Most Dangerous (as in Useless) Self-Defense Technique Taught?

[Flying Crane]

Care to elaborate?

EPIC DOUBLE POST - second one attached to the wrong post.

I have experienced some material that is part of a formal curriculum, that is overly complex and makes lots of unrealistic assumptions about what might be possible in the chaotic environment of personal conflict and violence. If it was meant as fight choreography for an action movie well maybe ok then. But not in a real fight.

Some people suggest that this material is meant to explore possibilities and is not meant to be taken literally. Maybe, maybe not. The way they tend to be taught, from what I have seen, suggests otherwise. And exploring possibilities should not include formalizing and systematically practicing that which is NOT a possibility.

 

[Flying Crane]

double post again

 

[Paul_D]

Grab the live side of the blade.
Turn your back on your attacker.
Leave him on balance.

 

[Buka]

A hammer fist to the top of the head.

A downward, two handed X block against a knife thrust.

 

[Buka]

The only way I seem to NOT double post is to hit "post reply", then watch the little thingy show it's trying to do so, then close MT and reopen it.

 

[hoshin1600]

A hammer fist to the top of the head.

Actually that strike works quite well,,,but you need the hammer.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A hammer fist to the top of the head.

I don't know...work pretty well for Fezzik

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We simply have a fundamental disagreement on what self-defense is compared to personal protection is. We also have a fundamental disagreement on the efficacy of "martial arts" training for personal protection.

One can look at the many other posts to see that.

So, you're claiming that training physical self-defense techniques is useless to the point of being dangerous? Care to back that claim with some evidence? In evidence counter to that assertion, there are many instances of people using their martial arts training to defend themselves effectively.

Now, you could debate whether time spent in MA training for SD is as effective as other self-protection training, and we'd have a different discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have experienced some material that is part of a formal curriculum, that is overly complex and makes lots of unrealistic assumptions about what might be possible in the chaotic environment of personal conflict and violence. If it was meant as fight choreography for an action movie well maybe ok then. But not in a real fight.

Some people suggest that this material is meant to explore possibilities and is not meant to be taken literally. Maybe, maybe not. The way they tend to be taught, from what I have seen, suggests otherwise. And exploring possibilities should not include formalizing and systematically practicing that which is NOT a possibility.

I'm not sure what sub-thread we're in anymore, thanks to the system glitches, but I like this thought.

I'm personally okay with some things being in the formal curriculum that are not directly possible, so long as it's done to facilitate learning of principles. I find this in some of the Classical forms in NGA. There's no way anyone would do some of those dance moves in a real altercation, but they do allow for the practice and examination of some principles in a controlled setting (static attack, complex response). I sometimes actually use these particular forms to discuss how not to do NGA in application.

Beyond those uses, however, I'm entirely with you. In fact, if I were starting from scratch (rather than evolving an existing art), I'd probably remove those from the list of Classical forms and create a separate group of forms specifically for that purpose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Grab the live side of the blade.
Turn your back on your attacker.
Leave him on balance.

The leaving him on balance is probably because she's not trained, so I'll give the instructor a pass on that one. The back-turning appears to be from a poor choice of progression - I can't see how she'd get to that lock without it, unless that's a result of her not properly taking his structure (which might alter that position entirely). Grabbing the blade by the edge? In an extreme situation where I don't feel like I've another choice, I guess might try to pinch-hold it (grabbing the flats), knowing that there's a good chance I'll get messed up, but it certainly shouldn't be a go-to move.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not sure what sub-thread we're in anymore, thanks to the system glitches, but I like this thought.

I'm personally okay with some things being in the formal curriculum that are not directly possible, so long as it's done to facilitate learning of principles. I find this in some of the Classical forms in NGA. There's no way anyone would do some of those dance moves in a real altercation, but they do allow for the practice and examination of some principles in a controlled setting (static attack, complex response). I sometimes actually use these particular forms to discuss how not to do NGA in application.

Beyond those uses, however, I'm entirely with you. In fact, if I were starting from scratch (rather than evolving an existing art), I'd probably remove those from the list of Classical forms and create a separate group of forms specifically for that purpose.

Well, there are certainly drills and exercises that build principles both in understanding and in physical skill, but they are not meant for direct application exactly as-is, and the way they are practiced makes it pretty easy to understand that.

The stuff I am talking about tends to be taught as a direct defensive response to an attack. Some of the stuff has some good ideas. Some of it has some very very bad ideas.

 

[Charlemagne]

 

[Charlemagne]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The only way I seem to NOT double post is to hit "post reply", then watch the little thingy show it's trying to do so, then close MT and reopen it.

After I let the thingy finish, I just reload the MT page without closing it.

 

[Flying Crane]

After I let the thingy finish, I just reload the MT page without closing it.

I just go back up to the top and hit "new posts"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I just go back up to the top and hit "new posts"

I just want to see the post and make sure it posted, so I stay on the same page. Otherwise, the same effect of forcing the MT system to reload.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I just go back up to the top and hit "new posts"

I just want to see the post and make sure it posted, so I stay on the same page. Otherwise, the same effect of forcing the MT system to reload.

Well, there are certainly drills and exercises that build principles both in understanding and in physical skill, but they are not meant for direct application exactly as-is, and the way they are practiced makes it pretty easy to understand that.

The stuff I am talking about tends to be taught as a direct defensive response to an attack. Some of the stuff has some good ideas. Some of it has some very very bad ideas.

That's where the issue lies: when the difference isn't clear to the learner.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just want to see the post and make sure it posted, so I stay on the same page. Otherwise, the same effect of forcing the MT system to reload.

That's where the issue lies: when the difference isn't clear to the learner.

Honestly tho, I think often the difference isn't clear to the teachers. They act like this stuff would work, like it is reasonable and makes sense. And contrary to some of the claims, it is my opinion that there are often no real principles buried within there, that this could possibly teach effectively.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just want to see the post and make sure it posted, so I stay on the same page. Otherwise, the same effect of forcing the MT system to reload.

That's where the issue lies: when the difference isn't clear to the learner.

Honestly tho, I think often the difference isn't clear to the teachers. They act like this stuff would work, like it is reasonable and makes sense. And contrary to some of the claims, it is my opinion that there are often no real principles buried within there, that this could possibly teach effectively.

 

[Paul_D]

The leaving him on balance is probably because she's not trained

Possibly, although I think it's more likely because the technique isn't designed to unbalance the attacker as whoever came up with it is a clueless fuckwit.

 

[Tez3]

What would you say is the most useless technique taught in self-defense classes? One that you know would never work in reality?

For me, I would have to say telling rape victims to scream "fire" instead of "help." It just doesn't make sense to me. If someone screamed "fire," I would not run TOWARD it...I would run FURTHER AWAY from the sound of the voice yelling it, so as to not die a fiery death! That's just my opinion though.

So, how about it?

it's actually good sense, shout rape people don't want to get involved, shout fire and they want to see it, look at any building fire and there's a crowd. the police always have to come out for crowd control.

First, I agree.

Second, I am glad I am not the only one the site is spazzing out on!

I've mentioned this before but you probably haven't seen it, 'spazzing' is an offensive expression in the UK, it's not pleasant. Why is spastic so offensive in the UK? • /r/OutOfTheLoop

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant. In the past when I've pointed this out, people have often leaned toward defending the method and this material. There is a reluctance to accept the idea that some things just show poor judgement as an idea. That doesn't mean it's all crap. But jeezuz, some of it sure is.

 

[Charlemagne]

After I let the thingy finish, I just reload the MT page without closing it.

First time I have really had problems. The page seemed to have timed out without posting, which is why I posted a second time.

 

[Charlemagne]

I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant. In the past when I've pointed this out, people have often leaned toward defending the method and this material. There is a reluctance to accept the idea that some things just show poor judgement as an idea. That doesn't mean it's all crap. But jeezuz, some of it sure is.

Exactly. Some stuff just isn't that good, and neither are some arts. There are too many people who want to make excuses for both.