More Wing Chun Boxing!

[KPM]

The other thread was getting kind of long and rambling. So I thought I would put these videos on a new thread. I've been meaning to shoot some new videos with my guys, but have had a hard time getting them together when the camera was around. So I went ahead and filmed today with my faithful buddy BOB. I will still try and get some footage with a live partner later!

 

[Martial D]

Nice vids as always. One thing though, that sinking extended arm as kick defense move...

Exactly what sort of kick is that meant to stop?

 

[KPM]

Nice vids as always. One thing though, that sinking extended arm as kick defense move...

Exactly what sort of kick is that meant to stop?

Not meant to "stop" the kick, meant to deflect as you are stepping way from the kick! Works best against a kick coming straight in....like a front kick or side kick....at about mid-thigh level or higher.

 

[macher]

Good stuff. I’ve been watching videos of guy named Alan Orr and he seems to teach similar and does a lot of pressure testing.

 

[KPM]

Yeah, Alan Orr is great! His guys are probably the Wing Chun group that have been most involved in MMA competitions.

 

[KPM]

Hey Guys! On the FB forum I've gotten all kinds of flack and argument when I've pointed out the difference between "Classical" Wing Chun and "Wing Chun Boxing." I've explained that the core mechanics or "engine" behind the way a specific martial art moves is what makes it distinctive. This is how the art sends and receives force and moves about. This is what is recognizable when a western boxer or Muay Thai guy is fighting and no one doubts what method they are using. And I'm not talking about individual techniques. But several people just didn't seem to get the difference and refused to acknowledge that there is a "classical" mechanics in Wing Chun, or that they were straying away from this "classical" engine and incorporating more of a boxing/kickboxing engine. So I would ask if they thought Ip Man or his first generation students would fight the way modern Wing Chun guys had been seen to be fighting in recently posted clips. The answers weren't good, as you might imagine!

So in the clips above I demonstrated the San Sik with "Classical" mechanics or "engine" first, and then with a "boxing" engine. Do you guys have any problem telling the difference? Can you see the distinction I am making? Below is an older video where I explain what an "engine" is in regards to martial arts.

 

[Martial D]

Honestly, if you don't understand the difference between boxing power generation and WC power generation I would question your understanding of both.

However, many people have expanded what classical wing Chun means to extend to pretty much any motion the human body is capable of making. It's very hard to have a productive dialogue with such people, as they are either on their third cup of Kool aid, or they don't really understand classical Wing Chun.

 

[KPM]

Honestly, if you don't understand the difference between boxing power generation and WC power generation I would question your understanding of both.

However, many people have expanded what classical wing Chun means to extend to pretty much any motion the human body is capable of making. It's very hard to have a productive dialogue with such people, as they are either on their third cup of Kool aid, or they don't really understand classical Wing Chun.

More than once people commenting I think were students of teachers that had already made some "modernization" or "evolution" of their Wing Chun. So I think these people truly don't have a conception of what "classical" Wing Chun is supposed to be....and they don't even realize it!

 

[macher]

More than once people commenting I think were students of teachers that had already made some "modernization" or "evolution" of their Wing Chun. So I think these people truly don't have a conception of what "classical" Wing Chun is supposed to be....and they don't even realize it!

When I practiced Bagua years ago our teacher modified it very similar to Wing Chun Boxing. But I didn’t give a sh*t cause it was very effective. Other similar practitioners like Tai Chi etc made fun of us.

 

[macher]

More than once people commenting I think were students of teachers that had already made some "modernization" or "evolution" of their Wing Chun. So I think these people truly don't have a conception of what "classical" Wing Chun is supposed to be....and they don't even realize it!

Like I said in another post others used to say ‘doesn’t look like Bagua!’

Here’s the answer pertaining to Wing Chun but same principles.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Like I noted above, I'm not referring to individual techniques. That is what Alan is focusing on in this clip. Sure, Pak or Tan can be done as a punch. That's still Wing Chun. What I'm talking about is the core mechanics used to generate power. In that clip Alan is using "classical" mechanics to generate power. I was part of his on-line mentorship program for a year. It was really good and Alan stuck to "classical" mechanics.... even a better version than most! But I have to say that seeing some of his guys in MMA clips, they look like they are doing a different system. More than once, if you weren't told ahead of time which was the Wing Chun guy, you wouldn't have known! And the argument is....well, that punch was actually functioning as a Tan Sau...or a Pak Sau...etc. So its Wing Chun! But what I am seeing is a guying bouncing around on the balls of his feet, throwing wide punches from the shoulder, bobbing and weaving, and generating power by swiveling at the hip like a boxer. Its those core mechanics that count, not individual technique. And the truth of the matter seems to be this......those "boxing-like" core mechanics are what works! This is what is more instinctive to most people! This is what comes out under pressure! This is what ends being trained when anyone...including Wing Chun people.....train specifically for MMA. Yet those same people take offense if it is pointed out to them that what they are doing is not "classical" Wing Chun! What they hear is "you aren't doing Wing Chun!" What they hear is "you are doing it wrong!" I tell them no, you are doing "Wing Chun Boxing" or "Wing Chun Kickboxing" or "Wing Chun MMA." You are doing a modernized or evolved form of Wing Chun and not "classical" or "traditional" Wing Chun. That just seems like common sense, doesn't it? But the number of people that have denied that is what they are doing is surprising!

 

[KPM]

To another point Alan made in the video......He said Wing Chun applied doesn't look like the forms because you don't take the forms into the ring with you just as a Boxer doesn't take the heavy bag or focus mitts into the ring with him. But there is flaw in the logic here. When a Boxer competes he is using the same mechanics and power generation in the ring that he uses when training on the heavy bag or focus mitts. He doesn't train one way, and then fight another! However, does it make sense for a Wing Chun guy to train "classical" Wing Chun mechanics in his forms, and then resort to more of a western Boxing mechanic for power generation in the ring?

I've said before that "Wing Chun Boxing" currently exists on a spectrum. On one end of the spectrum are the guys training pretty classical Wing Chun and then including some boxing methods like hooks or high covers when sparring. On the other end of the spectrum are guys like Paul Rackemann that are doing western boxing with some Wing Chun concepts and techniques added on. My goal is to be somewhere in the middle.

 

[KPM]

Some of you might be asking yourselves...."why does it matter"? Which is a good question! One of things I have pointed out in the past is that an efficient system or fighting method should..."fight they way you train and train the way you fight." So to me, it doesn't make much sense to spend lots of time training "classical" mechanics in the forms and drills and Chi Sau, and then to abandon those "classical" mechanics when someone actually fights. And to resort to a boxing-like mechanics that they haven't been training and therefore end up not using as well as they could. That is not efficient training. However, if the goal is NOT to be a good fighter....but rather to train for the fun of it, for good exercise, and to be good at Chi Sau....then no problem! But people just need to admit to themselves and others that this is why they are training and stop trying to hold "classical" Wing Chun up as some kind "uber effective super system."

 

[macher]

Some of you might be asking yourselves...."why does it matter"? Which is a good question! One of things I have pointed out in the past is that an efficient system or fighting method should..."fight they way you train and train the way you fight." So to me, it doesn't make much sense to spend lots of time training "classical" mechanics in the forms and drills and Chi Sau, and then to abandon those "classical" mechanics when someone actually fights. And to resort to a boxing-like mechanics that they haven't been training and therefore end up not using as well as they could. That is not efficient training. However, if the goal is NOT to be a good fighter....but rather to train for the fun of it, for good exercise, and to be good at Chi Sau....then no problem! But people just need to admit to themselves and others that this is why they are training and stop trying to hold "classical" Wing Chun up as some kind "uber effective super system."

Makes a lot of sense. If the engine is western boxing then you have to base teaching and applications from that engine. The way I learned Bagua boxing was purely from western boxing mechanics. Then people will say ‘you’re trying to re-invent the wheel’.

 

[TMA17]

I don’t see how one can not see how the power mechanics are different. I think it’s hard for some to accept it probably because they are practicing it. You don’t even have to practice WC long to realize this. It’s very clear to see. I may have to reactivate my FB account to see these comments lol!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why not just to replace the WC engine by boxing engine completely?

 

[Martial D]

Why not just to replace the WC engine by boxing engine completely?

That's sorta KPMs gig.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's sorta KPMs gig.

The WC basic forms training should be modified to meet the boxing engine need. I started a thread "How to modify the WC SNT form" by adding long fist engine requirement in such as:

1. Bend your knees and then straight your knee - You can borrow force from the ground and up.
2. Rotate your body - You can transfer force from your back to your front.
3. Pull your other hand back, send your punching arm out - This is the center of the long fist engine.
4. Line up your back shoulder, chest, front shoulder, and punching arm - Your punch can have the maximum reach.

So what kind of SNT training modification will be need for boxing engine?

 

[KPM]

So what kind of SNT training modification will be need for boxing engine?

The SNT form is about stance and structure, not power generation. I still use the Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma as a foundational stance in my Wing Chun Boxing. The "boxer's pivot" for power generation works just as well from there as from any "neutral stance." So I wouldn't modify the Ip Man SNT form hardly at all. I would have the weight centered over the K1 point, not back on the heels. I wouldn't lock the pelvis forward but would keep it "neutral" and "floating." But other Wing Chun people do this as well. I would raise the "point of action" for most of the techniques from mid-sternum level to head level. But TWC already does this. I guess I'm saying I would do TWC's SNT form.

 

[drop bear]

Honestly, if you don't understand the difference between boxing power generation and WC power generation I would question your understanding of both.

However, many people have expanded what classical wing Chun means to extend to pretty much any motion the human body is capable of making. It's very hard to have a productive dialogue with such people, as they are either on their third cup of Kool aid, or they don't really understand classical Wing Chun.

There is a big misconception about boxing power as people think they lean to make power. And they kind of don't.

They also walk in to position to make power like chunners.