Modern Arnis and Soke Boards

[The Last Legionary]

Hey Mike,

Was I not getting acknowledgement prior to the trip. Yes, mostly from peers and juniors. From seniors, not really. They have better things to do than to follow my career. "Does acknowledgement require a fancy title or is skill alone enough to acknowledge someone?" REQUIRE? No. Do I appreciate it? Yes. It's like the difference between knowing you are good enough to be a black belt and undergoing the test and becoming a black belt.

Yours,
Dan

Dan,
That was the answer I was looking for, not what as in your previous reply that you pointed to. I do have a couple of questions though.
1: Your test was an hour, being part verbal and part physical, yet you sad that Bram Frank's was 3 hours long.
1A: Why the difference in duration? Surely a test for Grandmaster should take longer, considering that some blackbelt tests are 4+ hours long.
1B: Could you have failed the test? Meaning, was it a real test, or simply a demonstration?
2: Who was on the board viewing your test?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dan,
That was the answer I was looking for, not what as in your previous reply that you pointed to. I do have a couple of questions though.
1: Your test was an hour, being part verbal and part physical, yet you sad that Bram Frank's was 3 hours long.

Correct.

1A: Why the difference in duration? Surely a test for Grandmaster should take longer, considering that some blackbelt tests are 4+ hours long.

Don't know. A POSSIBLE reason is that my pedigree, my time in the arts and list of accomplishments made it clear from the get go that I was legitimate. I do know that Bram is less well known than I am in the general martial arts community and some of the testing board hadn't seen him move. From what I understand, they blew off a number of applicants prior to this event - told them not to test.

1B: Could you have failed the test? Meaning, was it a real test, or simply a demonstration?

For me it was a test. As to failing, quite possibly if I was a complete screw up physically or if it showed that I padded my resume. These guys are no-nonsense guys who have very little time for fakes or screw offs.

2: Who was on the board viewing your test?

Sensei Phil Little, Prof. Gary Dill & GM Frank Sanchez conducted the orals. GM Frank Sanchez, Prof. Gary Dill and GM Bram Frank conducted the physical.

Any other questions before I close this discussion down with a smile?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[The Last Legionary]

Correct.

Don't know. A POSSIBLE reason is that my pedigree, my time in the arts and list of accomplishments made it clear from the get go that I was legitimate. I do know that Bram is less well known than I am in the general martial arts community and some of the testing board hadn't seen him move. From what I understand, they blew off a number of applicants prior to this event - told them not to test.

Now that is an interesting note. Most of the boards I've seen are about collecting their fees over quality.

For me it was a test. As to failing, quite possibly if I was a complete screw up physically or if it showed that I padded my resume. These guys are no-nonsense guys who have very little time for fakes or screw offs.

Sensei Phil Little, Prof. Gary Dill & GM Frank Sanchez conducted the orals. GM Frank Sanchez, Prof. Gary Dill and GM Bram Frank conducted the physical.

Dill I know, Little and Sanchez I don't, and Frank I avoid as I've heard he Bennihana's his Ukes, and I don't go well with fish. Time for some Googling for me.

Any other questions before I close this discussion down with a smile?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

For now, no. I'll think of something later after I get done smacking a Datu on his rear. Thank you for the answers. :cheers:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I got a PM asking me to comment here. Fine. I'll comment, as me, not as the "Owner".

Regarding Dan's promotion:
Dan, I disagree with the idea of these "Soke" boards. Sorry, bit of a purist at heart here, and they ain't real "sokes" any more than I'm a large busted Swedish woman named Inga. But, they are better at evaluating someone's martial skill than I, by a long shot. So, while I disagree with the title usage, if they say you're the goods, then hey, congrats and pats on the back and all that good stuff. Personally, I don't think you, or anyone needs the paper as your real rank shows on the floor, and in the other works you do spreading the arts to new generations of students. Dan puts out a bunch of books and videos and is out there like him or not. Most of his detractors hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him so I consider their comments worthless.

Regarding Tim's 7th and 9th's:
Old news, I'm so tired and bored with those arguments that I wrote the damn faq on them. It's on Wiki (where his entry was repeatedly defaced by a couple of petty individuals from WNY), it's on FMATalk, it's on Martialtalk, and it was posted repeatedly on Jerome Barbers old list. Bottom line, he was promoted by an organizational board of his peers. recognize it or not, he's still the highest tested in years under Remy. Most of his detractors never did test under Remy, or did for low rank. They also don't like Tim Hartman so I question their ability to accurately and objectively judge his skill.

Regarding Tim's 9th and GM rank in Kombatan:
Tim can explain it. My only comment is, I'm sure that GM Ernesto is better qualified to judge who he will issue rank to in his own art, than those who have little to no experience with it.

Tim in General:
Tim teaches internationally, and puts out videos and is all over the internet with his name and arts out there like him or not. Most of his detractors again hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him, and won't even post a simple YouTube video of themselves so again, I consider their comments worthless.


Beyond that, when it comes to Modern Arnis politics, and all that ********, leave me the **** alone. I'll gladly shoot pictures, build websites, listen to war stories, and when possible learn cool techniques, but as far as the politics and bad blood and game playing, I'm not anyone's pawn, and I'm not interested in the gaming. Been there, done that, grew the **** up. K? Thnx.

Now if those arguing will excuse me, I have a couple hundred photos to work through from this past weekends training camp.

 

[Morgan]

Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior.

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?

A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.

Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it.

Morgan

 

[MJS]

A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.

Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it.

Morgan

From reading some posts here, it seems that the concerns or questions are...why would you want to promote yourself? Why would you want to take a title if you didn't earn it? Why would you test for rank IFO a group that may not have people on the board that train in the art you're testing for?

So, sure, someone could promote themselves, test in front of a soke board or anything else...but, as I said in another post...its that person that has to live with it. Someone could walk around with the title Ultimate Supreme GM of the World...I don't care. That does not impress me. I've listed what I look for in other posts, so I'm not going to post it again here.

 

[Archangel M]

Well. Im not up on all the inside **** here, but what is the big deal about some martial artist having his rank ratified by guys with the clout to do so? Thats whats going on here right? It sounds like theres some debate over who has that clout.

If I ran the world I would say that you can only be promoted by someone of higher rank than yourself. If that person doesnt exist then there needs to be some consensus amongst the highest ranking people in the entire system as to who is going to be in charge.

 

[The Last Legionary]

The issue is legitimacy and if the one judging is qualified to do so.
"Soke" is a Japanese term. It's not Polish. It's not Spanish. It's Japanese. Dan-o went in front of a SOKE board. Why not a Pharaoh's board, or a Deacon's board? How about a Knight's board? Then he could be Sir-Dan-o. (Dani-o? Wait. She's a porn star I think.) Heck, Kaith's a frickin God, certainly he could make Dan a Pope or something. Soke is not an interchangable term for either "founder" or "grandmaster". Only the uneducated and ill-informed hold to that view.

You get rank several ways. But in reality, there's only 2. You are given it, or you take it.
If you are given it, how it is given, and by who matters.
Dan was recognized as a grandmaster by a board of experienced martial artists, who are misusing a cultural title. I question the rest of their judgements, but not their skills.

If you simply take it, and say "Today, I shall be known as GrandMaster" then you have to live up to that title, by further developing your skills, spreading whatever it is you are GM of, etc.

My question for Dan here is a simple one. WHO promoted him to Grandmaster rank? Not who called you it at a camp, not who recognized you as one, but who tapped him on the shoulders with a sword (or cane) and said "you are now a grandmaster."

I also still am waiting for Tim to provide his promised reply to my earlier questions.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Well. Im not up on all the inside **** here, but what is the big deal about some martial artist having his rank ratified by guys with the clout to do so? Thats whats going on here right? It sounds like theres some debate over who has that clout.

If I ran the world I would say that you can only be promoted by someone of higher rank than yourself. If that person doesnt exist then there needs to be some consensus amongst the highest ranking people in the entire system as to who is going to be in charge.

But Dan's system is MA80, and he's the highest ranking person in it. So, who can promote him in his own system?

A brain surgeon is not qualified to judge a dentist, yet both are medical doctors.
Why would a TKD master be qualified to judge an FMA master, considering one art is high kicks and the other sticks and knives? The requirements for the two systems of martial arts are quite different. That is the problem with "soke" boards. Sure the core basics are pretty much similar, but then again a GM isn't being judged on his basics, but his advanced material and concepts. A family portrait photographer is not the right person to judge a fine-art-nude photographer, nor is a pro golfer qualified to judge a mini-golf champion, nor is a master house painter qualified to judge my watercolors or oils.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I don't think anyone here is saying that they aren't legit because of the intentional misuse of the term. But I do think it's a fair concern. There are a hundred different halls and councils and boards out there, so I guess it's a matter of whatever paper you feel the need for, and all that.

The paper is worth what backs it. If it's money, it's usually precious metals, gems, or plain faith. In the case of a martial arts rank, it's only valid when the issuer is of value.
I question the value of any award or rank from any organization that misuses cultural titles. To me, it's all resume padding. Most of those on such boards, don't need it, except for marketing purposes, because the average "Karate Mom" thinks that someone having 10 high level black belts is a better teacher than someone with just 1. Ever see someone with 10, 20, 30 or even 40+ blackbelts? Think they really know all that stuff and really went through all the material? If you do, let me know. I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about buying.

 

[Dan Anderson]

1.The issue is legitimacy and if the one judging is qualified to do so.
"Soke" is a Japanese term. It's not Polish. It's not Spanish. It's Japanese. Dan-o went in front of a SOKE board.

2.My question for Dan here is a simple one. WHO promoted him to Grandmaster rank? Not who called you it at a camp, not who recognized you as one, but who tapped him on the shoulders with a sword (or cane) and said "you are now a grandmaster."

LL,

1. The name of the group is Soke. You are being awfully literal and not conceptual. There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.
2. Re-read about 6 posts above the one I'm quoting and the answer is there in plain English.

Dan

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Dan,
If you'd like I can dub the an Earl or something. Next time you're out this way, stop in, and I can tap you on the shoulder with a SmakStik.


btw, here's Dans answer to LL's question.

Was I promoted to GM? No. The council doesn't promote someone to Grand Master. They feel you are already a Grand Master when you test for induction onto the council. Did I self promote? Not in the way of formal declaration and announcement. Have I considered myself one? For the last couple years, yes. Do I consider myself one now? As regards MA-80 and American Freestyle Karate (established 1977), yes.

As another aside, for $50 I'll send anyone who asks a certificate certifying them as a reasonably high rank in Kungate. $100 for a 10th dan. On genuine paper. Really. Hey, I can do that. I'm the recognized GM of that system.

 

[MJS]

Well. Im not up on all the inside **** here, but what is the big deal about some martial artist having his rank ratified by guys with the clout to do so? Thats whats going on here right? It sounds like theres some debate over who has that clout.

If I ran the world I would say that you can only be promoted by someone of higher rank than yourself. If that person doesnt exist then there needs to be some consensus amongst the highest ranking people in the entire system as to who is going to be in charge.

Just so I'm getting this right here....are you saying that just because someone has a high rank, that their word should be good enough to vouch for someone else? Sorry, but if thats what you're saying, I disagree. Yes, Dan went in front of some Soke panel, etc., but if nobody on the board had an Arnis rank, their opinion is moot. I don't care if 30 10th dans were sitting there...if not one of them had Arnis background, their opinion means nothing. Thats like me, a 3rd in Kenpo, sitting on a TKD test board. What the hell do I know about TKD? Nothing! Sure, a kick is a kick, but I don't know the kata, the SD, etc. If you're going for rank in Arnis, the ENTIRE panel needs to be Arnis, not 2 or 3 out of the 10 sitting there. I tested in the beginning of this year for my black in Arnis. Every single person on the board was an Arnis black belt.

But like I said, in the end, I know what I do, and I know what others do. Does it concern me? Technically no, because I test in front of people who are doing my art. But, it gives a bit of a bad mark to the art as a whole. People see soemthing and they assume that everyone is like that. People will assume that an Arnis rank test is done in front of a soke board.

 

[bobquinn]

Folks,
You are all getting it wrong!
It's all about respect and I have yet to see in these post the respect for those that are our elders. It is obvious that the apple has not fell from the tree. Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also.

B Qui

 

[Archangel M]

Just so I'm getting this right here....are you saying that just because someone has a high rank, that their word should be good enough to vouch for someone else? Sorry, but if thats what you're saying, I disagree. Yes, Dan went in front of some Soke panel, etc., but if nobody on the board had an Arnis rank, their opinion is moot. I don't care if 30 10th dans were sitting there...if not one of them had Arnis background, their opinion means nothing. Thats like me, a 3rd in Kenpo, sitting on a TKD test board. What the hell do I know about TKD? Nothing! Sure, a kick is a kick, but I don't know the kata, the SD, etc. If you're going for rank in Arnis, the ENTIRE panel needs to be Arnis, not 2 or 3 out of the 10 sitting there. I tested in the beginning of this year for my black in Arnis. Every single person on the board was an Arnis black belt.

But like I said, in the end, I know what I do, and I know what others do. Does it concern me? Technically no, because I test in front of people who are doing my art. But, it gives a bit of a bad mark to the art as a whole. People see soemthing and they assume that everyone is like that. People will assume that an Arnis rank test is done in front of a soke board.

Well, I meant of higher rank in your direct lineage, but to be truthful Im just throwing ideas out there and trying to get a handle on this issue as Ive never really cared about it or thought about it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Folks,
You are all getting it wrong!
It's all about respect and I have yet to see in these post the respect for those that are our elders. It is obvious that the apple has not fell from the tree. Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also.

B Qui

Bob,
I don't need to see fancy titles to respect someone. Of course, I got hammered because I held a door open for an old man once because some people think he should be treated like dirt for making some controvercial claims. I think theres a couple issues here, but rspect isn't one of them. I haven't seen anyone say that all those mentioned/referred to were dirt, just that they could have used a different title than to assume one from Japan. Dan's being recognized by some board of people I don't know means less to me than the fact that last time I saw him, he took some time and gave me some tips and tales and was a pretty nice guy to chat with, and he was on the mats not sitting on the sidelines at the camp. I disagree with some of what Dan does, I'm sure it's mutual, but that's ok. We still respect each other to do so and remain on good terms.

 

[bobquinn]

Bob,
Thank you the dialog.
I, in no way refered to anyone as dirt and not referanced anyone with personel disrespect. The bottom line is this the names that have been mentioned have done more to promote the arts and the depth of what it is to be a Martial Artist and not a Partial Artist. My hat is off to the likes of Tim. H, Dan. A, and Bram. F, having to know all of them for many years and seen first hand the respect they show to all levels of artist. My true intent was to speak of my own knowledge of these true masters!
Again, thank you for your continue dialog. You Bob have kept to remind us, through your communications, that we must remain open minded.

Bob Quinn

 

[MJS]

Well, I meant of higher rank in your direct lineage, but to be truthful Im just throwing ideas out there and trying to get a handle on this issue as Ive never really cared about it or thought about it.

Well, in that case, I would agree then.

 

[Archangel M]

Well, in that case, I would agree then.

No problem

Im also starting to wonder if this GM title is even necessary. According to that wiki page, most eastern schools dont make a big deal out of it. Whats the big deal here ?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

No problem

Im also starting to wonder if this GM title is even necessary. According to that wiki page, most eastern schools dont make a big deal out of it. Whats the big deal here ?

Ego and Marketing.