What MUST be taught in a Self-Defense Course?

[drop bear]

after reading this thread, I believe I am convinced it is unethical to sell a 2 hour self defense class. It's snake oil, much like a miracle diet or a risk free money making seminar.

You could sell it like my crocodile vid and have merit.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not a physicist, but I can discuss basic physics. I can even do the math for some fairly advanced physics (though not as much as my wife, who has a degree in Engineering, and is ALSO not a physicist). My background is psychology. That doesn't make me unable to grasp the science of physics.

Having not the correct grounding in physics and then using it to make a point is like a blind man describing an elephant. You will miss something and be wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure! There's a couple of high percentage mount escapes that can be learned very quickly.

In a way that they'll repeat them under stress? After maybe a couple dozen repetitions?

Relates back to this.

"Then let me rephrase, you don't need to have broken something to know that a technique and physics dictates that something will break."

He knows through training and physics ( well some sort of science) That all of these things will occur.

That is martial arts physics. And seriously that was just a tragic interpretation of the defined method..

Now when i asked the question insetead of defining what sort of physics he was talking about. (which is the use of physice without any proper grounding in physics? interested to see where this one goes by the way)

You evaded the question and made it about me.

So is that technique and physics as you are defining it. Or are you using a different method of technique and physics?

That video has nothing to do with my training, so why use it as an example? His references to spinal reflexes are not physics (that would be physiology or kinesiology, if his statements are even accurate). The break he demonstrates could produce sufficient opposing forces (his pull down on the forearm and the attacker's weight, against the rising force from his legs) to create a dislocation of the elbow if he keeps the parts in place. I'd expect that to require him drawing the attacker more forward to sustain the base long enough to bring those forces to bear.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the physics of the break (because you asked about physics), not about how he gets to it, nor about whether there are counters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Having not the correct grounding in physics and then using it to make a point is like a blind man describing an elephant. You will miss something and be wrong.

Again, you are assuming that only a person who has a degree in physics can actually understand it. Physics is a science, not an arcane art.

 

[drop bear]

In a way that they'll repeat them under stress? After maybe a couple dozen repetitions?

That video has nothing to do with my training, so why use it as an example? His references to spinal reflexes are not physics (that would be physiology or kinesiology, if his statements are even accurate). The break he demonstrates could produce sufficient opposing forces (his pull down on the forearm and the attacker's weight, against the rising force from his legs) to create a dislocation of the elbow if he keeps the parts in place. I'd expect that to require him drawing the attacker more forward to sustain the base long enough to bring those forces to bear.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the physics of the break (because you asked about physics), not about how he gets to it, nor about whether there are counters.

The video fits the argument so is valid. Whether or not it fits your training is apparently argumentative.


It doesnt fit my training either because martial artists citing physics is generally bloody stupid considering the person using the physics may not understand it and the person learning the physics may not understand it.

 

[drop bear]

Again, you are assuming that only a person who has a degree in physics can actually understand it. Physics is a science, not an arcane art.

And you can understand a science without studying that science?

 

[Justin Chang]

after reading this thread, I believe I am convinced it is unethical to sell a 2 hour self defense class. It's snake oil, much like a miracle diet or a risk free money making seminar.

I think it depends on how you market the class, if you say that they will learn everything they need to know to defend themselves or come out unharmed then I agree, however if you market it as an introduction to the subject matter then I don't think it is unethical.

 

[Juany118]

I think it depends on how you market the class, if you say that they will learn everything they need to know to defend themselves or come out unharmed then I agree, however if you market it as an introduction to the subject matter then I don't think it is unethical.

You can also market it as a seminar for those already familiar with the concept(s) to be presented imo.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Steve]

I think it depends on how you market the class, if you say that they will learn everything they need to know to defend themselves or come out unharmed then I agree, however if you market it as an introduction to the subject matter then I don't think it is unethical.

I don't know that I agree. I mean, if you were actually up front about how little, practical information they could get from a 2 hour session, you wouldn't have anyone attend. I can imagine someone coming in and saying, "Hey, I'm interested in hearing from you what I could easily watch for free on eHow."

You can also market it as a seminar for those already familiar with the concept(s) to be presented imo.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I agree, but I didn't think that was what this thread is about. I'll also admit that I think seminars are largely a waste of time. They're a way for guys to make some quick cash. Most valuable thing about seminars is the networking.

Thinking about this a little more, my opinion is that if there is any value to a 2 hour intro to self defense it would be marketed as a demonstration and recruiting event. If you were marketing it as this, there could be value as it would give people an introduction to your system, and then they can make a (hopefully) informed decision about whether to sign up for classes. Because, after all, you aren't actually selling self defense. You're selling your system, whether that's as a grappler, a ninja, a kung fu master, or whatever else you might be teaching.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I don't know that I agree. I mean, if you were actually up front about how little, practical information they could get from a 2 hour session, you wouldn't have anyone attend. I can imagine someone coming in and saying, "Hey, I'm interested in hearing from you what I could easily watch for free on eHow."

I agree, but I didn't think that was what this thread is about. I'll also admit that I think seminars are largely a waste of time. They're a way for guys to make some quick cash. Most valuable thing about seminars is the networking.

Thinking about this a little more, my opinion is that if there is any value to a 2 hour intro to self defense it would be marketed as a demonstration and recruiting event. If you were marketing it as this, there could be value as it would give people an introduction to your system, and then they can make a (hopefully) informed decision about whether to sign up for classes. Because, after all, you aren't actually selling self defense. You're selling your system, whether that's as a grappler, a ninja, a kung fu master, or whatever else you might be teaching.

Yeah I agree about seminars I remember from my kenpo days they'd always hype up seminars as this huge thing and you'll learn so much you didn't know before and every time I've been to one I really didn't learn anything I couldn't have learnt in a normal class and a lot was stuff I'd already learnt. The only one that benefited was the visiting instructor who probably made about 800 quid with the cost of each seminar

 

[Steve]

Yeah I agree about seminars I remember from my kenpo days they'd always hype up seminars as this huge thing and you'll learn so much you didn't know before and every time I've been to one I really didn't learn anything I couldn't have learnt in a normal class and a lot was stuff I'd already learnt. The only one that benefited was the visiting instructor who probably made about 800 quid with the cost of each seminar

You get a cool photo with the visiting instructor that you can show to people a few decades later that "proves" you trained with him or her.

 

[Kickboxer101]

You get a cool photo with the visiting instructor that you can show to people a few decades later that "proves" you trained with him or her.

I mean the guys who come over are probably great instructors in their regular schools but let's be honest even if they do teach anything good it'll be forgotten by everyone in about a week since you really can't just something once and then everyone has it takes a while to reinforce the idea which you can't do when your not training with the instructor all the time. The last one I went to the guy spent the whole hour teaching the salutation you do st the beginning and end of each class. Now I've known that since my first week of training and I'm paying 50 quid for this guy to teach me it again. I refused to do any seminars after that

 

[Hanzou]

In a way that they'll repeat them under stress? After maybe a couple dozen repetitions?

Yes. The goal is to not make a woman the next Angela Lee or MacKenzie Dern. Just teaching 1 or 2 simple escapes can be very beneficial for someone if they wind up on their back.

 

[Juany118]

Again, you are assuming that only a person who has a degree in physics can actually understand it. Physics is a science, not an arcane art.

Heck there are "conceptual physics" courses in HS and Colleges that allow people to study and understand the effects of physics without the math. But, as an example imo is an army sniper. The sniper doesn't need to know the mathematical equation on how wind and the coriolis effect, range etc. will impact the trajectory of a bullet so as to accurately adjust one's aim.

 

[drop bear]

You get a cool photo with the visiting instructor that you can show to people a few decades later that "proves" you trained with him or her.

We get some cool concept stuff. I think it depends on the guy.

 

[Buka]

Haven't been on this thread in a while. Been busy doing important stuff.....reading other threads.

Wasn't going to post this, it's different than the norm and will probably get some tsk, tsks, probably won't read well in print, but it worked in real life, year after year. So, anyway...

I never did a self defense seminar for people other than Martial Artists, military and cops. But I did a lot of short self defense courses for Corporate America in the eighties, (that's where the money was, helped support the dojo) in and around the Boston area, a few in Providence Rhode Island. They were four to six week courses, twice a week, an hour and a half each class. They were after work for the employees of the hiring company, once in while they were during their work hours. The company provided the area to teach. It was real good money, and I usually had an assistant or two, a lot of times my wife.

Made lots of cash. But I stopped doing them, used the old "scheduling conflicts" excuse instead of the truth - "you're wasting your money, I don't think they're helping in the way you want them to." I was feeling guilty, irresponsible even.

What they wanted, what everyone wants (I think so, anyway) is to learn to fight off an attacker(s). I just don't think it can be done in six weeks. I felt like it was a disservice. I did start doing some courses in crime prevention, along with cops from different departments, though. I think the information helped more than what I had been doing before. Maybe if I had an idea of what fighting on the ground was about back then, it could have been different, better, more complete. But I had no experience there until the early nineties, so I don't know.

Then I got called and asked to speak to a girls graduating high school that was heading away to college. So I did, didn't accept any cash, did it as a public service. I had been recommended by a former student who had ties to the school. I guess he told them what to expect. (but, surprisingly, they asked me anyway) I ended up doing these frequently.

I'd show up, dressed a certain way, very polite, quiet and smiling. It was usually a large group of young women, two or three graduating senior classes from several schools. Three or four hundred kids. They knew I was in law enforcement and taught self defense. A dozen or so teachers and administrators, from the attending schools, were standing around the walls. I made it a point to introduce myself to all staff before it started, chatting about this and that, trying to make them comfy.

I would address the girls with a quick intro, very straight laced, wishing them well on their way to college, such an important time of their lives blah, blah, blah. By this point they figured I was as boring as their least favorite teacher. I'd usually be on a stage, at a podium, but then I'd start to walk around, making the kids a little uncomfortable. (no microphone)

"As I've stated, I work as a federal law enforcement officer. In my duties we work with people in the Behavioral Sciences. They've taught us a lot. We profile people. We learn warning signs, eye signals, postures - we read "the tells". Then I'd go into a couple minute spiel about "tells".

"What I'd like to share with you today is a one hundred percent, foolproof method of determining if a young man is lying to you. There is a "tell". And this tell is ALWAYS there, and this tell is NEVER wrong." (pause for dramatic effect as my voice rose)

"And, I promise, I'm going to share that information with you. You will all know and remember it before you leave today. But, first, let's talk about something else. Let's talk about men." Giggles, rustling in the seats, a cheer or two, as I turn my back and walk towards the stage again, then turn.

"Every man that has ever met you since you were twelve years old has thought about f-king you. Every single one, even if it's only for a hundredth of a second. It's what they do, it's what they are, it's biologically hard wired."

And, yes, that's the word I always used, pure shock value, pure truth. And if you don't think I have one hundred percent of their attention by now, you don't know young women. And believe it or not, once their surprise and shock wore off, now I had their trust. (I've spoken to many of these young women, years later)

"And now you're going away to a new place, a new school, with new men you don't know. Wouldn't it be a good idea to know that "tell" I mentioned, to KNOW when a young man is lying to you? So, what do you look for, what is that one indicator that the young man is one hundred percent lying to you?

"His LIPS ARE MOVING. If his lips are moving, he is lying his *** off."

There is much laughter at this point, some applause, and the teachers, who looked like they were going to stroke out a minute ago, almost start to relax. Almost.

"So lets talk about crime against women. Preventing crime and fighting against crime. Do you know what a sexual predator looks like?" I walk around pointing at various girls, "Do you know, do you, how about you?"

"He looks like me. He looks like your best friend. He looks like your teacher, your neighbor, your mailman, your favorite cousin, He looks like everyone and anyone you know. He is usually sweet, charming and witty. Sometimes he's really cute, a big shot at school, the kind of guy you want to be around, the kind of guy you want to be seen with."

"I'm sure you've all heard about court case that involve sexual assault. Where the woman said no, and things were supposed to stop. Close proximity is not the place to say stop. If you're already on thin ice in the middle of a river, it's far more difficult to stay safe and warm than if you didn't drive your car onto that ice in the first place. (I'm walking away at this point, then quickly turn and mimic a girl) "But Jenny said it was okay"!" (laughter) We all have friends who said it was (air quotes) "okay", don't we ladies?" (eating out of my hand at this point)

Let's talk about other things you've heard in the news, about sexual assault against unconscious women. There's really only two ways to become unconscious, on your own, or by somebody else.

ON YOUR OWN......do you really want to get so drunk you couldn't save your best friend or little brothers life if all you had to do was pick up a phone? So drunk that you couldn't run out a door if the building caught fire? Really, is that what you want? (then I say, "Don't answer that!")

Let's talk about unconscious by somebody else's hand. Somebody spikes your drink. You get a roofie. This is kind of a new phenomena, ya? Didn't have to deal with it in my day. (I usually walk around with my head down for a few seconds)

Do you know when Phohibition was? (then I usually ask if they know WHAT it was)
Prohibition started in 1920. My father was a bartender since BEFORE prohibition. He warned me about spiked drinks when I was a kid. He was warned about it by older bartenders when he was a young man. So, new? Not hardly. More prevalent? Probably, or maybe we just hear about it more because there's more media. So when that slick young thing that's making you swoon, asks you, can I get you a drink? what was the tell that made you know he was lying???? Together, now, ladies, his....and they all yell out LIPS ARE MOVING!"

This goes on for about an hour. Talking about drink safety, driving safety, walking safety, room security, knowing your campus, your friends and your frenemies. We talk about "secondary crime scenes". (One of the scariest words in Law Enforcement.) we talk about their summers, dating boys, watching how those young men treat their moms, their sisters their friends, if they're nicer to the cute girls than they are to others - because they're going to treat you in exactly the same two-faced way. And watch their lips, ladies, if they're moving, they're - and I'd point to the group, and they all yell the answer.

We talk about anything and everything, there's questions and answers, and the only way to answer them is with the truth. And by the time the Q and A part of it comes, you've been so open, they'll know if you're lying.

The first class I did was so well received, I was called back the next year. The place was packed, standing room only, people crammed in everywhere. Even some parents. And the local news was there (not in a bad way) but we (principle and administrators and myself) wouldn't let them in until the first part - with unconventional language, was over.

Probably couldn't do it that way today, probably get in trouble, and I don't encourage anyone to use the language I used - you have to know how to do that, there's a certain knack to it. But it's the way I always taught my own female students, and the way I always will.

 

[Justin Chang]

Haven't been on this thread in a while. Been busy doing important stuff.....reading other threads.

Wasn't going to post this, it's different than the norm and will probably get some tsk, tsks, probably won't read well in print, but it worked in real life, year after year. So, anyway...

I never did a self defense seminar for people other than Martial Artists, military and cops. But I did a lot of short self defense courses for Corporate America in the eighties, (that's where the money was, helped support the dojo) in and around the Boston area, a few in Providence Rhode Island. They were four to six week courses, twice a week, an hour and a half each class. They were after work for the employees of the hiring company, once in while they were during their work hours. The company provided the area to teach. It was real good money, and I usually had an assistant or two, a lot of times my wife.

Made lots of cash. But I stopped doing them, used the old "scheduling conflicts" excuse instead of the truth - "you're wasting your money, I don't think they're helping in the way you want them to." I was feeling guilty, irresponsible even.

What they wanted, what everyone wants (I think so, anyway) is to learn to fight off an attacker(s). I just don't think it can be done in six weeks. I felt like it was a disservice. I did start doing some courses in crime prevention, along with cops from different departments, though. I think the information helped more than what I had been doing before. Maybe if I had an idea of what fighting on the ground was about back then, it could have been different, better, more complete. But I had no experience there until the early nineties, so I don't know.

Then I got called and asked to speak to a girls graduating high school that was heading away to college. So I did, didn't accept any cash, did it as a public service. I had been recommended by a former student who had ties to the school. I guess he told them what to expect. (but, surprisingly, they asked me anyway) I ended up doing these frequently.

I'd show up, dressed a certain way, very polite, quiet and smiling. It was usually a large group of young women, two or three graduating senior classes from several schools. Three or four hundred kids. They knew I was in law enforcement and taught self defense. A dozen or so teachers and administrators, from the attending schools, were standing around the walls. I made it a point to introduce myself to all staff before it started, chatting about this and that, trying to make them comfy.

I would address the girls with a quick intro, very straight laced, wishing them well on their way to college, such an important time of their lives blah, blah, blah. By this point they figured I was as boring as their least favorite teacher. I'd usually be on a stage, at a podium, but then I'd start to walk around, making the kids a little uncomfortable. (no microphone)

"As I've stated, I work as a federal law enforcement officer. In my duties we work with people in the Behavioral Sciences. They've taught us a lot. We profile people. We learn warning signs, eye signals, postures - we read "the tells". Then I'd go into a couple minute spiel about "tells".

"What I'd like to share with you today is a one hundred percent, foolproof method of determining if a young man is lying to you. There is a "tell". And this tell is ALWAYS there, and this tell is NEVER wrong." (pause for dramatic effect as my voice rose)

"And, I promise, I'm going to share that information with you. You will all know and remember it before you leave today. But, first, let's talk about something else. Let's talk about men." Giggles, rustling in the seats, a cheer or two, as I turn my back and walk towards the stage again, then turn.

"Every man that has ever met you since you were twelve years old has thought about f-king you. Every single one, even if it's only for a hundredth of a second. It's what they do, it's what they are, it's biologically hard wired."

And, yes, that's the word I always used, pure shock value, pure truth. And if you don't think I have one hundred percent of their attention by now, you don't know young women. And believe it or not, once their surprise and shock wore off, now I had their trust. (I've spoken to many of these young women, years later)

"And now you're going away to a new place, a new school, with new men you don't know. Wouldn't it be a good idea to know that "tell" I mentioned, to KNOW when a young man is lying to you? So, what do you look for, what is that one indicator that the young man is one hundred percent lying to you?

"His LIPS ARE MOVING. If his lips are moving, he is lying his *** off."

There is much laughter at this point, some applause, and the teachers, who looked like they were going to stroke out a minute ago, almost start to relax. Almost.

"So lets talk about crime against women. Preventing crime and fighting against crime. Do you know what a sexual predator looks like?" I walk around pointing at various girls, "Do you know, do you, how about you?"

"He looks like me. He looks like your best friend. He looks like your teacher, your neighbor, your mailman, your favorite cousin, He looks like everyone and anyone you know. He is usually sweet, charming and witty. Sometimes he's really cute, a big shot at school, the kind of guy you want to be around, the kind of guy you want to be seen with."

"I'm sure you've all heard about court case that involve sexual assault. Where the woman said no, and things were supposed to stop. Close proximity is not the place to say stop. If you're already on thin ice in the middle of a river, it's far more difficult to stay safe and warm than if you didn't drive your car onto that ice in the first place. (I'm walking away at this point, then quickly turn and mimic a girl) "But Jenny said it was okay"!" (laughter) We all have friends who said it was (air quotes) "okay", don't we ladies?" (eating out of my hand at this point)

Let's talk about other things you've heard in the news, about sexual assault against unconscious women. There's really only two ways to become unconscious, on your own, or by somebody else.

ON YOUR OWN......do you really want to get so drunk you couldn't save your best friend or little brothers life if all you had to do was pick up a phone? So drunk that you couldn't run out a door if the building caught fire? Really, is that what you want? (then I say, "Don't answer that!")

Let's talk about unconscious by somebody else's hand. Somebody spikes your drink. You get a roofie. This is kind of a new phenomena, ya? Didn't have to deal with it in my day. (I usually walk around with my head down for a few seconds)

Do you know when Phohibition was? (then I usually ask if they know WHAT it was)
Prohibition started in 1920. My father was a bartender since BEFORE prohibition. He warned me about spiked drinks when I was a kid. He was warned about it by older bartenders when he was a young man. So, new? Not hardly. More prevalent? Probably, or maybe we just hear about it more because there's more media. So when that slick young thing that's making you swoon, asks you, can I get you a drink? what was the tell that made you know he was lying???? Together, now, ladies, his....and they all yell out LIPS ARE MOVING!"

This goes on for about an hour. Talking about drink safety, driving safety, walking safety, room security, knowing your campus, your friends and your frenemies. We talk about "secondary crime scenes". (One of the scariest words in Law Enforcement.) we talk about their summers, dating boys, watching how those young men treat their moms, their sisters their friends, if they're nicer to the cute girls than they are to others - because they're going to treat you in exactly the same two-faced way. And watch their lips, ladies, if they're moving, they're - and I'd point to the group, and they all yell the answer.

We talk about anything and everything, there's questions and answers, and the only way to answer them is with the truth. And by the time the Q and A part of it comes, you've been so open, they'll know if you're lying.

The first class I did was so well received, I was called back the next year. The place was packed, standing room only, people crammed in everywhere. Even some parents. And the local news was there (not in a bad way) but we (principle and administrators and myself) wouldn't let them in until the first part - with unconventional language, was over.

Probably couldn't do it that way today, probably get in trouble, and I don't encourage anyone to use the language I used - you have to know how to do that, there's a certain knack to it. But it's the way I always taught my own female students, and the way I always will.

Thank you for sharing! I would have loved to attend your seminar. I have to say though, as guilty as you felt for taking their money for your 6 week course I am sure everyone left with at least some new knowledge on how to defend themselves.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The video fits the argument so is valid. Whether or not it fits your training is apparently argumentative.


It doesnt fit my training either because martial artists citing physics is generally bloody stupid considering the person using the physics may not understand it and the person learning the physics may not understand it.

There's nothing stupid about citing physics. It's a science that includes force, acceleration, and other matters that are directly applicable to what we do. It would be stupid to speak outside one's own knowledge on anything, but not to use applicable science within one's own understanding.

As for the student not understanding it, that's the point of teaching it. If we didn't teach anything someone didn't already understand, we wouldn't teach much.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you can understand a science without studying that science?

I never said I didn't study it. I said it wasn't my area of study (a different thing). Basic physics isn't terribly complicated (though some of the math can be). Understanding force equations, leverage equations, and acceleration/deceleration equations doesn't require an advanced degree in physics.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know that I agree. I mean, if you were actually up front about how little, practical information they could get from a 2 hour session, you wouldn't have anyone attend. I can imagine someone coming in and saying, "Hey, I'm interested in hearing from you what I could easily watch for free on eHow."

I agree, but I didn't think that was what this thread is about. I'll also admit that I think seminars are largely a waste of time. They're a way for guys to make some quick cash. Most valuable thing about seminars is the networking.

Thinking about this a little more, my opinion is that if there is any value to a 2 hour intro to self defense it would be marketed as a demonstration and recruiting event. If you were marketing it as this, there could be value as it would give people an introduction to your system, and then they can make a (hopefully) informed decision about whether to sign up for classes. Because, after all, you aren't actually selling self defense. You're selling your system, whether that's as a grappler, a ninja, a kung fu master, or whatever else you might be teaching.

I tend to agree with you on this, Steve. If the focus is on physical defense (rather than delivering information about avoidance, cues, etc.), I'm not sure there's much of substance that can be accomplished in 2 hours (really, about 90 minutes of training - just one of my regular classes) with people who don't already know the subject.

If it was a seminar to give people some new stuff to work on (experienced martial artists, etc.) that would be a different ball game.