Tanaka's tradition could tell us here in a public forum (kuden not necessary)a little about these skills, it would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that what they claim is true. Maybe give an example of hand formations in Kancho-jutsu or Nigiri Pe techniques?.