MMA vs TMA

[Tony Dismukes]

My points are strickly pertaining to ground fighting. I don't want to be there to start with and sure don't want to stay there so why would I focus on staying there rolling around?

I have no problem with that philosophy. I just have a strong disagreement with you as to the quickest, safest, and most reliable methods of getting back to your feet if you happen to get taken down and mounted. (For the record, the techniques I would teach for that purpose don't involve focusing on "staying there rolling around.")

2 of my long time training partners are experienced shoot fighters. They go at me all the time (with little success) with my intent being to escape and get back to my feet. I don't know maybe my survival philosophy makes the difference.

Just to be clear on what you're saying - you're starting out with these training partners fully mounted on you, they're allowed to strike or use submissions from the top, and you are reliably escaping by either striking from the bottom or turning to your knees underneath them? Is that correct? If it works for you, great. Unless you have a significant advantage in size/athleticism or your training partners aren't very well trained in the ground game, then it doesn't match my experience and observations of what works.

 

[SENC-33]

SENC's belief that he is immune to choke holds has been the highlight of this discussion.


His defense against the Mount by giving up his back (i.e. escaping from a vulnerable position by getting into a MORE vulnerable position) is a close second.

Immune no.....But training to "ground fight" instead of training to get up and fight is a foolish one and that is my belief. To each his own.....

 

[SENC-33]

I have no problem with that philosophy. I just have a strong disagreement with you as to the quickest, safest, and most reliable methods of getting back to your feet if you happen to get taken down and mounted. (For the record, the techniques I would teach for that purpose don't involve focusing on "staying there rolling around.")





Just to be clear on what you're saying - you're starting out with these training partners fully mounted on you, they're allowed to strike or use submissions from the top, and you are reliably escaping by either striking from the bottom or turning to your knees underneath them? Is that correct? If it works for you, great. Unless you have a significant advantage in size/athleticism or your training partners aren't very well trained in the ground game, then it doesn't match my experience and observations of what works.

The shoot fighters I train with are 20+ year veterans. We start on top and they obviously shoot in on me or attempt to throw me. If I can sprawl I do so if we roll around I have gotten adept at springing up quickly. If they get me in the mount I go into combatives mode because that is obviously the last place I want to be. I found that any time spent looking for grabs to counter is wasted effort. If I went the BJJ route to get on top of them what have I accomplished? They could easily reverse that or wrap me and I am not interested in a game of cat and mouse when time and energy are against me. All I need is just enough space created to kick of strike a vital area and Ican get back to my feet.

 

[Steve]

Immune no.....But training to "ground fight" instead of training to get up and fight is a foolish one and that is my belief. To each his own.....

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I've never said one way or the other about what I train. I simply observed that when you shared some details of your defensive strategy, it was a pretty naive and unrealistic. You presume we don't teach students how to get up from the ground safely. And the more you say, the more obviously uninformed you are about what BJJ training is.

For what it's worth, we have drills and techniques for regaining your feet safely. One drill, for example, is typically called the technical standup, the idea being to create space and stand up in a way that doesn't bring your head forward and mitigates the risks during the transition from the ground back to your feet. Here's one example from Stefan Kesting, a guy up in Vancouver, BC:

 

[Steve]

The shoot fighters I train with are 20+ year veterans. We start on top and they obviously shoot in on me or attempt to throw me. If I can sprawl I do so if we roll around I have gotten adept at springing up quickly. If they get me in the mount I go into combatives mode because that is obviously the last place I want to be. I found that any time spent looking for grabs to counter is wasted effort. If I went the BJJ route to get on top of them what have I accomplished? They could easily reverse that or wrap me and I am not interested in a game of cat and mouse when time and energy are against me. All I need is just enough space created to kick of strike a vital area and Ican get back to my feet.

It looks like there are some quality BJJ schools in Raleigh. I hope someday you are open minded and courageous enough to risk learning how little you actually know about it.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I've never said one way or the other about what I train.

Don't take a rocket scientist or Elder to figure it out look at your signature lol

 

[Steve]

Don't take a rocket scientist or Elder to figure it out look at your signature lol

Ha. Thanks, Ballen. I wasn't being clear. What I mean is, yeah, I train BJJ, but I never said anything like, "And that means that all we do is roll around on the mats and never train any technical stand up."

The point was that there are some presumptions being made about what BJJ training entails which are factually incorrect.

 

[Kframe]

That's a bad argument. I would teach them about conflict avoidance and S.P.E.A.R. and run if it gets violent. 1 seminar is pointless. They will not learn anything, or more importantly retain anything. This kind of seminar is only good for one thing, and that is relieving people of there there money. It will ONLY serve to get people hurt. NOTHING good will ever come from it.

Steve and Tony

If you were giving a seminar to a group of people on ground self defense (with zero experience in anything) and you had 3 hours to instruct them on what to do in the case that they were attacked and taken to the ground by a BJJ grappler, what would you teach them? Would you teach them a couple BJJ techniques and send them on their way hoping for the best? Would you teach them to prey to god and hope everything turns out ok? Or would you teach them to scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them? I'm talking a group of strangers with no training that will go out into the world with what you have taught them in 3 hours and never step foot in a dojo again.

 

[K-man]

That's a bad argument. I would teach them about conflict avoidance and S.P.E.A.R. and run if it gets violent. 1 seminar is pointless. They will not learn anything, or more importantly retain anything. This kind of seminar is only good for one thing, and that is relieving people of there there money. It will ONLY serve to get people hurt. NOTHING good will ever come from it.

Steve and Tony


If you were giving a seminar to a group of people on ground self defense (with zero experience in anything) and you had 3 hours to instruct them on what to do in the case that they were attacked and taken to the ground by a BJJ grappler, what would you teach them? Would you teach them a couple BJJ techniques and send them on their way hoping for the best? Would you teach them to prey to god and hope everything turns out ok? Or would you teach them to scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them? I'm talking a group of strangers with no training that will go out into the world with what you have taught them in 3 hours and never step foot in a dojo again.

If you are talking about totally untrained people, I agree. A seminar is pretty much a waste of time. However for a reasonably trained martial artist it is a different matter. I go to a lot of seminars over time. I don't necessarily attend to learn anything new but if I do it is a bonus. Take for example the seminar with Bas Rutten. It was an MMA seminar. Why would a TMA guy want to attend that when he has never done an MMA class in his life. Well the answer is several fold. Firstly Bas is primarily a karate-ka so we have a similar base. Secondly, because he teaches no BS RBSD and I have a lot of his material I have enormous respect for his ability and his ability to teach. Thirdly, although I'm not attending to learn anything in particular there will always be something that you pick up on that you can apply to your own training. But for me the most important thing that I get from it is the measure of where my ability and training compares with other top class training. If I can hold my head up in that sort of company it gives me a fair idea of whether the stuff I teach is up to speed. A quality check if you like. Sure a few of my mates have shown me basic rolling techniques but it has been at seminars that I have been able to ensure that my technique is sound.
:asian:

 

[SENC-33]

It looks like there are some quality BJJ schools in Raleigh. I hope someday you are open minded and courageous enough to risk learning how little you actually know about it.

I don't how many times I have to say I have trained with ground fighters. 2 of my training partners are seasoned shoot fighters. I have been on the ground with them countless times along with BJJ guys and sambo grapplers. I have flipped them, bucked them, rolled them over, landed strikes on them and I have even managed to escape their wrath. Amazingly enough my get to your feet strategy actually works. I'm confused as to why this pisses some of you off to no end.......is it some sort of slap in the face?

 

[Kframe]

In your fantasy maybe, but its the kind of attitude that will get you and your students killed..

I don't how many times I have to say I have trained with ground fighters. 2 of my training partners are seasoned shoot fighters. I have been on the ground with them countless times along with BJJ guys and sambo grapplers. I have flipped them, bucked them, rolled them over, landed strikes on them and I have even managed to escape their wrath. Amazingly enough my get to your feet strategy actually works. I'm confused as to why this pisses some of you off to no end.......is it some sort of slap in the face?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't how many times I have to say I have trained with ground fighters. 2 of my training partners are seasoned shoot fighters. I have been on the ground with them countless times along with BJJ guys and sambo grapplers. I have flipped them, bucked them, rolled them over, landed strikes on them and I have even managed to escape their wrath. Amazingly enough my get to your feet strategy actually works. I'm confused as to why this pisses some of you off to no end.......is it some sort of slap in the face?

Doesn't piss me off at all. It's just that the techniques you originally described - striking from the bottom or rolling underneath the top guy - have not been very effective for the many, many people I have seen try them.

Bridging the top guy over and getting back to your feet - that's one of the first techniques I teach. It does work a lot better if you take the time to learn the technical details rather than just going berserk, but even the berserk version can work if you have an advantage in strength and athleticism and your opponent doesn't have the experience to counter that advantage.

So which is it? Are you bridging your opponents or are you striking from the bottom/turning underneath them?

 

[Steve]

I don't how many times I have to say I have trained with ground fighters. 2 of my training partners are seasoned shoot fighters. I have been on the ground with them countless times along with BJJ guys and sambo grapplers. I have flipped them, bucked them, rolled them over, landed strikes on them and I have even managed to escape their wrath. Amazingly enough my get to your feet strategy actually works. I'm confused as to why this pisses some of you off to no end.......is it some sort of slap in the face?

I want to assure you that this doesn't piss me off at all. It's a head shaker, for sure. Your general assurances that you train with "ground fighters" just doesn't seem plausible given the completely unrealistic "techniques" you say you use. It just doesn't compute. It's like someone saying that they live eating only rocks and drinking gasoline. Just doesn't seem likely.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Wow. Just about everything in that paragraph is wrong except for the last two sentences.

So what are the specific issues that you have with those suggestions. Notice I said they were possible without any mention of their effectiveness.

However if you are going to opine on how to do ground fighting then you should get some experience in it first.

Well obviously I do not have the ground experience of a BJJ blackbelt, the main exposure I have had with the mount is somewhere between thew high and low mount (a mid mount if you will) where the attacker is sitting on your chest and choking you with his hands, which is quite a common exercise.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There are a number of things that can be done. That's true.

But Not having been in this position leads to unrealistic ideas like being able to gouge the eyes, kick the back of the head, reach the neck, temple or face, or kneeing the kidney with enough force to do anything at all. That's fantasy.

If you go back and read my post again you might notice that I said that you have to bring them down into range to reach those places. If he comes down to punch you can grab his arm as you block the punch and pull him down into range. I think, kneeing the spine would hurt a bit more, in any case if you look at Royce Gracie in the early UFC's you will see him use little heel kicks to the kidneys, they don't do much damage but they are a means to an end.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Of course. The thing is this though; Most people have a general idea on how to do stand up. Let's face it, if you're into martial arts, you've probably done karate, shadow boxing, or something else. Throwing a punch is pretty simple. Throwing a kick is fairly simple. In short, the average person knows how to do average stand up. Like that thug and that meter cop who was trained in Muay Thai. The untrained thug hung with him and they were just trading blows because boxing is like 4 punches and some fancy footwork. How hard is that to emulate with a VCR and a punching bag?


You just can't say the same about ground fighting. Anyone who has rolled with a legit Bjj purple, brown, or black belt can attest to that.

The 2 bolded statements above show how little you know of striking, yeah throwing an unrefined and sloppy punch or kick is easy, striking hard, fast, accurate, focussed and effective is hard and takes a lot of training, anyone who has been hit hard by a trained traditional martial artist can attest to that.

Some of the crazy counters that I've heard like a Karate chop to the neck to stop a takedown,

I have already explained how and in what circumstances that will work.

What's sad is that its not like the BJJ escapes are impossible to find. They're right there on youtube for you to check out and incorporate. Like this Ninjutsu school for example that incorporated a Bjj mount counter;

Simple.

That was just lift up and roll over, they may have just thought of that themselves. Oh and look at 0:11 and 0:19 the guy on the bottom can reach the other guy's neck.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Or you could bypass all of that nonsense and just do the move in the video I posted. It's easier to accomplish, doesn't require insane amounts of flexibility, and it doesn't leave your head exposed to punches and elbow from above.

Shin kick to the back of the head? :lol: Is that what TKD is teaching for ground defense these days?

It does require some flexibility but hardly an insane amount, but hey that's what all that stretching in class is done for. It's not just the shin, the ball of the foot removes about 6 inches off the required flexibility. I was never taught that particular one for that particular situation by the way. The technique shown in the video is a good one though.

 

[SENC-33]

I can see now there isn't much in the way of reasoning with you ground fighting weapons of mass destruction. I can assure you guys I don't live in a fantasy land and the strategy I utilize works. If it didn't I wouldn't continue to train it........This has gotten to much like politics and you just can't convince some people that are hell bent on trying to prove somebody wrong. I'm sure there are better conversations to be had here

 

[Dinkydoo]

Traditional Northern Mantis practitioners training to use their Mantis techniques in combat:

http://youtu.be/rB7Wvvw_Ht4

This school does have Sanda training too but the above video is a typical drill used in traditional CMA clubs - we use drills like this in Seven Star every class.

The start of this is also a pretty good demonstration of people using the traditional Northern Mantis techniques in an unscripted environment.

http://youtu.be/su0mLG9a6bM

 

[K-man]

So what are the specific issues that you have with those suggestions. Notice I said they were possible without any mention of their effectiveness.



Well obviously I do not have the ground experience of a BJJ blackbelt, the main exposure I have had with the mount is somewhere between thew high and low mount (a mid mount if you will) where the attacker is sitting on your chest and choking you with his hands, which is quite a common exercise.

Traditional Northern Mantis practitioners training to use their Mantis techniques in combat:

http://youtu.be/rB7Wvvw_Ht4

This school does have Sanda training too but the above video is a typical drill used in traditional CMA clubs - we use drills like this in Seven Star every class.

The start of this is also a pretty good demonstration of people using the traditional Northern Mantis techniques in an unscripted environment.

http://youtu.be/su0mLG9a6bM

I understand exactly where you are at. Unfortunately I don't think it will impress our friends. For what it's worth we do very similar training, sometimes with just one arm against two and other times with eyes closed.
:asian: