MMA vs TMA

[K-man]

I assume you were lucky enough to experience Alex "systema" punch? What was your initial reaction?

I felt it for about 10 minutes.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, be that as it may, don't you think that your time would be better spent putting in the blood, sweat and tears by training, rather than worrying what the school down the road is doing?

Sure, but we're discussing style differences here. IRL, I could care less if people are getting taught crazy things.

LMFAO!! Well, considering that you've pretty much bashed the hell out of every TMA out there, I'd find what you just said, hard to believe, but if you say so....

There's some effective stuff in CMA. It's not much, but it's there.

 

[Steve]

There are a number of things that are possible from this position; From the picture it is clear that the mounted man has both arms free so any punches that can be rained down can also be blocked with the forearms (often in the UFC you will see someone raining down punches and the only defence you will see is the flailing of arms), the grappler's wrist can also be grabbed and broken. After grabbing the wrist he can use the legs to topple him over and escape. If the mounted guy wants to strike for the face he would have to bring it closer down (striking there from that position would be unwise) by either grabbing the clothes or the arm and then striking. A bear hand fist or middle knuckle strike to the side of the neck, the temple or the facial nerve under the cheek bone would not take much power to be effective. There is also the possibility of kicking to the back of the head with the shin,instep or ball of the foot or getting the leg around the front and pulling him backwards or kneeing in the kidneys. Nothing from this position would be ideal but there are manyt things that could work. That being said, if you are put in this position then something has already gone terribly wrong.

There are a number of things that can be done. That's true.

But Not having been in this position leads to unrealistic ideas like being able to gouge the eyes, kick the back of the head, reach the neck, temple or face, or kneeing the kidney with enough force to do anything at all. That's fantasy.

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[Steve]

I'm done talking about the throat thing (wish I had never brought it up)......as far as what my first choice of defense is if I end up on the bottom?

I have become extremely good at keeping my body relaxed enough to help me manuever and experience has taught me not to panic. I am going to get hit so my goal is to roll over or roll the attacker over if possible and as quickly as possible. Strength, relaxation and flexibility are my best techniques. When all hell breaks loose you aint got time to look for the perfect grab.

If you try to roll over, I will let you and thank you for giving me your back so that I can safely choke you without exposing my eyes to deadly gouging.

Here's the thing. Is Bjj the be all and end all? No. But the obvious arguments from ignorance undermine your position, even from guys like me who are inclined to agree with you.


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[MJS]

Sure, but we're discussing style differences here. IRL, I could care less if people are getting taught crazy things.

Well, yes, that is what we're discussing...MMA vs. TMA. My point was simply...who cares if a particular TMA is ineffective or not? If you're not currently training in it, and you have no plans to train in it, why worry what they're doing? You're happy with BJJ and whatever else you may be doing, so.....

There's some effective stuff in CMA. It's not much, but it's there.

Ok

 

[SENC-33]

If you try to roll over, I will let you and thank you for giving me your back so that I can safely choke you without exposing my eyes to deadly gouging.

Here's the thing. Is Bjj the be all and end all? No. But the obvious arguments from ignorance undermine your position, even from guys like me who are inclined to agree with you.


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I don't know what to say. If I am ever in the position of having a super human bjj master on top of me pounding my brains in ill remember this advice. Do you guys ever leave the safety of a mat? You ever train on pavement or gravel or in the woods in the brush? How bout in water? When you are in a situation of survival looking pretty isn't your objective.

 

[Jaeimseu]

If you try to roll over, I will let you and thank you for giving me your back so that I can safely choke you without exposing my eyes to deadly gouging.

Here's the thing. Is Bjj the be all and end all? No. But the obvious arguments from ignorance undermine your position, even from guys like me who are inclined to agree with you.


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I don't know what to say. If I am ever in the position of having a super human bjj master on top of me pounding my brains in ill remember this advice. Do you guys ever leave the safety of a mat? You ever train on pavement or gravel or in the woods in the brush? How bout in water? When you are in a situation of survival looking pretty isn't your objective.

Who said anything about looking pretty? What are you talking about here? Are we breaking it down to separate debates? TMA vs MMA on pavement? On gravel? In the woods? In water?

I think Steve's point (he can correct me if I'm wrong) was that many of the defenses you brought up weren't realistic, not that BJJ is pretty.

Also, although I'm not a BJJ practitioner, I've dabbled enough to know that you don't need to be a "super human BJJ master" to make things work, especially if your opponent doesn't know how to defend, and maybe even more especially, if your opponent doesn't know how to defend, but is convinced he does.

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[SENC-33]

Who said anything about looking pretty? What are you talking about here? Are we breaking it down to separate debates? TMA vs MMA on pavement? On gravel? In the woods? In water?

I think Steve's point (he can correct me if I'm wrong) was that many of the defenses you brought up weren't realistic, not that BJJ is pretty.

Also, although I'm not a BJJ practitioner, I've dabbled enough to know that you don't need to be a "super human BJJ master" to make things work, especially if your opponent doesn't know how to defend, and maybe even more especially, if your opponent doesn't know how to defend, but is convinced he does.

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My point exactly! You don't have to be a bjj master to make it work in "real life".

 

[K-man]

My point exactly! You don't have to be a bjj master to make it work in "real life".

OK. I think I owe everyone here an apology. I am obviously totally wrong in my assumption that I train a TMA. I am thoroughly confused and maybe someone on the forum can tell me what I am doing wrong. I would like to describe our training session from tonight. Almost all my high ranked guys were away so it left me carrying the can, so to speak.

We started out with a bit of a warm up and then a bit of sticky hands, like the Kung Fu guys do but with a little bit of Chi Na for good measure, not to mention the application of some locks and holds. Some of the guys got some sore fingers but nothing broke that I was aware of. Then I thought I should teach some basics because we don't do as much of that as we should. To much reality based stuff usually. I started out teaching all the useless stances that you find in our Goju system. Well, not quite all but half a dozen or so. You know the ones, totally impractical for self defence but part of the fluff you need in TMA to get your next belt.

Then I got the guys to move forward in those stupid stances, not punching, just hands up in the ready position. Then we just stood around for a while discussing where in the kata, you know that other useless fluff you need for grading, you would find those stances and how did they work.

Well we explored how they could all be used to get your opponent to the ground, mostly variations of hip throws. Funny thing was the person being thrown almost always ended up in a choke or potential neck break. Must have just been a coincidence I know but surprising just the same. Seeing our opponent was now on the ground I thought of Hanzou, you know, what would a top MMA fighter do in this situation. So I told the guys just to jump on top of the guy on the ground and pretend to punch the crap out of him. That was going well but I started to feel really sorry for the guy on the bottom. I got him to try and get away, you know what I mean, escaping the mount. Well my guys don't know a lot so often they were too high up on the chest so I had to get them to escape the high mount too. Some rolled over and let the top guy get a choke on. Bugger! It was getting too much so we had to do a bit on escaping from rear naked chokes as well. Others managed to roll their opponent over but they ended up in a type of scissor lock. I think the grappling guys call it 'guard'. Of course by now I am totally out of my tree. Not only had we escaped from the mount and the rear naked choke we had to pass the guard too.

After all this exertion on the ground I thought, in for a penny, in for a pound and got the guys to start applying various other chokes from the standing position because that was the position they all seemed to end up in from the stupid kata moves we had been practising. Again it's not nice seeing these young guys struggling to breathe so we had to practise escaping from those as well. I'm almost embarrassed to admit, I showed the guys that they could use their teeth. Well we played around for a bit and played with some nasty vital points on the head. Surprising really how much a knuckle in the right place can almost cause paralysis! We call it Kyusho.

By this time 2 hours had passed and we hadn't done anything with weapons so I grabbed a couple of knives and away we went again. I know this isn't at all traditional but a lot of the moves were very similar to the moves in our kata. What a coincidence! Half an hour later and time was up. Really just another day at the office.

I do feel really bad. We didn't have time for any kata tonight and we didn't get a chance to practise the bunkai. What am I doing wrong? :idunno:

 

[Kframe]

I don't know what to say. If I am ever in the position of having a super human bjj master on top of me pounding my brains in ill remember this advice. Do you guys ever leave the safety of a mat? You ever train on pavement or gravel or in the woods in the brush? How bout in water? When you are in a situation of survival looking pretty isn't your objective.

It doesn't take a super bjj artist to do it, any average bjj could.

I think that Ryan Halls encounter on the streets more the proves that bjj is up to the task of dealing with a street encounter. You do realize that most good bjj schools teach a mix of good take downs that threaten your knees?(the slt/dlt are not the only ones) Many schools that I train at also teach good break falling as well. Not sure were the pavement thing comes from. Honestly it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. The only things I don't see working well for bjj on pavement are single and double leg take downs that commit the knee to hitting the mat/ground(can be modified to not do this, so it is still a G2G move). The other thing I see is if the artist has the presence of mind to not stay there for very long. IE take them down and snap it then get back to feet.

 

[SENC-33]

All my days bouncing, working the door and event security I have seen countless altercations end up on the ground. Most times my involvement means breaking the altercation up and eviction of the parties involved; sometimes I was the one they were having a go at. In all those years I can't remember a single time when there was an armbar or fight ending choke applied. You couldn't label it anything other than adrenaline and attitude.

I know and train with many grapplers of differing backgrounds; some of them worked and continue to work various security jobs with me. Not a single one of them has ever put somebody in an armbar or even mounted a guy ground and pound style that I have witnessed. Chokes or locks from a side mount or sprawl are pretty much all I have seen. Just my experience but I have yet to witness any gracie style grappling outside of a gym or on TV.

 

[Kframe]

That sounds like a Amazingly fun class! Im telling you, if there were more Karate teachers that put in quality class's like you and the others here do, tma would get more respect. In my neck of the woods is literally ALL mcdojo karate. Most of it started by some guy whose actually training lineage cant even be proven yet he has a huge empire of schools... I wont train in those schools.

I don't really see were a tma is in trouble with a BJJ/mma. Its the rules that screw tma. Not the dirty trick crap either. Im talking about no side kick/side stomp kick to the knees, no attacks to the front of the knees. I have been watching a lot of tma vs mma on you tube. Outside of those that didn't see a DLT/SLT coming and ate it, most of them ended up engaged in a clinch fight. Now they did ok there but were unable to strike at the knees, which are very very vulnerable in the clinch, despite what mma will tell you.

Of course then the inevitable happens and they go down and die. I think tma need to work a little more on striking from the clinch and using some of those uselessly fluffy low and wide stances for a better base in the clinch. IF tma and by that I mean the standard fare karate and tkd and what not, can get the clinch take down defense game dialed in, they stand a great chance..

OK. I think I owe everyone here an apology. I am obviously totally wrong in my assumption that I train a TMA. I am thoroughly confused and maybe someone on the forum can tell me what I am doing wrong. I would like to describe our training session from tonight. Almost all my high ranked guys were away so it left me carrying the can, so to speak.

We started out with a bit of a warm up and then a bit of sticky hands, like the Kung Fu guys do but with a little bit of Chi Na for good measure, not to mention the application of some locks and holds. Some of the guys got some sore fingers but nothing broke that I was aware of. Then I thought I should teach some basics because we don't do as much of that as we should. To much reality based stuff usually. I started out teaching all the useless stances that you find in our Goju system. Well, not quite all but half a dozen or so. You know the ones, totally impractical for self defence but part of the fluff you need in TMA to get your next belt.

Then I got the guys to move forward in those stupid stances, not punching, just hands up in the ready position. Then we just stood around for a while discussing where in the kata, you know that other useless fluff you need for grading, you would find those stances and how did they work.

Well we explored how they could all be used to get your opponent to the ground, mostly variations of hip throws. Funny thing was the person being thrown almost always ended up in a choke or potential neck break. Must have just been a coincidence I know but surprising just the same. Seeing our opponent was now on the ground I thought of Hanzou, you know, what would a top MMA fighter do in this situation. So I told the guys just to jump on top of the guy on the ground and pretend to punch the crap out of him. That was going well but I started to feel really sorry for the guy on the bottom. I got him to try and get away, you know what I mean, escaping the mount. Well my guys don't know a lot so often they were too high up on the chest so I had to get them to escape the high mount too. Some rolled over and let the top guy get a choke on. Bugger! It was getting too much so we had to do a bit on escaping from rear naked chokes as well. Others managed to roll their opponent over but they ended up in a type of scissor lock. I think the grappling guys call it 'guard'. Of course by now I am totally out of my tree. Not only had we escaped from the mount and the rear naked choke we had to pass the guard too.

After all this exertion on the ground I thought, in for a penny, in for a pound and got the guys to start applying various other chokes from the standing position because that was the position they all seemed to end up in from the stupid kata moves we had been practising. Again it's not nice seeing these young guys struggling to breathe so we had to practise escaping from those as well. I'm almost embarrassed to admit, I showed the guys that they could use their teeth. Well we played around for a bit and played with some nasty vital points on the head. Surprising really how much a knuckle in the right place can almost cause paralysis! We call it Kyusho.

By this time 2 hours had passed and we hadn't done anything with weapons so I grabbed a couple of knives and away we went again. I know this isn't at all traditional but a lot of the moves were very similar to the moves in our kata. What a coincidence! Half an hour later and time was up. Really just another day at the office.

I do feel really bad. We didn't have time for any kata tonight and we didn't get a chance to practise the bunkai. What am I doing wrong? :idunno:

 

[SENC-33]

It doesn't take a super bjj artist to do it, any average bjj could.

I think that Ryan Halls encounter on the streets more the proves that bjj is up to the task of dealing with a street encounter. You do realize that most good bjj schools teach a mix of good take downs that threaten your knees?(the slt/dlt are not the only ones) Many schools that I train at also teach good break falling as well. Not sure were the pavement thing comes from. Honestly it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. The only things I don't see working well for bjj on pavement are single and double leg take downs that commit the knee to hitting the mat/ground(can be modified to not do this, so it is still a G2G move). The other thing I see is if the artist has the presence of mind to not stay there for very long. IE take them down and snap it then get back to feet.

Are you referring to the video where he tackled a drunk and sat on him

 

[Steve]

I don't know what to say. If I am ever in the position of having a super human bjj master on top of me pounding my brains in ill remember this advice. Do you guys ever leave the safety of a mat? You ever train on pavement or gravel or in the woods in the brush? How bout in water? When you are in a situation of survival looking pretty isn't your objective.

See. This is the problem. You think this is about leaving the mats or being super human. It's like grappling 101. The things you're talking about are as fundamental as a break fall or forward roll. And while, as I said, I'm inclined to agree that self defense is different from Bjj training, it's hard to support you guys when it is so clear that you have no idea what Bjj is.
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[Tony Dismukes]

Do you guys ever leave the safety of a mat? You ever train on pavement or gravel or in the woods in the brush? How bout in water? When you are in a situation of survival looking pretty isn't your objective.

I don't know about most BJJ practitioners, but I have. (Not all the time, but I've done it.) None of those environments will make your proposed escapes work any better. We're not concerned about looking pretty. We're concerned about what works. The escapes you are suggesting will get you hurt against someone who has even a little bit of experience on the ground, let alone a "superhuman BJJ practitioner."

All my days bouncing, working the door and event security I have seen countless altercations end up on the ground. Most times my involvement means breaking the altercation up and eviction of the parties involved; sometimes I was the one they were having a go at. In all those years I can't remember a single time when there was an armbar or fight ending choke applied. You couldn't label it anything other than adrenaline and attitude.

I know and train with many grapplers of differing backgrounds; some of them worked and continue to work various security jobs with me. Not a single one of them has ever put somebody in an armbar or even mounted a guy ground and pound style that I have witnessed. Chokes or locks from a side mount or sprawl are pretty much all I have seen. Just my experience but I have yet to witness any gracie style grappling outside of a gym or on TV.

This doesn't surprise me. The drunks getting into fights don't know anything about jiu-jitsu and the experienced grapplers working security know that ground & pound or mounted armlocks aren't the appropriate tools for a bouncer.

Anyway, it seems that you continue miss the point that I (and Steve and others) am making. I'm not saying that BJJ is better than your art (or any other art). I'm not saying that I could beat you in a fight. I'm not saying that anyone should ever deliberately choose to fight on the ground. I am saying that if you were to somehow end up on the ground on the bottom of the mount in a real fight, then the defenses you suggest are not effective. Against someone with any real skill in the ground game they have zero chance of working. Against an opponent who doesn't know what he's doing, there is a small chance that they might work but a much larger chance that you will end up in the hospital with a concussion. I'm saying that there are other techniques which offer a much greater chance of escaping without injury to yourself. If you choose not to learn those techniques, that's your own business, but please don't encourage anyone else to get hurt by advocating for ineffective techniques from that position.

 

[Steve]

I don't know about most BJJ practitioners, but I have. (Not all the time, but I've done it.) None of those environments will make your proposed escapes work any better. We're not concerned about looking pretty. We're concerned about what works. The escapes you are suggesting will get you hurt against someone who has even a little bit of experience on the ground, let alone a "superhuman BJJ practitioner."




This doesn't surprise me. The drunks getting into fights don't know anything about jiu-jitsu and the experienced grapplers working security know that ground & pound or mounted armlocks aren't the appropriate tools for a bouncer.

Anyway, it seems that you continue miss the point that I (and Steve and others) am making. I'm not saying that BJJ is better than your art (or any other art). I'm not saying that I could beat you in a fight. I'm not saying that anyone should ever deliberately choose to fight on the ground. I am saying that if you were to somehow end up on the ground on the bottom of the mount in a real fight, then the defenses you suggest are not effective. Against someone with any real skill in the ground game they have zero chance of working. Against an opponent who doesn't know what he's doing, there is a small chance that they might work but a much larger chance that you will end up in the hospital with a concussion. I'm saying that there are other techniques which offer a much greater chance of escaping without injury to yourself. If you choose not to learn those techniques, that's your own business, but please don't encourage anyone else to get hurt by advocating for ineffective techniques from that position.

Yes. Very well put. Some of the proposed defenses to mount are alarmingly bad ideas against anyone, but particularly against someone with a little training.

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[SENC-33]

I don't know about most BJJ practitioners, but I have. (Not all the time, but I've done it.) None of those environments will make your proposed escapes work any better. We're not concerned about looking pretty. We're concerned about what works. The escapes you are suggesting will get you hurt against someone who has even a little bit of experience on the ground, let alone a "superhuman BJJ practitioner."





This doesn't surprise me. The drunks getting into fights don't know anything about jiu-jitsu and the experienced grapplers working security know that ground & pound or mounted armlocks aren't the appropriate tools for a bouncer.

Anyway, it seems that you continue miss the point that I (and Steve and others) am making. I'm not saying that BJJ is better than your art (or any other art). I'm not saying that I could beat you in a fight. I'm not saying that anyone should ever deliberately choose to fight on the ground. I am saying that if you were to somehow end up on the ground on the bottom of the mount in a real fight, then the defenses you suggest are not effective. Against someone with any real skill in the ground game they have zero chance of working. Against an opponent who doesn't know what he's doing, there is a small chance that they might work but a much larger chance that you will end up in the hospital with a concussion. I'm saying that there are other techniques which offer a much greater chance of escaping without injury to yourself. If you choose not to learn those techniques, that's your own business, but please don't encourage anyone else to get hurt by advocating for ineffective techniques from that position.

Yes there are tons of techniques that could work. I could try lots of really cool techniques to reverse a mount. Is it guarenteed to work when my well being is at stake in a potentially hostile situation? HELL NO......IF you get me on my back I am going to immediately try to roll over and get back to my feet because that is naturally what my body tells me to do. If you think you can easily choke me out because I am in what you think is a good position good luck to you. I will be kicking, bucking, wiggling, throwing elbows, turning, whatever I have to do to survive and escape. If you can get a good hold on me, maintain that hold and choke me out when my brain is in survival mode you are one hell of a man. What I encourage people I train to do is survive and use their instincts they were born with. You may not agree with that approach but in my mind teaching somebody to rely on techniques practiced on a mat in a controlled environment is just as foolish. IF you ever find yourself in a situation with multiple people involved and you get your skull kicked in while performing a rear naked choke maybe you will have time to reflect on this difference of opinion while YOU are recovering in the hospital

 

[Steve]

Yes there are tons of techniques that could work. I could try lots of really cool techniques to reverse a mount. Is it guarenteed to work when my well being is at stake in a potentially hostile situation? HELL NO......IF you get me on my back I am going to immediately try to roll over and get back to my feet because that is naturally what my body tells me to do. If you think you can easily choke me out because I am in what you think is a good position good luck to you. I will be kicking, bucking, wiggling, throwing elbows, turning, whatever I have to do to survive and escape. If you can get a good hold on me, maintain that hold and choke me out when my brain is in survival mode you are one hell of a man. What I encourage people I train to do is survive and use their instincts they were born with. You may not agree with that approach but in my mind teaching somebody to rely on techniques practiced on a mat in a controlled environment is just as foolish. IF you ever find yourself in a situation with multiple people involved and you get your skull kicked in while performing a rear naked choke maybe you will have time to reflect on this difference of opinion while YOU are recovering in the hospital

Everything you say is true if both people are completely incompetent on the ground. But, if the person you're giving a ride to has more than 6 months to a year training 3 or more times per week at the average grappling school, your instincts are only going to put you in more danger.

Yes. We are saying that there are tons of training that will work. Bucking, rolling, kicking, wiggling and throwing elbows are kind of ridiculous, to the point where I'd even be leery of them working on an untrained person, unless you have a significant size or strength advantage. I give you less than 60 seconds of bucking, kicking, or wiggling before all you're doing is gassing and panting and have rendered yourself completely helpless. In BJJ, we call that spazzing, and it's what every amped up, athletic, ego driven, tough guy does the first time they panic. And they panic because they realize that all of the things they SAID they'd do don't work.

In fact, one of the first things I share with new white belts is that the first thing they will learn is that their instincts suck.

Adding a billion more what if's to the situation don't change any of the above points, because we can both play that game. What if I'm the one with friends? I can take you to the ground where you're defenseless, and MY friends will kick you in the head. You will be helpless. What if I'm the one with the knife? What if I'm on top and you're the one who's being ground into the rocks? What ifs work both ways and we can play that game ad infinitum.

Once again, I and several others haven't said that BJJ is the greatest martial art ever. It is what it is, and while I agree that self defense is something else, and that staying on the ground in a fight is a bad idea, that's philosophy. And philosophically, we agree.

I don't know who you are, but I'm willing to accept at face value that you have experience as a bouncer. But none of that changes the points made above. You have wacky ideas about BJJ. That's just all there is to it. And the more you say, the more clear this becomes.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes there are tons of techniques that could work. I could try lots of really cool techniques to reverse a mount. Is it guarenteed to work when my well being is at stake in a potentially hostile situation? HELL NO

Quite correct. No technique is guaranteed to work all the time, especially when you are starting out in a bad situation. Some techniques have a much higher percentage chance of working than others.

IF you get me on my back I am going to immediately try to roll over and get back to my feet because that is naturally what my body tells me to do. ... What I encourage people I train to do is survive and use their instincts they were born with.

A huge part of what made the Gracie family so successful for decades in challenge matches was the fact that most people do not have good natural instincts for how to defend themselves on the ground.

You may not agree with that approach but in my mind teaching somebody to rely on techniques practiced on a mat in a controlled environment is just as foolish.

You don't train in a controlled environment? Really? You tell your students to forget about technique and go crazy and beat each other down for real? Somehow I'm skeptical.

If you think you can easily choke me out because I am in what you think is a good position good luck to you. I will be kicking, bucking, wiggling, throwing elbows, turning, whatever I have to do to survive and escape. If you can get a good hold on me, maintain that hold and choke me out when my brain is in survival mode you are one hell of a man.

Been there, done that. Seen lots of other people do it too. Now - was anyone's life really on the line? Nope. My training partners know that I will let go when they tap. I suppose you could argue that even though your approach doesn't work in a training situation or in a challenge match, it will work in a life-or-death situation because your adrenaline will magically make you impossible to choke. That seems like a risky proposition to me.

Let's imagine I was discussing standup technique with a good boxer or karateka and they told me to keep my hands up, my elbows in and my chin down while striking. Let's say I were to respond by saying "If you think you can easily punch me out because I am in what you think is a good position good luck to you. I will be kicking, ducking, wiggling, throwing elbows, turning, whatever I have to do to survive and escape. If you can land a good strike on me and knock me out when my brain is in survival mode you are one hell of a man." What do you suppose the experienced striker would think of me at that point?

IF you ever find yourself in a situation with multiple people involved and you get your skull kicked in while performing a rear naked choke maybe you will have time to reflect on this difference of opinion while YOU are recovering in the hospital

See, this is what I meant when I pointed out that you didn't seem to be getting the point of what I was saying. That sentence would be a perfectly good argument if I was advocating going to the ground and choking someone in a multiple opponent situation. It has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion of what you should do if you are the person who has been taken down and is mounted. I think we agree that in that situation you would want to escape the mount and get back to your feet as quickly as possible (especially if the attacker's friends are getting ready to kick your head in). Where we disagree is one the safest and most reliable methods to do so. You apparently want to abandon any sort of actual technique and just go on natural instinct. I'd prefer to go with what I've seen work time and time again.

Out of curiosity, do you advocate just going on pure natural survival instinct in all combat situations or just on the ground?

 

[Steve]

Out of curiosity, do you advocate just going on pure natural survival instinct in all combat situations or just on the ground?

Excellent question.