MMA vs TMA

[Koshiki]

Umm sorry but no. In my quest to find the tma for me after my mma closed, I visited nearly 20 of them in a 20 minute drive and NONE of them did any form of ground grappling. If its not being practiced at least once or twice a week, then its not seriously being taught and not benefiting then its not on the syllabus.

Were in goju or shorin or Ishhin ryu is the ground fighting syllabus? Were in TKD? (ATA has a ground grappling course. No clue how crappy or not it is) Were in Muay thai?

Sorry Unless it is consistently taught every week for more then 10 minutes at a time it is not really being trained.

Im not sure how you can make that statement with a straight face and actually mean it. IF tma had a valid ground syllabus then this whole thread would never exist...

My TKD system spends a great deal of time dealing with ground oriented stuff. For starters, if you train pre-sport TKD, it seems like pretty much everything ends with one or the other guy on the ground. Granted, that's not ground fighting.

Fortunately, we spend time on that too. It's not ground fighting training, though, it's how-to-not-ground fight training. And not eye gouging and hair pulling, but bridging and sweeping and yes, even barring and locking. We have a set of 10 sets of 10 "self-defense" techniques, which are really just short-cuts around bunkai straight to application to get people thinking. There are three sets against stand up hand strikes. One set against kicks. There's a set against stand up body grabs and chokes, etc. There's a set wherin you are on the ground with a standing attacker, and there are two sets where both you and the attacker are on the ground. Then there's also a seated in a chair set, a trapped against a wall set, and a knife survival set.

You know where all the ground stuff comes from. Basically BJJ and related approaches. TKD lacks it, TKD needs it, TKD should learn it from the people who do it, and BJJ guys do it best. Some of the stuff we do is modified, and it's definitely cherry-picked. For example, we almost never do the the standard legs across the body, between the leg arm bar. If we're doing that, it's one leg across the throat, one bent and tucked in the arm pit, arm barred across the bent shin or over the throat-leg, from that position, you can drop and stand immediately, with no untangling. But it's all borrowed from ground fighters. Why? Because you learn from the people who do it best!

There are differences, though, for us, having someone in guard is NOT a good place to be. It's just another place to learn to get out of and back on your feet. Hanging out there is a no no, for us.

I believe when K-man said, "TMAs don't possess basic grappling skills." He means TMA may have "stand up grappling" but don't have "ground skill grappling". I have trained TCMA all my life and there is no shame for me to admit that TCMA has no ground skill. TCMA has the ground skill that when you take your opponent down, you get into full mount or side mount as shown in the following clip.

But if a TCMA guy was thrown down and be on the bottom, the TCMA guy will have no skill to reverse the bottom position back to the top position. This is why to be able to obtain that skill from BJJ is always a good idea.

At our school, to pass high rank tests, you have to be able to get out of a high mount GnP, with full resistance. Usually a much bigger dude. No, 95% of all fights don't "go to the ground" in the sense of sustained ground grappling, but if you're there, you better learn how to get out of there, if you're touting your system as self-defense. And BJJ guys are the guys to learn from!

On a side note, a BJJ school just moved in RIGHT NEXT DOOR to my old TKD school. Some of the students there are actually trained in our system as well. I'm hoping they start visiting door to door. Could be fabulous for both schools.

 

[SENC-33]

Steve and Tony

If you were giving a seminar to a group of people on ground self defense (with zero experience in anything) and you had 3 hours to instruct them on what to do in the case that they were attacked and taken to the ground by a BJJ grappler, what would you teach them? Would you teach them a couple BJJ techniques and send them on their way hoping for the best? Would you teach them to prey to god and hope everything turns out ok? Or would you teach them to scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them? I'm talking a group of strangers with no training that will go out into the world with what you have taught them in 3 hours and never step foot in a dojo again.

 

[SENC-33]

Out of curiosity, do you advocate just going on pure natural survival instinct in all combat situations or just on the ground?

Survival instinct factors into any situation when you are being threatened (atleast it does with me). Is it nice to be able to strike effectively? YES.....Good to be able to handle a ground situation? YES. Good to be able control your emotions and adrenaline without panicking? YES. What if you had no training at all, no means to escape and your wife and kids with you facing an attacker. What would you do? You would fight for your life and that of your family. You ingrain that survival mentality into your self defense training and some grappler on top of you isn't going to shake you a hell of difference. Sorry but this is just how I see it......

 

[Steve]

Steve and Tony

If you were giving a seminar to a group of people on ground self defense (with zero experience in anything) and you had 3 hours to instruct them on what to do in the case that they were attacked and taken to the ground by a BJJ grappler, what would you teach them? Would you teach them a couple BJJ techniques and send them on their way hoping for the best? Would you teach them to prey to god and hope everything turns out ok? Or would you teach them to scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them? I'm talking a group of strangers with no training that will go out into the world with what you have taught them in 3 hours and never step foot in a dojo again.

I would teach them high percentage techniques that will be most likely to work under stress, are simple and easy to practice. Wouldn't you?

Seems to me that saying, "If your life is in danger, scrap and fight for your lives with everything you have inside you," takes about 10 seconds to "teach." Even were I to lead with that, I'd still have 2 hours 59 minutes and 50 seconds to show them something that would be potentially useful.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Steve and Tony

If you were giving a seminar to a group of people on ground self defense (with zero experience in anything) and you had 3 hours to instruct them on what to do in the case that they were attacked and taken to the ground by a BJJ grappler, what would you teach them? Would you teach them a couple BJJ techniques and send them on their way hoping for the best? Would you teach them to prey to god and hope everything turns out ok? Or would you teach them to scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them? I'm talking a group of strangers with no training that will go out into the world with what you have taught them in 3 hours and never step foot in a dojo again.

I'm wondering if we aren't having some communication difficulties with basic terminology. I'd define natural survival instincts as the stuff you would do anyway, without anybody teaching you anything. With time and effort you can replace those with trained survival responses.

With regards to your question - either way, a single 3 hour class isn't going to make much difference. I can show them some techniques, but if they don't practice them after the class is done then they won't be able to rely on them. I can tell them to "scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them", but it won't make much difference. If they are the sort of person who has that natural fighter mentality then they will be doing that regardless. If they aren't, then I'm not going to be able to permanently instill that instinct with a 3 hour class any more than I could permanently ingrain a given technique.

Survival instinct factors into any situation when you are being threatened (atleast it does with me). Is it nice to be able to strike effectively? YES.....Good to be able to handle a ground situation? YES. Good to be able control your emotions and adrenaline without panicking? YES. What if you had no training at all, no means to escape and your wife and kids with you facing an attacker. What would you do? You would fight for your life and that of your family. You ingrain that survival mentality into your self defense training and some grappler on top of you isn't going to shake you a hell of difference. Sorry but this is just how I see it......

Based on this quote, I'm guessing that by "survival mentality" and "survival instinct" you are referring to the sort of fighting spirit that keeps you from giving up and drives you do whatever necessary to win, yes? (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

If so, I agree that this is a very valuable thing to cultivate if you don't already have it naturally. I'm wondering how you recommend doing so. For me, what has worked is training where I'm put into threatening situations, given the tools to deal with them, and spending many, many hours getting used to them. I've been in the ring with opponents hitting me hard and learning to keep myself cool so I can hit back effectively. I've been trapped underneath grapplers crushing the air out of me. I've been in scenario-based simulations where I had to deal with verbal abuse, multiple attackers, hidden weapons, and so on. This has been effective for me, speaking as someone who started out rather lacking in the fighting spirit department. What has worked for you in this regard?

(BTW - my earlier posts were based on the impression I got that you were advocating a specific set of physical movements because they were "naturally what my body tells me to do." If that is what you meant by "survival instinct", then I'm going to have to disagree pretty strongly.)

 

[Steve]

Survival instinct factors into any situation when you are being threatened (atleast it does with me). Is it nice to be able to strike effectively? YES.....Good to be able to handle a ground situation? YES. Good to be able control your emotions and adrenaline without panicking? YES. What if you had no training at all, no means to escape and your wife and kids with you facing an attacker. What would you do? You would fight for your life and that of your family. You ingrain that survival mentality into your self defense training and some grappler on top of you isn't going to shake you a hell of difference. Sorry but this is just how I see it......

So, then, training in martial arts isn't really helpful at all? I'm really struggling to understand your point. Why do we train at all? Why do you train, if not to learn techniques that will serve you better than balls out panic and adrenaline fueled rage?

 

[SENC-33]

Ok let me rephrase the question.....

If either one of you (Steve and Tony) had no training experience whatsoever and you were jumped by an attacker with your own grappling experience you don't think you could escape without "serious injury"?

Obviously I believe it is better to have well rounded self defense training but both you guys seem to take on this notion that the "average" bjj practitioners ground fighting skills are impossible to overcome without those same skills.

 

[ballen0351]

Ok let me rephrase the question.....

If either one of you (Steve and Tony) had no training experience whatsoever and you were jumped by an attacker with your own grappling experience you don't think you could escape without "serious injury"?

Obviously I believe it is better to have well rounded self defense training but both you guys seem to take on this notion that the "average" bjj practitioners ground fighting skills are impossible to overcome without those same skills.

Well average BJJ practitioners ground fighting would be much much better then someone not training in ground fighting. That's their thing. There is no way on the ground I could fight off Steve and I do some ground fighting in Judo and some BJJ. But that's why I won't go to the ground with Steve or any BJJ or anyone else for that matter. Now are Steve's skills to get me to the ground better then my skills to stay off the ground? Who knows. I know my stand up skills are better then a straight BJJ guy with no cross training that's my strong suit. There is not now nor ever was a perfect art

 

[SENC-33]

Well average BJJ practitioners ground fighting would be much much better then someone not training in ground fighting. That's their thing. There is no way on the ground I could fight off Steve and I do some ground fighting in Judo and some BJJ. But that's why I won't go to the ground with Steve or any BJJ or anyone else for that matter. Now are Steve's skills to get me to the ground better then my skills to stay off the ground? Who knows. I know my stand up skills are better then a straight BJJ guy with no cross training that's my strong suit. There is not now nor ever was a perfect art

Now when you say you can't fight this guy off on the ground you are telling me you couldn't get any kind of strike in or escape if you were facing possible serious injury? What if your life was at stake? (not from steve but somebody else with intent to kill you)

 

[ballen0351]

Now when you say you can't fight this guy off on the ground you are telling me you couldn't get any kind of strike in or escape if you were facing possible serious injury? What if your life was at stake? (not from steve but somebody else with intent to kill you)

Im saying on the ground Steve or other BJJ guys have the advantage. Of course if Im on the ground im going to do what I can but I also know a good BJJ guy wants me to spaz so he can get me. So My goal is to not get on the ground to begin with or if I do not to stay there. In a real fight as you say for my life Ill do anything including bite, scratch, claw, grab genetials, fingers, toes, ect. Anyhting I can to get up. But facts are facts on the ground a BJJ guy has the advantage. Ive rolled enough to know some things not to do that he would want me to do.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ok let me rephrase the question.....

If either one of you (Steve and Tony) had no training experience whatsoever and you were jumped by an attacker with your own grappling experience you don't think you could escape without "serious injury"?

Kind of an odd question. Assuming all other factors were equal (size, strength, determination, health, weaponry, tactical factors, etc), if you magically robbed me of all my martial arts training and pitted me against an attacker with all my grappling experience then I would definitely get taken down and crushed unless I could run fast enough to get away. For that matter, if you magically robbed me of all my training and pitted me against an attacker with all my stand-up striking experience, then I would definitely get knocked out. I've been training martial arts for over three decades. If I can't reliably defeat a version of myself without any of that training, then something is definitely wrong.

You'll notice that I specified all other factors being equal. If you pit an 300 pound NFL linebacker with no martial arts training against an average 120 pound female BJJ practitioner, then the BJJ practitioner is the one who will be struggling for survival. There's more to combat than what martial art you happen to study.

Obviously I believe it is better to have well rounded self defense training but both you guys seem to take on this notion that the "average" bjj practitioners ground fighting skills are impossible to overcome without those same skills.

Yeah, if you have never trained ground fighting and the fight goes to the ground then you are at a huge disadvantage against someone who has even basic competence in that arena - especially if they end up on top. It doesn't have to be BJJ - it could be judo, wrestling, sambo, whatever. You need some kind of experience in that domain. This isn't just theory - it's experience and observation. I've done sparring and grappling with hundreds of people - boxers, wrestlers, karateka, judoka, kung fu practitioners, street fighters, big guys, little guys, football players, you name it. I've watched plenty of fights where one person had grappling experience and the other didn't. It really does make a big, big difference.

 

[Steve]

Ok let me rephrase the question.....

If either one of you (Steve and Tony) had no training experience whatsoever and you were jumped by an attacker with your own grappling experience you don't think you could escape without "serious injury"?

I think it would be pretty likely, if the attacker were intent and I didn't have some kind of equalizer, such as a weapon or friends.

Obviously I believe it is better to have well rounded self defense training

I agree, which is why I wonder at your persistent denial that this would include ground training.

but both you guys seem to take on this notion that the "average" bjj practitioners ground fighting skills are impossible to overcome without those same skills.

Not at all impossible, and since you ask (sort of), I don't think it would even take equivalent skill. It's far easier to defend than to attack in grappling. I'd say that a year of deliberate training in BJJ would be sufficient to develop pretty solid skills adequate for self defense. Provided you aren't being attacked by a BJJ black belt, you will have the body awareness and skill to handle yourself in a bad situation. More is better, but it really depends upon what you want.

Now when you say you can't fight this guy off on the ground you are telling me you couldn't get any kind of strike in or escape if you were facing possible serious injury? What if your life was at stake? (not from steve but somebody else with intent to kill you)

If you have no training on the ground and are unarmed, honestly, you'd be in bad shape. Which is why it's so alarming and bizarre to me that you are so cavalierly dismissing this area of your training.

And the more clothing you have on, the worse it gets. The "uniform" in MMA evolved as its own defense against grapplers. Fabric provides friction for purchase and to use as a weapon against you. We wear gis in class because they're sturdy and durable, but I'm confident your t-shirt would hold up for one choke, and the fabric itself would prevent you from becoming so slippery that you could easily escape.

So, once again, I am curious as to why you train at all. You said this:

Originally Posted by SENC-33 Survival instinct factors into any situation when you are being threatened (atleast it does with me). Is it nice to be able to strike effectively? YES.....Good to be able to handle a ground situation? YES. Good to be able control your emotions and adrenaline without panicking? YES. What if you had no training at all, no means to escape and your wife and kids with you facing an attacker. What would you do? You would fight for your life and that of your family. You ingrain that survival mentality into your self defense training and some grappler on top of you isn't going to shake you a hell of difference. Sorry but this is just how I see it......



So, then, training in martial arts isn't really helpful at all? I'm really struggling to understand your point. Why do we train at all? Why do you train, if not to learn techniques that will serve you better than balls out panic and adrenaline fueled rage?

 

[SENC-33]

Im saying on the ground Steve or other BJJ guys have the advantage. Of course if Im on the ground im going to do what I can but I also know a good BJJ guy wants me to spaz so he can get me. So My goal is to not get on the ground to begin with or if I do not to stay there. In a real fight as you say for my life Ill do anything including bite, scratch, claw, grab genetials, fingers, toes, ect. Anyhting I can to get up. But facts are facts on the ground a BJJ guy has the advantage. Ive rolled enough to know some things not to do that he would want me to do.

I agree with you when there is a mat and rules involved but some of these comments telling me that I "can't" or that it is "impossible" or even "improbable" to strike or escape a grappler without serious injury? That is downright foolish IMO especially when my well being is threatened. I train with grapplers all the time and I set up scenarios where my purpose is to escape and nothing more. Getting free even without true technique has never been a problem.

 

[SENC-33]

Tony and Steve
Were just gonna have to agree to disagree. Like my post above states I train with guys like you two all the time. 2 of my long time training partners are experienced shoot fighters. They go at me all the time (with little success) with my intent being to escape and get back to my feet. I don't know maybe my survival philosophy makes the difference.

 

[ballen0351]

Tony and Steve
Were just gonna have to agree to disagree. Like my post above states I train with guys like you two all the time. 2 of my long time training partners are experienced shoot fighters. They go at me all the time (with little success) with my intent being to escape and get back to my feet. I don't know maybe my survival philosophy makes the difference.

So is your position you dont need any ground fighting training at all?

 

[Steve]

Tony and Steve
Were just gonna have to agree to disagree. Like my post above states I train with guys like you two all the time. 2 of my long time training partners are experienced shoot fighters. They go at me all the time (with little success) with my intent being to escape and get back to my feet. I don't know maybe my survival philosophy makes the difference.

Maybe so. I just hope you aren't promoting this philosophy with any kind of student, because it's akin in my mind to telling people to eschew modern medicine in lieu of praying away cancer. As I said, it is completely bizarre to me that you think ground fighting is simply a matter of instincts. I've asked you twice now, and you haven't answered, why do you train at all if your survival instincts are what keep you safe? Why drill any techniques, whether striking or grappling, if none of it matters? Or is it only grappling you consider unnecessary?

And, for what it's worth, Tony and I aren't a lot alike. Tony is a much more serious martial artist than I am.

 

[SENC-33]

So is your position you dont need any ground fighting training at all?

Not at all. I made that pretty clear.....but I value escape and get to your feet quickly training over staying on the ground rolling around training. If the situation is one where "friends" or multiple bad guys could become part of the equation staying on the ground will get your skull kicked in. If I can't get to my feet I am going for throat, eyes, groin but I have already been told I "can't" accomplish such a feat with a super human grappler on top of me which is news to me.

 

[SENC-33]

Maybe so. I just hope you aren't promoting this philosophy with any kind of student, because it's akin in my mind to telling people to eschew modern medicine in lieu of praying away cancer. As I said, it is completely bizarre to me that you think ground fighting is simply a matter of instincts. I've asked you twice now, and you haven't answered, why do you train at all if your survival instincts are what keep you safe? Why drill any techniques, whether striking or grappling, if none of it matters? Or is it only grappling you consider unnecessary?

And, for what it's worth, Tony and I aren't a lot alike. Tony is a much more serious martial artist than I am.

My points are strickly pertaining to ground fighting. I don't want to be there to start with and sure don't want to stay there so why would I focus on staying there rolling around? Again if there are multiple bad people you are a sitting duck.......I train for that worse case scenario. I don't train students. The people that train with me (although I am the instructer per se) are like minded individuals that share the same ideas as me.

 

[SENC-33]

And as far as instincts go......your insticts first taught you to stand and walk as a baby. They taught you to walk after you learned to stand. Your instincts tell you to run from trouble so why wouldn't they be the most important tool you have when on the ground facing danger? You can't easily escape from the ground rolling around if the situation turns bad for you no matter how much BJJ training you have.

 

[Hanzou]

SENC's belief that he is immune to choke holds has been the highlight of this discussion.


His defense against the Mount by giving up his back (i.e. escaping from a vulnerable position by getting into a MORE vulnerable position) is a close second.