MMA vs TMA

[K-man]

Please inform me Ballen. If it is taught why save it for high ranking belts? That should be in the syllabus from the beginning not at the end were it does no good. I have done more then enough internet research and talking with various karateka in real life to make my assertion..

I teach it from white belt. This may be quite different to other schools but I am proud of my students of all rank in any company. Your assertion is valid within your own experience but you are welcome to visit my school any time.

 

[Chris Parker]

See my earlier quote about the female grappler being able to submit someone much larger than herself. That's my criteria of effective. I have yet to see anyone consider doing amazing kata to pop music as "effective".

Er... yeah, I saw that hypothetical you tried floating (flawed, at the least), and I gotta tell you, that (combined with the comment here about "kata to pop music") is what tells me you have no clue about kata training, especially in the Japanese form I was talking about. And, if that's you criteria for "effective", I gotta tell you... that's better suited by TMA systems than sport ones... sport systems will be more based on similar weight classes etc, so the idea of the petite girl against the big guy isn't really the purview of a sporting system....

But, to really deal with how badly you're missing everything, can you go back to post #602, and, I don't know, answer any of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness

Oh, you didn't really just try to invoke Matt Thornton and his "aliveness" thing with me, did you? You do realize that I've ripped it apart here a number of times, yeah? The thing is, what Matt is talking about, is just standard in actual traditional systems... he's just come up with a more limited form, and given it a new name. It's hardly new, and it's hardly news.

So two Jujutsu methods with the same goal in mind are apples and oranges? More correctly, one method is effective (sparring), and the other method is ineffective (kata).

Tell you what, when you can follow what you're being told, maybe we can discuss things. You don't understand what kata is, how it works, what it's aims are, or it's place. Again, though, the question has to be "effective at what"? If you're wanting effective for competition, you need sparring (and that's been stated from the beginning)... but, if you're training for a different context, you need to address that context... and, in many cases, that doesn't mean sparring.

Hanzou does bring up one valid point. I have made this observation in the past. He is correct in that, a lot of times what you see of a karate ka in a sparring or competitive environment they look nothing how they train. I have been mystified by this as well. My favorite karate blogger has a number of posts on it. In this first link he talks about exactly what hanzou is saying with regards to fighters not looking like how they train. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/10/faux-boxing.html

This one also talks about. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/07/melee-karates-fighting-range.html

I think it is a valid question, why do a lot of karate fighters end up looking like piss poor bouncy kickboxers?

Yeah... you know my opinion of Dan... I'm not really that impressed by these articles either, honestly. For example, he's completely failed to recognize the actual reasons for the issues he's seeing... namely the influence of mass media, the rules, and the adoption of protective equipment, as well as forcing everything into a false (alien) context from the actual application of the system itself.

Any opinions on this article?

Going to the Ground:Lessons from Law Enforcement

Sure... there are a number of leaps of logic, and a lack of understanding of the various factors that go into chosen tactics. The biggest is the assumption that, when a suspect decided to become offensive in their actions (and commonly attempted to take the officer down), it was similar to any engagement that did not involve a police officer, therefore takedowns/ground fighting are common for non-police engagements. Uh, no. The primary reason the suspects/offenders sought to take the officers down is because they were police officers. The fact that one or more person was an LEO cannot be discounted... after all, an attempt to takedown someone is an effort to control, not damage. And, when your opponent is an LEO, that means either controlling their access to weapons, or gaining control of them yourself.

The article was flawed by being unable to see past the immediate.

Here's a question for the group at large. Do any RBSD guys here train drunk? I mean, when are we most likely to get into a fight? Answer: When we've had too much to drink and aren't behaving properly. So, how realistic can your training be if you're not schnockered at least a little?

Hey, Steve. Actually training drunk? Nah, haven't heard of that... simulating the effects? That I've been involved in... ranging from role-playing being drunk (more commonly when being the attacking/aggressive side), to a range of physical methods which simulate the effects (such as loss of balance, a spinning head, and so on). Of course, when one of my guys asked one night how to best prepare to defend themselves, should they get plastered at a party, or in a bar, what type of training they should do, I suggested training their will-power, and not getting that drunk. Not the answer they were looking for, but very much an RBSD one... (and, for that matter, a TMA one as well.... many, if not all old schools would have rules that prohibited training drunk, in some cases extolling not drinking at all, and so on).

Invisible assailants would be a true test, indeed. You train for that, too?

Ha... er, yes. Well, maybe not "invisible", but close enough...

Ok I have to jump in on Hanzou's side here. Sorry that is not correct at all. I have done BJJ in my mma class and there is no way you will ever reach my throat. Secondly and this is important, reaching up to strike my eyes or throat or anything else for that matter is 2 things. 1. it is the single most foolish thing you can do and here is the reason. 2 its a gift to the person on top. Go a head reach that hand or 2 up there, makes it REALLY easy to arm bar you. Its a gift to the grappler.. NEVER reach up like that in a ground fight... I was taught the T-rex for a reason..

Agreed with this....

I grow tired of reading and hearing in person from tma artists how they don't need ground grappling they will just use dirty tricks. Sorry that is patently incorrect. THEY DO NOT WORK WITH A SEASONED GRAPPLER!! Sadly the proof I need is UFC 1-4. Eye gouging and biting and sack grabbing and hair pulling and small joint manipulation were all allowed. NOONE who tried those tactics won. Not one single TMAist won. It was the grapplers.

... less so with this. Look, "dirty tricks" aren't an instant cure-all, they're not magic touch techniques, but they can give an edge. Thing is, they need to be done in conjunction with other things. Oh, and the first UFC's (well, any competitive context) isn't really an accurate analogue of a self defence situation at all, on a number of levels.... one of which is what effect different things/actions can have. Believe it or not, some things that don't work in competitive environments work very well out of them... and vice versa.

Oh, and the "grapplers" were very much single-art sports-TMAists, for the record.

Look, no one here is disputing that a tma is a great thing for self defense on the streets were most of the attackers you will likely face are untrained to poorly trained. Most combat sport athletes that should give TMA worries and nightmares is to busy training for there competition goals and are generally good people. Getting into fights and pissing contests in bars and on the streets will screw up there dreams. Permanently. Especially for those with UFC dreams, as they do not tolerate criminals.

Kinda yes and no on this one....

For the average TMA they don't need to worry about Rouge BJJ Blackbelts roaming the streets looting and pillaging.(unless they are close to a Loyd Irving training center then watch out) Though getting tackled and put into a crappy mount and pounded. I feel that EVERY Single TMA needs to learn basic mount escape and variations such as the GNP mount escape, and escapes from side and half guard. Plus defenses from the basic joint attacks. They need to at least get experience being on the ground in the bottom position. The last thing a non grounder needs to do is panic and start flailing away. That will sap your energy and you'll be unable to fend off anything.

Every single TMA? Really? So you think that Iaido needs defence against ground and pound? Kyudo? How about Katori Shinto Ryu? How about Daito Ryu, if we want to get away from weapons?

The point here is that every martial art only has to worry about it's own context... self defence is not the context of every martial art... especially not of genuinely traditional ones... sport is not the context of every martial art... there are a number of martial arts that have no real concern for either, and have a completely different context altogether... and these are still highly effective arts... you just need to know what they're meant to be effective in, which is something that Hanzou has never really gotten an understanding of.

In this day and age there is no excuse to not atleast know these very basic ground solutions. NO need to go and simultaneously train to black belt in bjj just to survive a street ground encounter. It doesn't take that much training time to be prepared for ground street encounters...

There are heaps of "excuses" (or, better, reasons). The biggest is that it's got nothing to do with the set-up and context of the art in question. You were asking about the differences between suwari waza and ne waza in another thread recently, and I told you that the context was incredibly different... there is no reason for any of the arts within the Bujinkan, for example, to have any ground defence at all... it's just got nothing to do with the context of those Ryu-ha. If you want to use the Bujinkan's methods as a framework for modern self defence, then yeah, there's a good reason to look into it... but that's quite a different thing.

Cant believe im siding with Hanzou... You know what no im not.. He has no respect for any other martial arts. The Gracies are big into respect, and they are proponents of respecting all people and styles. You need to learn respect and stop insulting traditional artists. You claim to believe in BJJ and the Jiu Jitsu lifestyle, then actually live it and show respect and deciency and be friendly and open to other styles, not bashing them.

Really? You think the Gracies are big into respect? With the false challenges to Benny the Jet, the talking down of other arts, the promotion of Gracie BJJ as being superior to the denigration of other arts? Hmm, maybe we've had different experiences with the Gracies....

Umm sorry but no. In my quest to find the tma for me after my mma closed, I visited nearly 20 of them in a 20 minute drive and NONE of them did any form of ground grappling. If its not being practiced at least once or twice a week, then its not seriously being taught and not benefiting then its not on the syllabus.

Were in goju or shorin or Ishhin ryu is the ground fighting syllabus? Were in TKD? (ATA has a ground grappling course. No clue how crappy or not it is) Were in Muay thai?

Sorry Unless it is consistently taught every week for more then 10 minutes at a time it is not really being trained.

Im not sure how you can make that statement with a straight face and actually mean it. IF tma had a valid ground syllabus then this whole thread would never exist...

Since when is grappling meaning "ground"....?

Please inform me Ballen. If it is taught why save it for high ranking belts? That should be in the syllabus from the beginning not at the end were it does no good. I have done more then enough internet research and talking with various karateka in real life to make my assertion..

You can't give everything straight away. Some things require prior groundwork to be laid (ha, I see what I did there...!), and when you're dealing with something like, let's say, Isshin Ryu, the core of the art is standup striking with some standing grappling. The way Isshin Ryu teaches power, angling, footwork, use of body, and so on, is taught via these standing methods... there's no reason to put you on the ground if you can't do it standing up. And, contextually, the ground isn't a large consideration... so why would they need to bring it up, and possibly adversely affect the actual basis for the system and the way it teaches?

 

[SENC-33]

The throat and eye gouge thing has gotten blown way out of proportion. You BJJ guys are assuming a bit to much IMO. Posting pictures of a guy sitting on top of another guy in a controlled environment and telling me I can't hit your throat from that position is making a best case scenario for you. If my safety is threatened in a "real life" scenario and your throat presents itself for a strike it would be foolish to think I cant hit you because sooner or later you will come into range. I never said this was what I advocate as a first choice self defense technique.....

I am curious as to how many of you have actually had to defend yourself with your ground skills away from a soft mat?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The throat and eye gouge thing has gotten blown way out of proportion. You BJJ guys are assuming a bit to much IMO. Posting pictures of a guy sitting on top of another guy in a controlled environment and telling me I can't hit your throat from that position is making a best case scenario for you. If my safety is threatened in a "real life" scenario and your throat presents itself for a strike it would be foolish to think I cant hit you because sooner or later you will come into range. I never said this was what I advocate as a first choice self defense technique.....

I am curious as to how many of you have actually had to defend yourself with your ground skills away from a soft mat?

I'm not sure that we're the ones who are making assumptions. The statements that you will not be able to effectively strike the throat from the bottom of the mount isn't based on armchair speculation. It's based on observations of hundreds of fights and experience of hundreds of hours of sparring. That observation and experience tells us that the throat of the top guy doesn't "just present itself for a strike" and that if you try to engage in a striking contest from the bottom of the mount you will end up getting hurt.

That is in no way a claim that BJJ is superior for self-defense to whatever art you practice or that choosing to go to the ground in a self-defense situation is a good idea. It's just a statement about what works if you happen to end up in that particular position.

So - what do you advocate as a first choice self defense technique if you were to end up on the bottom of the mount?

 

[SENC-33]

I'm not sure that we're the ones who are making assumptions. The statements that you will not be able to effectively strike the throat from the bottom of the mount isn't based on armchair speculation. It's based on observations of hundreds of fights and experience of hundreds of hours of sparring. That observation and experience tells us that the throat of the top guy doesn't "just present itself for a strike" and that if you try to engage in a striking contest from the bottom of the mount you will end up getting hurt.

That is in no way a claim that BJJ is superior for self-defense to whatever art you practice or that choosing to go to the ground in a self-defense situation is a good idea. It's just a statement about what works if you happen to end up in that particular position.

So - what do you advocate as a first choice self defense technique if you were to end up on the bottom of the mount?

I'm done talking about the throat thing (wish I had never brought it up)......as far as what my first choice of defense is if I end up on the bottom?

I have become extremely good at keeping my body relaxed enough to help me manuever and experience has taught me not to panic. I am going to get hit so my goal is to roll over or roll the attacker over if possible and as quickly as possible. Strength, relaxation and flexibility are my best techniques. When all hell breaks loose you aint got time to look for the perfect grab.

 

[MJS]

Ok I have to jump in on Hanzou's side here. Sorry that is not correct at all. I have done BJJ in my mma class and there is no way you will ever reach my throat. Secondly and this is important, reaching up to strike my eyes or throat or anything else for that matter is 2 things. 1. it is the single most foolish thing you can do and here is the reason. 2 its a gift to the person on top. Go a head reach that hand or 2 up there, makes it REALLY easy to arm bar you. Its a gift to the grappler.. NEVER reach up like that in a ground fight... I was taught the T-rex for a reason..

I remember the first time I did that when I was learning how to grapple. Both hands went up in an attempt to create some space, and try to get the guy out of the mount, and well....armbar. LOL. The next time I did that, he moved to the high mount. Needless to say, I was up the creek without the paddle. LOL.

I grow tired of reading and hearing in person from tma artists how they don't need ground grappling they will just use dirty tricks. Sorry that is patently incorrect. THEY DO NOT WORK WITH A SEASONED GRAPPLER!! Sadly the proof I need is UFC 1-4. Eye gouging and biting and sack grabbing and hair pulling and small joint manipulation were all allowed. NOONE who tried those tactics won. Not one single TMAist won. It was the grapplers.

I hear ya. As I've said before, I took A LOT of heat on here, when I first joined, from the Kenpo guys, because I was saying that despite Kenpo teaching techniques to defend a takedown, I never really saw any ground fighting. As I said then, and still say to this day, IMHO, I feel that it's very important, to learn the basics. True, we're probably not going to face a bunch of evil Gracies', and if we did, we'd probably be helpless anyways, but the basics will certainly help against the 'average Joe' that we could face. I also like to use the Maurice Smith/Mark Coleman fight in one of the early UFCs. Mo trained with Frank Shamrock. IMO, Mo wasn't the best grappler, but despite Mark being a good wrestler, Mo was able to fend off Marks attacks, and use the basics to get back to his feet, where he used his striking, which was his strong point. He KO'd Mark with a kick to the head.

Look, no one here is disputing that a tma is a great thing for self defense on the streets were most of the attackers you will likely face are untrained to poorly trained. Most combat sport athletes that should give TMA worries and nightmares is to busy training for there competition goals and are generally good people. Getting into fights and pissing contests in bars and on the streets will screw up there dreams. Permanently. Especially for those with UFC dreams, as they do not tolerate criminals.

Yup!

For the average TMA they don't need to worry about Rouge BJJ Blackbelts roaming the streets looting and pillaging.(unless they are close to a Loyd Irving training center then watch out) Though getting tackled and put into a crappy mount and pounded. I feel that EVERY Single TMA needs to learn basic mount escape and variations such as the GNP mount escape, and escapes from side and half guard. Plus defenses from the basic joint attacks. They need to at least get experience being on the ground in the bottom position. The last thing a non grounder needs to do is panic and start flailing away. That will sap your energy and you'll be unable to fend off anything.

Amen! The basics, drilled repeatedly, IMO, will serve someone much better, than if they had nothing at all.

In this day and age there is no excuse to not atleast know these very basic ground solutions. NO need to go and simultaneously train to black belt in bjj just to survive a street ground encounter. It doesn't take that much training time to be prepared for ground street encounters...

Agreed!

Cant believe im siding with Hanzou... You know what no im not.. He has no respect for any other martial arts. The Gracies are big into respect, and they are proponents of respecting all people and styles. You need to learn respect and stop insulting traditional artists. You claim to believe in BJJ and the Jiu Jitsu lifestyle, then actually live it and show respect and deciency and be friendly and open to other styles, not bashing them.

LOL...hang on...let me :whip: a few times to put some sense back into you! Shame on you for siding with him! LOL! All kidding aside though, once again, I agree. I've said it hundreds of times...I feel that ALL arts, in some way, shape or form, can benefit from each other. If I can cross train (which I love to do BTW) with someone, and 'steal' something to make something I do better, hell yeah I'm going to do it! But no, I certainly don't see a ton of respect towards other arts from him.

 

[MJS]

Its pretty hard to respect certain TMA styles when they teach their students that they can escape a ground and pound by a seasoned grappler with a throat punch or an eye gouge. I just saw some Ninja guy teach a student some silly eye gouge as a counter to a grappler. I just can't take them seriously because its like they're living in fantasy land.

The most hilarious thing about all of this is that the escapes to that situation are easy to find, and there's multiple ways to do it. The fact that TMAs aren't teaching simple Bjj escapes just shows that they have their heads in the sand.

Beyond that, you can train in whatever you like. I respect everyone's right to choose the art that's best for them.

OTOH though, as long as you're not training with those styles, as long as you've got no intention of doing it, then who cares what they do, right? I guess I'll never understand why people think it's their job to police the MA world.

 

[Hanzou]

There are a number of things that are possible from this position; From the picture it is clear that the mounted man has both arms free so any punches that can be rained down can also be blocked with the forearms (often in the UFC you will see someone raining down punches and the only defence you will see is the flailing of arms), the grappler's wrist can also be grabbed and broken. After grabbing the wrist he can use the legs to topple him over and escape. If the mounted guy wants to strike for the face he would have to bring it closer down (striking there from that position would be unwise) by either grabbing the clothes or the arm and then striking. A bear hand fist or middle knuckle strike to the side of the neck, the temple or the facial nerve under the cheek bone would not take much power to be effective. There is also the possibility of kicking to the back of the head with the shin,instep or ball of the foot or getting the leg around the front and pulling him backwards or kneeing in the kidneys. Nothing from this position would be ideal but there are manyt things that could work. That being said, if you are put in this position then something has already gonea
terribly wrong.

Or you could bypass all of that nonsense and just do the move in the video I posted. It's easier to accomplish, doesn't require insane amounts of flexibility, and it doesn't leave your head exposed to punches and elbow from above.

Shin kick to the back of the head? :lol: Is that what TKD is teaching for ground defense these days?

 

[SENC-33]

Hanzou......how many serious altercations have you encountered in your BJJ life? I'm just curious

 

[MJS]

To be fair we are ranging between professional fighters, highly trained martial artists, not so highly trained martial artists and the Joe Average street thug who might be a seasoned brawler or an untrained guy with too much grog in him.

Now as was said 50 pages back, it is virtually impossible to compare TMAs with MMAs. For 40 pages Hanzou has been bitching because TMAs don't compete in competition.

Agreed!

But let's look at this last little bit of grappling. Escaping the mount is standard fare for basic grapplers. I was taught not to allow the guy on top to get the high mount in the first place. To use that as an example of why someone can't grab your throat or gouge your eyes is like me saying that you are not going to be able to do much when I have you in a good rear naked choke. The fight was really over before that time. Having said that, it is still possible for a trained person to escape a rear naked choke and it is still possible for a trained person to escape a high mount.

I was taught not to allow the top guy to get that high up as well. Like I said, escape isn't impossible from that position, obviously much more difficult than the regular mount, but for someone with no ground exp., well, that's why I said that they better hope luck is on their side. Regardless of the position, high mount or when they're on your stomach, even if the bottom guy could reach the face, he's not going to have the power that the top guy will.

So let's start comparing apples with apples. It makes no sense to compare beginners with advanced grapplers or vice versa. As I said from page one, you will never be able to compare MMA with TMA but if you are reasonably trained in either discipline both are practical for self defence. But don't for one moment believe TMAs don't possess basic grappling skills.
:asian:

Oh I'm sure they do. For myself though, I like to test my stuff out with those that specialize in a certain area. If I can improve on a Kenpo takedown defense, by having a grappler do the takedown, well, IMO, I just made myself that much better. Is this a requirement of the TMAs or anyone for that matter? Of course not. It's just something that I like to do. A bit of a reality check, so to speak.

 

[Hanzou]

OTOH though, as long as you're not training with those styles, as long as you've got no intention of doing it, then who cares what they do, right? I guess I'll never understand why people think it's their job to police the MA world.

Because its wrong, that's why. It just smacks of some TMA instructor believing their art is "complete" and has all the answers instead of simply incorporating an ability outside his art that is simpler and more effective. That is a very dangerous and counterintuitive mindset to have.

You think I'm not going to use the front cut takedown because it comes from Kung Fu?

Nope! It's an awesome takedown, and I'm sharing it with my Bjj brothers and sisters.

 

[MJS]

Umm sorry but no. In my quest to find the tma for me after my mma closed, I visited nearly 20 of them in a 20 minute drive and NONE of them did any form of ground grappling. If its not being practiced at least once or twice a week, then its not seriously being taught and not benefiting then its not on the syllabus.

Were in goju or shorin or Ishhin ryu is the ground fighting syllabus? Were in TKD? (ATA has a ground grappling course. No clue how crappy or not it is) Were in Muay thai?

Sorry Unless it is consistently taught every week for more then 10 minutes at a time it is not really being trained.

Im not sure how you can make that statement with a straight face and actually mean it. IF tma had a valid ground syllabus then this whole thread would never exist...

Well, this is what I was thinking, when I wasn't seeing it in Kenpo. I've had some Kenpo guys tell me that what you can do standing, you should be able to apply on the ground. Hmm...ok, well, if you say so, but personally, I'd much rather spend the time learning an actual proven escape, rather than trying to make something I do standing, work while laying down. Not saying you can't add in bits and pieces, but you know what I mean.

 

[MJS]

... less so with this. Look, "dirty tricks" aren't an instant cure-all, they're not magic touch techniques, but they can give an edge. Thing is, they need to be done in conjunction with other things. Oh, and the first UFC's (well, any competitive context) isn't really an accurate analogue of a self defence situation at all, on a number of levels.... one of which is what effect different things/actions can have. Believe it or not, some things that don't work in competitive environments work very well out of them... and vice versa.

Oh, and the "grapplers" were very much single-art sports-TMAists, for the record.

I agree Chris. IMO though, I think one of the biggest problems, is when people talk about those 'dirty tricks' as if they are in fact the saving grace. Hey, I came from a Kenpo background, where every tech in the system has those 'dirty tricks' in them. And yes, I'm all for using them, providing they're used in the context that you mentioned above.

 

[MJS]

Because its wrong, that's why. It just smacks of some TMA instructor believing their art is "complete" and has all the answers instead of simply incorporating an ability outside his art that is simpler and more effective. That is a very dangerous and counterintuitive mindset to have.

Well, be that as it may, don't you think that your time would be better spent putting in the blood, sweat and tears by training, rather than worrying what the school down the road is doing?

You think I'm not going to use the front cut takedown because it comes from Kung Fu?

Nope! It's an awesome takedown, and I'm sharing it with my Bjj brothers and sisters.

LMFAO!! Well, considering that you've pretty much bashed the hell out of every TMA out there, I'd find what you just said, hard to believe, but if you say so....

 

[ballen0351]

Please inform me Ballen. If it is taught why save it for high ranking belts? That should be in the syllabus from the beginning not at the end were it does no good. I have done more then enough internet research and talking with various karateka in real life to make my assertion..

That's like asking why are some katas taught to only black belts and some taught to white belts

Beginners need to learn basics. There are grappling techniques in the more advanced Kara and Bunkai.

 

[K-man]

Oh I'm sure they do. For myself though, I like to test my stuff out with those that specialize in a certain area. If I can improve on a Kenpo takedown defense, by having a grappler do the takedown, well, IMO, I just made myself that much better. Is this a requirement of the TMAs or anyone for that matter? Of course not. It's just something that I like to do. A bit of a reality check, so to speak.

Exactly. One of my training partners is a BJJ black belt and he also trains security guards. If I need to know something I just need to ask. He soon let's me know if something won't be effective and that doesn't just apply to ground work.

 

[SENC-33]

Exactly. One of my training partners is a BJJ black belt and he also trains security guards. If I need to know something I just need to ask. He soon let's me know if something won't be effective and that doesn't just apply to ground work.

Training with other backgrounds is paramount IMO.....especially when it comes to how they move. I get asked all the time to stop in at different gyms to give them some exposure to Systema.

 

[K-man]

Training with other backgrounds is paramount IMO.....especially when it comes to how they move. I get asked all the time to stop in at different gyms to give them some exposure to Systema.

When I was in Toronto a few years back I visited Vladimir Vasiliev's school. Unfortunately he was in the US conducting a seminar but it was interesting to train there nevertheless. Another thread talks of principles and the principles of Systema apply right across the board. I've also been to seminars by Alex Kostic. Interesting stuff.

 

[SENC-33]

When I was in Toronto a few years back I visited Vladimir Vasiliev's school. Unfortunately he was in the US conducting a seminar but it was interesting to train there nevertheless. Another thread talks of principles and the principles of Systema apply right across the board. I've also been to seminars by Alex Kostic. Interesting stuff.

Alex is a very good instructor as well.......Kevin Secours is the best IMO and Val Riazanov. Great teachers!

 

[SENC-33]

When I was in Toronto a few years back I visited Vladimir Vasiliev's school. Unfortunately he was in the US conducting a seminar but it was interesting to train there nevertheless. Another thread talks of principles and the principles of Systema apply right across the board. I've also been to seminars by Alex Kostic. Interesting stuff.

I assume you were lucky enough to experience Alex "systema" punch? What was your initial reaction?