Grandmaster/Datu Hartman Promotion Questions

[bobquinn]

Hey Dick,
BQ here we have alot of likes other then the american made thought. Odd training in asian arts! I admire your willingness to hit the mat! Only better colors then Black and Blue are the Red,White & Blue! Hartman,Anderson & Frank are the real deal. Been there, done that. Hey your post makes for, You know your a red neck!

Robert Quinn

 

[Morgan]

You don't read too good do ya boy?
Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.



In any event, you're a few years too late for that debate. *** I said, only a couple of wannabe hacks in WNY really care about that. They're too busy spiting on GM Presas now, which shows more of their true character.

Speaking of which, how do you know who has what relations with who?

Of course, we can define "student" as "someone who learned something from someone else", but that would make my own list so large it would make even my head spin. We can also say that only someones real teacher should promote them, but that would invalidate so many of these "promotions by rank boards" that go on these days, now wouldn't it?

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Chew on that for a few.

Thanks for your reply and the yes/no answer. There's no need to
fine tune the "student" defintion. It was neither helpful nor harmful.
Your statements are appriciated.

Morgan

 

[Morgan]

Morgan,

Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto is best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.

I knew my announcement would light up the switchboard. How's that for showing my age?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dear SM Anderson,

I wrote the following in a recent post:

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.

With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion. Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point. Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation.

Morgan

 

[The Last Legionary]

Speaking of Bram Frank, is this the same person who on at least one occasion brought a live blade onto the training floor and carved up his assistant? I question the judgement of anyone who would do such a thing.

I'm also reserving my comments until Tim recovers from his camp this past weekend and posts his reply to my questions.

I will say this. If he was promoted by students from his school I'd consider that an invalid promotion, to say the least.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Dear SM Anderson,

I wrote the following in a recent post:

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.

I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.

With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion. Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point. Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation.

Morgan

Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior.

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I got a PM asking me to comment here. Fine. I'll comment, as me, not as the "Owner".

Regarding Dan's promotion:
Dan, I disagree with the idea of these "Soke" boards. Sorry, bit of a purist at heart here, and they ain't real "sokes" any more than I'm a large busted Swedish woman named Inga. But, they are better at evaluating someone's martial skill than I, by a long shot. So, while I disagree with the title usage, if they say you're the goods, then hey, congrats and pats on the back and all that good stuff. Personally, I don't think you, or anyone needs the paper as your real rank shows on the floor, and in the other works you do spreading the arts to new generations of students. Dan puts out a bunch of books and videos and is out there like him or not. Most of his detractors hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him so I consider their comments worthless.

Regarding Tim's 7th and 9th's:
Old news, I'm so tired and bored with those arguments that I wrote the damn faq on them. It's on Wiki (where his entry was repeatedly defaced by a couple of petty individuals from WNY), it's on FMATalk, it's on Martialtalk, and it was posted repeatedly on Jerome Barbers old list. Bottom line, he was promoted by an organizational board of his peers. recognize it or not, he's still the highest tested in years under Remy. Most of his detractors never did test under Remy, or did for low rank. They also don't like Tim Hartman so I question their ability to accurately and objectively judge his skill.

Regarding Tim's 9th and GM rank in Kombatan:
Tim can explain it. My only comment is, I'm sure that GM Ernesto is better qualified to judge who he will issue rank to in his own art, than those who have little to no experience with it.

Tim in General:
Tim teaches internationally, and puts out videos and is all over the internet with his name and arts out there like him or not. Most of his detractors again hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him, and won't even post a simple YouTube video of themselves so again, I consider their comments worthless.


Beyond that, when it comes to Modern Arnis politics, and all that ********, leave me the **** alone. I'll gladly shoot pictures, build websites, listen to war stories, and when possible learn cool techniques, but as far as the politics and bad blood and game playing, I'm not anyone's pawn, and I'm not interested in the gaming. Been there, done that, grew the **** up. K? Thnx.

Now if those arguing will excuse me, I have a couple hundred photos to work through from this past weekends training camp.

 

[bobquinn]

Thank you Mr. Hubbard,

Better have never been spoken.

Bob Q

 

[Morgan]

Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior.

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?

A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.

Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it.

Morgan

 

[MJS]

A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.

Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it.

Morgan

From reading some posts here, it seems that the concerns or questions are...why would you want to promote yourself? Why would you want to take a title if you didn't earn it? Why would you test for rank IFO a group that may not have people on the board that train in the art you're testing for?

So, sure, someone could promote themselves, test in front of a soke board or anything else...but, as I said in another post...its that person that has to live with it. Someone could walk around with the title Ultimate Supreme GM of the World...I don't care. That does not impress me. I've listed what I look for in other posts, so I'm not going to post it again here.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi All,

This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated. I am reprinting it here without his permission.

And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows
the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
game plan. Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
practices should be pure is thin morality.

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

Damn. Wish I had said that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[The Game]

Hi All,

This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated. I am reprinting it here without his permission.

And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows
the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
game plan. Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
practices should be pure is thin morality.

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

Damn. Wish I had said that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Paul Martin. Isn't he one of the people who were banned from here a while back for excessive **** stirring? *Checks Notes* Yup. Has an obsessive dislike of Hartman? *checks Notes* Yup. Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.

Tells me all I need to know about Mr. Martin's integrity, ethics, and all that jazz.

Now, lets decode his little "morality play".

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
game plan. Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
practices should be pure is thin morality.

For those who don't know, Hartman is a member of NAPMA (says so on his website.)
NAPMA has materials referring to a Little Dragons program, which Hartman offers. (says so on his website)
That's the little crack about "McDojo franchise game plan"
He (Hartman) also has a sign that says "Karate" over his school. (See picture of school on his website).
That's the Karate crack.

So that middle paragraph is typical "Barberite" crap, where it's usually little more than "lets be sneaky and take shots at the only successful FMA school in WNY" since we can't hack it ourselves and we're jealous buttholes.

As to the comments here:

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

They sure do take a lot of shots at people on this site, it's staff, it's owner, and so on. But of course, that whole fairness clause doesn't apply here.

Sorry Dan, but those guys are fricken losers, and weree banned from here for very good reasons. Nice to see them still being what they are all this time later.

Of course, more people will read that hre in a ay than read it there in a year. They've got what, 66 readers, most of which never post, and a dozen of which are just the same 4 losers posting to themselves?

Their opinions on martial arts matters aren't worth recycled cat litter.

I still like you though.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dick,

The key point here I wanted to make is that to disfavor a group based on a name is basically unfair. The middle section which is a blast against whoever (whether Tim or not) ISN'T the point I wanted to make and it is my mistake for including that section. There are many dojos which have programs that are excellent and many have the same titled programs which are not so good and to lump them all together without inspection is unfair. So, I'll re-post:

And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point...

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
parts of the martial arts world as well.

This is the point I wanted to make.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Paul Martin. ...... Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.

I missed the above comment earlier.
A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.

1. The name of the group is Soke. You are being awfully literal and not conceptual. There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.

My reply to this, as I am a purist would be that studying Latin doesn't make me a Roman. Why would studying a Japanese art entitle me to a Japanese Cultural title?

Let me quote William M. Bodiford's excellent article on the topic "Soke: Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements"

Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster."

Personally, I think fromm here on out, I'll just ignore that particullar issue. I mean, in all seriousness, given the choice of arguing on the internet or being on the beach taking photos of girls in bikinis, I know what I'll enjoy more.

 

[The Game]

I missed the above comment earlier.
A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.

Ok, fine. I'm sorry for the honest misunderstanding on my part.
The rest of my opinion of that group however stands.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

First of all I think we need to split the thread.

LL you wrote:
Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a Grandmaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork.
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.

If you're basing things on how many times I've mentioned GGM Ernesto and Kombatan on the net, then you don't know what you're talking about. Let me lay this out for you.
1999:
GGM Ernesto was hospitalized in the PI and was unsure if he was going to survive. The Kombatan people reached out to me to see if I could get Prof Remy to visit him in case his condition was fatal. I called Remy in the PI and he reached out to his sick brother. Fortunately Ernesto's condition was not fatal.
2000:
I met GGM Ernesto for the first time in Maine. My Kombatan training began. Later that year I traveled to Lake Tahoe to attend another Kombatan seminar featuring GGM Ernesto and met Rick Manglinong as well.
2001:
I went to Reno and trained with GMM Ernesto again. At this event I formalized having Rick Manglinong teach at my 2002 camp.

2002:
I had Rick M. teach at the first WMAA Camp. Since then he has only missed one of the Buffalo camps and has taught at other events with me.

I have had a lot of exposure to Kombatan in the last nine years. Don’t you think I trained during this time? I don’t log my training sessions on line for everyone’s approval. I’m surprised that you didn’t question my promotion to Master Instructor in Bando Stick Fighting. Using your logic I only mentioned Gyi or his art a few times on the net, so I must not have trained it.

You quoted me here:

10-13-2001
“Ernesto has his own art Kombatan. It is not the same program."
Since then I have a greater understanding of the art. What I didn’t realize was that GGM Ernesto was teaching what was unique to Kombatan, not what is in common. After years of training and having access to the rank curriculum I realized that there is a lot in common, which only makes sense seeing that Prof Remy taught his two younger brothers?

When GGM Ernesto promoted me part of it was based on knowing the program that had much in common with his own as well as what I have done in and for his older brother's art.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ADMIN NOTICE
This thread is an excerpt from the "Questions regarding MA-80"
Please go there to discuss Dan Anderson's MA80 system.
This thread is intended to focus on Datu Tim Hartman's promotions.

Thank you.

 

[The Last Legionary]

First of all I think we need to split the thread.

LL you wrote:
Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a Grandmaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork.
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.

If you're basing things on how many times I've mentioned GGM Ernesto and Kombatan on the net, then you don't know what you're talking about. Let me lay this out for you.
1999:
GGM Ernesto was hospitalized in the PI and was unsure if he was going to survive. The Kombatan people reached out to me to see if I could get Prof Remy to visit him in case his condition was fatal. I called Remy in the PI and he reached out to his sick brother. Fortunately Ernesto's condition was not fatal.
2000:
I met GGM Ernesto for the first time in Maine. My Kombatan training began. Later that year I traveled to Lake Tahoe to attend another Kombatan seminar featuring GGM Ernesto and met Rick Manglinong as well.
2001:
I went to Reno and trained with GMM Ernesto again. At this event I formalized having Rick Manglinong teach at my 2002 camp.

2002:
I had Rick M. teach at the first WMAA Camp. Since then he has only missed one of the Buffalo camps and has taught at other events with me.

I have had a lot of exposure to Kombatan in the last nine years. Don’t you think I trained during this time? I don’t log my training sessions on line for everyone’s approval. I’m surprised that you didn’t question my promotion to Master Instructor in Bando Stick Fighting. Using your logic I only mentioned Gyi or his art a few times on the net, so I must not have trained it.

You quoted me here:

10-13-2001
“Ernesto has his own art Kombatan. It is not the same program."
Since then I have a greater understanding of the art. What I didn’t realize was that GGM Ernesto was teaching what was unique to Kombatan, not what is in common. After years of training and having access to the rank curriculum I realized that there is a lot in common, which only makes sense seeing that Prof Remy taught his two younger brothers?

When GGM Ernesto promoted me part of it was based on knowing the program that had much in common with his own as well as what I have done in and for his older brother's art.

Tim, Thanks for the reply. I'm short on time, so will have some more questions shortly.

Kaith, stick to bikini pics.

Game, your off the mark there.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Tim,
Had time to think.

I didn't question your promotion in Bando because I wasn't aware of it, but considering how often you bring Gyi in it makes more sense than your Kombatan promotion.

Here is my questions, I'll have more later.
1 - How do the guys who are pure Kombatan feel about you fast tracking to a GM title in their art?

2 - Correct me if this is wrong.
You have a GrandMaster title and 9th dan in Kombatan
You have a 9th dan from your organization
You have a Datu title and 6th dan from Remy Presas in Modern Arnis
You have a Master Instructor rank in Bando Stick Fighting from Gyi.
And what rank in Balintawak from I assume Ted Buot?

3 - Who taught you Kombatan?

 

[Rich Parsons]

2 - Correct me if this is wrong.
You have a GrandMaster title and 9th dan in Kombatan
You have a 9th dan from your organization
You have a Datu title and 6th dan from Remy Presas in Modern Arnis
You have a Master Instructor rank in Bando Stick Fighting from Gyi.
And what rank in Balintawak from I assume Ted Buot?

All I can say and not speaking for Tim, is that Manong (GM) Ted Buot does nto give out certificates or rank in his Balintawak. It is up to each person to make it their own and to prove to others that they have it.

I do know he told some they could create study groups.

I do know that he told some to teach the art as they were taught. I was one of them. I did not think it was my place to questions the others to that studied to see which ones were on the list to teach.

Hopefully this coming from me on teh Balintawak issue will answer your question there. Or Tim can reply as well, as he is a big boy.

Thanks

 

[arnisador]

I do know that he told some to teach the art as they were taught. I was one of them.

That makes you an instructor in my book.