My objection to MMA

[Bodhisattva]

In general, I enjoy watching MMA, and I am going to watch the new UFC tonight.

However, I have one gripe with MMA. That is the kickboxing aspect of it. All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.

Do you have any proof of this? I've never heard that.

It is my opinion that karate and submission grappling is self defense. I like the submission aspect of MMA, but I don't like the Muay thai aspect of it. There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts, and all the shifting emphasis on standup does is create more cuts and blood, and more brutality for the image of the sport.

There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts in any striking sport.

In the old days, people would clinch and go to the ground almost immediately. Nowadays, people willfully stay standing just to entertain the audience or to win a judge's decision.

In the old days, people went to the ground almost immediately because alot of opponents didn't know ground, and didn't know guard at all. So they would go to ground to take advantage of that weakness. Now, most of the people who enter the cage know the ground - so people have had to adapt their game and learn stand up again.

Karate, and all it's variants, is the most underrated martial art out there. And Muay thai is the most hyped up.

I've seen very few Karate guys who could actually fight. Most of those that can fight train a lot like boxers and not very much like Karateka.

Submission grappling, Sombo, and BJJ is not overhyped. That is because in grappling/Jujitsu there is no division between sport and self defense. If you don't tap out from a choke, you go unconcious. If you dont tap out from an arm or leglock, the limb breaks. It's happened, even in practice..

Sure there is a division. You can't eye gouge your opponent in sport. But if you're already a good grappler, then the "dirty tricks" can really change the game.

So I must conclude this tirade with a bold declarative statement: karate and submission grappling is self defense. You don't have to be a professional athlete on steroids to know SD. I think Muay Thai and MMA is a little bit out there..

Then you should go take some classes at a respected school. They are two of the best fighting systems out there.

Anyway, Enjoy the UFC tonight!

 

[Bodhisattva]

I appreciate the reply. But dont hold me to what i wrote all that time ago. I am trying to think things out and come to conclusions based on logic and observation. Sometimes i have bad days, indeed.

however, it is my belief that unless you knock someone out with one punch or kick, the clinch and ground is almost inevitable. If that is so, than endurance fighting is not as useful as quick-kill fighting for SD. Boxing and Muay Thai are VERY DIFFICULT sports to practice, but dont involve the ground, and dont deal with the essence of self-defense- to stop the attacker in as little time as possible.

Karate is designed, ideally, to disable or kill the opponent with one blow.

What I should say is, there is no sport karate! Karate is not a sport! Non lethal striking is boxing/kickboxing. In submission grappling, there is no distinction between lethal/nonlethal. All the holds are potentially crippling and painful. Submission grappling can be practiced as a sport, with competitions and sparring, without fatality and injury.

Take away the gloves and the time limits and referee intervention and MMA will become more submission oriented. I prefer judo/sombo as a spectator, but I enjoyed tonight's UFC. Nogiuera is a great man.

Anyway, what i am trying to say is kickboxing is endurance-based and non-lethal, and is not as natural as grappling. And people have overlooked karate for a long time now.

I hope i have clarified my point.

Yes. Your point is clear.

 

[ChadWarner]

Well it is probabley not the art in and of itself but the practitioner. Cung le dismanted an mma fighter at an event in San Jose using using a rather large arsenal of weapons. He cut his teeth in the chinese full contact world of San Shou. It is the person and the persons teacher that allows them to excell in any arena--- not the system they study.

Sure the average martial artist doesnt train the way profesionals train- They have other responsibilities.

My objection to MMA does not exist. Run what you brung and see how it works out. Most bouts end in submission or tko or ko- There is not a whole lot of room for dishonesty, one mistake and it is over. I appreciate the fierce competitive nature and quik endings.

Great sport but it is not new, just reinvented and remarketed to the U.S.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Great sport but it is not new, just reinvented and remarketed to the U.S.

It actually existed in the US ages ago as "Catch as Catch Can"

Fighting really isn't new anywhere.

Even Abe Lincoln (I'm not kidding) was said to be a fearsome Catch as Catch Can opponent..

When I read that, I took it with a grain of salt - as I recall he had some kind of health problems, didn't he?

 

[Tez3]

Catch as catch can is still practised here but it's a wrestling style not MMA.

 

[The Last Legionary]

All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.

Please be sure to contact the French and let them know this. The Savate folks will appreciate the clarification.
They might ask for some facts to support it. I'm sure you'll be able to show how Muay Thai influenced Savate's development in the 1800's.

go to the ground almost immediately

I'll assume that this is in reference to the sport of cage fighting, and not referring to the wider world of martial arts and self defense.


Personally, the amount of people making broad generic and clueless statements continues to amaze me. I think they should be fined, $1 per error.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Please be sure to contact the French and let them know this. The Savate folks will appreciate the clarification.
They might ask for some facts to support it. I'm sure you'll be able to show how Muay Thai influenced Savate's development in the 1800's.




I'll assume that this is in reference to the sport of cage fighting, and not referring to the wider world of martial arts and self defense.


Personally, the amount of people making broad generic and clueless statements continues to amaze me. I think they should be fined, $1 per error.

Why are you so arrogant?

Do you get some kind of kick out of calling people "clueless?"

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Brian R. VanCise
MartialTalk Super Moderator

 

[zDom]

The "History of Martial Arts According to the MMAers" kind of annoys me too.

i.e., that all kicking goes back to Muay Thai and all grappling is BJJ

But as for Savate, the French sailors picked it up from the Orient, so ...


In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for MMA buffet-style martial artists?

It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.

Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.

Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?

...

 

[Tez3]

The "History of Martial Arts According to the MMAers" kind of annoys me too.

i.e., that all kicking goes back to Muay Thai and all grappling is BJJ

But as for Savate, the French sailors picked it up from the Orient, so ...


In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for MMA buffet-style martial artists?

It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.

Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.

Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?

...

C'mon be fair, that's a rather insulting thing to say. All MMAers? I've never actually had a conversation with anyone who does MMA on the history of the sport as to where it comes from. And we aren't willing to take the time to train properly eh? Well I'm black belt TSD, I know many who are black belt TKD, I know one who is WC, a great many like my instructor have come from full contact karate. You will not hear people on this side of the pond saying all kicking is MT and all grappling is BJJ though we do acknowledge their uses and train in them, many for years and obtain high grades through hard work.
You know nothing of the people I know who all train hard, are good martial artists...most of them in TMA as well as MMA so you cannot undrstand actually how insulting you are! Even many of your UFC 'stars' come from a TMA background.
I don't come on here disrespecting any other style so why is it ok to slag off MMA?

 

[zDom]

C'mon be fair, that's a rather insulting thing to say. All MMAers? I've never actually had a conversation with anyone who does MMA on the history of the sport as to where it comes from. And we aren't willing to take the time to train properly eh? Well I'm black belt TSD, I know many who are black belt TKD, I know one who is WC, a great many like my instructor have come from full contact karate. You will not hear people on this side of the pond saying all kicking is MT and all grappling is BJJ though we do acknowledge their uses and train in them, many for years and obtain high grades through hard work.
You know nothing of the people I know who all train hard, are good martial artists...most of them in TMA as well as MMA so you cannot undrstand actually how insulting you are! Even many of your UFC 'stars' come from a TMA background.
I don't come on here disrespecting any other style so why is it ok to slag off MMA?

You are correct. My apologies.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say SOME (many?) MMAers?

Or maybe U.S. MMAers?

It seems from both what I see in the media and in discussions here that the "MMA cultures" here and across the pond differ. Much.

A lot of this comes, no doubt, from U.S. announcers who seem to fit the description in my previous post — which in turn, influences up-and-coming MMAers.

In any case, please do accept my apology: I need to remember this is an international forum

 

[zDom]

C'mon be fair, that's a rather insulting thing to say. All MMAers? I've never actually had a conversation with anyone who does MMA on the history of the sport as to where it comes from. And we aren't willing to take the time to train properly eh? Well I'm black belt TSD, I know many who are black belt TKD, I know one who is WC, a great many like my instructor have come from full contact karate. You will not hear people on this side of the pond saying all kicking is MT and all grappling is BJJ though we do acknowledge their uses and train in them, many for years and obtain high grades through hard work.
You know nothing of the people I know who all train hard, are good martial artists...most of them in TMA as well as MMA so you cannot undrstand actually how insulting you are! Even many of your UFC 'stars' come from a TMA background.
I don't come on here disrespecting any other style so why is it ok to slag off MMA?

Please note: "Buffet-style MMAers" definately does NOT apply to you in that you, as noted in your post, invested enough time in a single martial art to achieve the rank of black belt.

The type I specifically meant with that comment are those who go train 3 months with a Muay Thai trainer, 4 months with a BJJ trainer, 3 months with a boxing trainer (while spending most of their time pumping iron and in tattoo shops ) and then put on their resume:

"Expert in Muay Thai, BJJ and boxing"

 

[Tez3]

No worries as they say in Oz! I have a friend who lurks on MT, has posted once and I shall try and persuade to post more. He is a pro MMA fighter and also a coach. It would be good to get a pro fighters point of view. he's very well respected over here.
A British promotion Cagewarriors is putting a show on in Florida shortly with British fighters on it and of course some Americans! This is the first trial poster as they have just chosen the name of the show by a competition, I won't tell you how much you wouldn't have like some of the titles lol! Dan Hardy, Andre Winner and Jummy Wallhead are all very talented fighters.

 

[Odin]

The "History of Martial Arts According to the MMAers" kind of annoys me too.

i.e., that all kicking goes back to Muay Thai and all grappling is BJJ

But as for Savate, the French sailors picked it up from the Orient, so ...


In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for MMA buffet-style martial artists?

It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.

Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.

Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?

...

You know what annoys me, the romantic viewpoint that more tradional martial artists Seem to have on what martial arts actually are. ''It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.''

]That’s not a very intelligent statement……so are you saying then because I can watch a chuck norris film and copy a karate/Tkd side kick, tkd and karate are therefore easy to learn?..or because I can mimic a jab cross combo I can now jump into a bro boxing ring and compete??

Fyi…you do not swing your leg in a Muay Thai power angle kick, your leg comes up and then through, the power is generated by the turning of hip and the core muscles, this is actually a very unnatural movement and takes a long time to master...just because something looks simple it does not mean it is, I actually know of quite a view people that have left other arts for Muay Thai who struggled a great deal with the techniques particularly the 'simple' kicks.

''Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.''

Again a sweeping statement with no evidence to support it, I could say that tradional martial arts are more suited to the 'armchair martial artist' ones that focus more of theories of what 'might' happen if they strike your jugular with their index finger rather then what would happen if you actually did….a sweeping statement btw not one I believe.

Why do Olympic Tkd'ers where chest protectors? why I thought that would be obvious the same reason Olympic boxers where head gear…because they have to, it’s a point system in effect the aim is not to knock out or damage your opponent.

Muay Thai fighters in the first couple of interclub fights where padding too, the aim of this is to get used to fighting under pressure in a ring environment, it’s a learning tool, your not going to learn if after one kick you cannot fight……that’s professional Muay Thai

Its apparent from many of your posts that you have a biased dislike for MMA, its getting to a point now where you don’t seem to have any sound arguments against it, your verging on trolling bro

Something for you to think about, when you were at highschool I presume you learnt both maths, english and science at separate times and from different teaches that all specialised at those subjects, are you saying you think you would have done better ar school if you leanred all three from just one teacher that didnt specialise in either?, are you saying you feel you did not get complete learning from this 'buffet' stlye of teaching?maybe your maths is abit off because your english teacher didn’t teach you it??

 

[Blindside]

Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?

So they don't accidentally hurt themselves with all the chest bumping?

Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking....

How do you define "refined?" And I'd really really like to see you back up "more powerful."

Lamont

 

[meth18au]

In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for MMA buffet-style martial artists?

It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.

Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.

Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?

Buffet style martial artists? So would you advocate learning one, and only one art? That's a bit closed minded....I don't think MMA guys and gals would take kindly to being called buffet style martial artists.

The Thai roundhouse kick is not an easy kick to pick up. Many people I know have never been able to grasp the concept of it. To really be able to rotate your hip and send that leg flying around is not as easy as it looks. Just out of curiosity, what would a more 'refined and powerful' style of kick be? And why? Muay Thai requires the investment of plenty of time into mastering it's techniques- why would you think it requires any less than another art?

Have I ever wondered why Olympic TKD competitors wear chest pads? Because of the point sparring system probably, and to make it more accessible to the general populace. Why don't MT competitors wear the gear? For many reasons- but what exactly do you mean to imply with that comment?

 

[The Last Legionary]

Buffet style martial artists?

When did this conversation switch to discussing Kenpo?

 

[Traditionalist]

I do agree that Muay Thai is an excellent sport, if you'er doing Muay Thai right. Their kicks are devistating. But I do have to say that MMA "Muay Thai" that MMAers claim to know has never come close to what I see the young men in Thailand do. Most Muay Thai fighters end their career in their late teens or early twenties because the martial art is so powerful and damaging. If you know anything about Muay Thai in Thailand you also know that these young men spend most of their adolescents working on their kicks so they become devastating weapons in the ring. I personally believe that almost, and I say almost, no on in the MMA circuit have Muay Thai kicks on the same level as Muay Thai fighters. And the proof is that non-Thai persons still have a hard time beating a Thai fighter. And its not because it comes down to a decision, most of the time it comes down to a KO. And I don't understand why everyone is getting so worked up about MMA. No one their claims to be just a one art student (although I'm sure there are some like the Gracie's) so in a sense they are saying they are a buffet. MMA is getting like all other contact sports there are too many rules and slowly but surely the aspect of it simulating real fighting will be lost. Because I know if I'm in a real fight I'm going to be stomping someone on the ground.

 

[Tez3]

We are sponsored by Fairtex and we send our MMA fighters to Bangkok to train at Fairtex's boxing camp with some of the best MT fighters/trainers in Thailand. This isn't the 'tourist' place, this is the concrete floor 'train for hours' a day place.
No one in MMA is saying it's 'real' fighting as in street/self defence fighting, it's a sport. Of course it has rules. It wasn't intended to simulate real fights, it's a sport! Most MMA fighters know that because it's a sport! It's the same as the full contact karate, the full contact NT fights,western boxing, they are sports!
If caught in a street fight/self defence situation how would a MT fight? Not like he does in the ring that's for sure.
Separate MMA from what happens outside the ring/cage please.

 

[matt.m]

I am not the biggest fan of MMA either, however......it is a lot easier to train in an MMA gym and begin fighting than it is to belt up in hapkido and yudo. At least doing it the hard way my statement is true.

I have no real gripe or complaint about MMA perse, actually if it is a continuous fight then it can be enjoyable. However, I have seen people come off the street and "Throw" their leg up and call it a kick. Sorry, but their is no proper chamber, hip rotation, or power. It is just a slung leg.

The same is true about yudo.....I have had bjj and mma guys come and give my class a try. Well, not to be rude or blunt but I am a technique junkie. The same core group I began teaching in June of last year wont be testing for yellow until April of this year after our convention.

So after their "Free" trial workout I never saw the bjj or mma folks again. What a shame, my motto is "The more the merrier."

I do like the idea of MMA, but it is a hodgepodge of "Favored" techniques for the Octogon. If that is what spins your wheels then I am happy for you. Just train hard and be considerate of others.

I have a few pals that I work with that participate and train in MMA. The general consensus from them is "It's a sport not a self defense art." Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, Yudo, Okinawan Karate, Shotokan Karate, Aikido are arts that are designed for someone to effectively and efficiently protect themselves. Yep they(TKD/Karate and Judo) have sport or contest aspects but they are defense arts first and constest sports second. And all of this is ok, if taken in context that it is a sport. I mean gee, in tkd sparring we call it "Two people fighting" or a "TKD fight" but they are really very controlled contests based on points. Same with Yudo. Although the only padding you get there is the mat that you don't want to get thrown on. In St. L we have former Kempo trainees, and folks from other styles. They are always welcome. I have found that asking someone how they initially learned a technique and going from there is much easier on the person and I to help them with hapkido, yudo, or tae kwon do. It is also about delivery.......say for instance, I would say something to the effect of "The way we do it here is this." Followed by a demonstration of what I was trying to get across.

Everyone wants to be taught and led well. That is the instructors job to do that, it isn't the students fault if they are taught wrong. As far as this whole nudity business is concerned, well gee.......go pick up the newest issue of Black Belt mag. and read the article on Pancration.