MMA vs TMA

[SENC-33]

This video is similar to some of the things I like to do in my training granted it's hard to understand when slowed down. I like to create space for strikes and roll if I can. If I am forced to roll over into a less than ideal position and the bad guy is still on top of me I try to buck, twist, arch up, throw elbows and mini kicks, anything I can do to keep moving until I can get in a better position or escape.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Actually, having just watched the whole video in my previous post, the little round of light sparring at the end where the blind folded student is allowed to see again is a better example of light Mantis boxing. Interesting experiment.

 

[MJS]

I don't know what to say. If I am ever in the position of having a super human bjj master on top of me pounding my brains in ill remember this advice. Do you guys ever leave the safety of a mat? You ever train on pavement or gravel or in the woods in the brush? How bout in water? When you are in a situation of survival looking pretty isn't your objective.

IMHO, I don't think that it has anything to do with being 'super human' but instead, simply a) understanding the basics of grappling, and b) training against these things. I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself, there have been many times while grappling with one of my training partners, we'd go slower and isolate certain things. One of the things we'd do, would be whoever was on the bottom at the moment, regardless of the position, would try to target vital areas, ie: groin, throat, eyes, and see if contact could be made. A small percentage of the time, contact could be made, however, depending on the situation, even if one of those targets could be reached, there wouldn't be enough energy in the strike to be worried about it.

As I said, I came from a Kenpo background. Pretty much every technique, has some sort of rake, poke, gouge, etc, in it. I certainly do not discount the value in these 'dirty tricks' but for me, I don't bank all of my money on them. Why? Because situation depending, those dirty tricks might not be the best to use. IMHO, if someone has to rely on those tools for everything they do, then I'd say they've seriously missed out on things in their training. If all someone has is A, then I guess if someone grabs them, they're always going to fall back on the eye gouge, when something else would be better, again situation depending.

 

[SENC-33]

IMHO, I don't think that it has anything to do with being 'super human' but instead, simply a) understanding the basics of grappling, and b) training against these things. I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself, there have been many times while grappling with one of my training partners, we'd go slower and isolate certain things. One of the things we'd do, would be whoever was on the bottom at the moment, regardless of the position, would try to target vital areas, ie: groin, throat, eyes, and see if contact could be made. A small percentage of the time, contact could be made, however, depending on the situation, even if one of those targets could be reached, there wouldn't be enough energy in the strike to be worried about it.

As I said, I came from a Kenpo background. Pretty much every technique, has some sort of rake, poke, gouge, etc, in it. I certainly do not discount the value in these 'dirty tricks' but for me, I don't bank all of my money on them. Why? Because situation depending, those dirty tricks might not be the best to use. IMHO, if someone has to rely on those tools for everything they do, then I'd say they've seriously missed out on things in their training. If all someone has is A, then I guess if someone grabs them, they're always going to fall back on the eye gouge, when something else would be better, again situation depending.

You can train technique all day until you are blue in the face and I still do just like everyone else, but when the **** hits the fan, your life is perhaps on the line and everybody isn't aligned in a perfect position like they are inside the dojo you had better be able to improvise and rely on instincts and brute force. There isn't time to pick and choose in most situations. If I can bring you in long enough to get my thumb in your eye or strike your throat your will to continue will be broken and/or severly diminished. Strikes come naturally to me and are what I look for because I want to end it and get back up. If I wanted to stay on the ground looking for control methods I would train that way. I am always taking into consideration that more people could be involved. What do you do as a grappler when you are on the ground locking in an armbar and somebody you didn't see before charges in to kick your skull in?

 

[MJS]

OK. I think I owe everyone here an apology. I am obviously totally wrong in my assumption that I train a TMA. I am thoroughly confused and maybe someone on the forum can tell me what I am doing wrong. I would like to describe our training session from tonight. Almost all my high ranked guys were away so it left me carrying the can, so to speak.

We started out with a bit of a warm up and then a bit of sticky hands, like the Kung Fu guys do but with a little bit of Chi Na for good measure, not to mention the application of some locks and holds. Some of the guys got some sore fingers but nothing broke that I was aware of. Then I thought I should teach some basics because we don't do as much of that as we should. To much reality based stuff usually. I started out teaching all the useless stances that you find in our Goju system. Well, not quite all but half a dozen or so. You know the ones, totally impractical for self defence but part of the fluff you need in TMA to get your next belt.

Then I got the guys to move forward in those stupid stances, not punching, just hands up in the ready position. Then we just stood around for a while discussing where in the kata, you know that other useless fluff you need for grading, you would find those stances and how did they work.

Well we explored how they could all be used to get your opponent to the ground, mostly variations of hip throws. Funny thing was the person being thrown almost always ended up in a choke or potential neck break. Must have just been a coincidence I know but surprising just the same. Seeing our opponent was now on the ground I thought of Hanzou, you know, what would a top MMA fighter do in this situation. So I told the guys just to jump on top of the guy on the ground and pretend to punch the crap out of him. That was going well but I started to feel really sorry for the guy on the bottom. I got him to try and get away, you know what I mean, escaping the mount. Well my guys don't know a lot so often they were too high up on the chest so I had to get them to escape the high mount too. Some rolled over and let the top guy get a choke on. Bugger! It was getting too much so we had to do a bit on escaping from rear naked chokes as well. Others managed to roll their opponent over but they ended up in a type of scissor lock. I think the grappling guys call it 'guard'. Of course by now I am totally out of my tree. Not only had we escaped from the mount and the rear naked choke we had to pass the guard too.

After all this exertion on the ground I thought, in for a penny, in for a pound and got the guys to start applying various other chokes from the standing position because that was the position they all seemed to end up in from the stupid kata moves we had been practising. Again it's not nice seeing these young guys struggling to breathe so we had to practise escaping from those as well. I'm almost embarrassed to admit, I showed the guys that they could use their teeth. Well we played around for a bit and played with some nasty vital points on the head. Surprising really how much a knuckle in the right place can almost cause paralysis! We call it Kyusho.

By this time 2 hours had passed and we hadn't done anything with weapons so I grabbed a couple of knives and away we went again. I know this isn't at all traditional but a lot of the moves were very similar to the moves in our kata. What a coincidence! Half an hour later and time was up. Really just another day at the office.

I do feel really bad. We didn't have time for any kata tonight and we didn't get a chance to practise the bunkai. What am I doing wrong? :idunno:

The difference between you and A LOT of other schools/teachers out there, is you are going over this, you are explaining it, and you're making it work. I've told this story many times, but it's worth repeating. I remember when I was coming up thru the ranks in Kenpo. We'd go over kata. I would often ask, what the moves were for. I mean, there must have been some reason for these moves, as I couldn't imagine just going thru moves with no purpose behind them. Here's how the typical conversation went:

Me: I'm curious as to what this move is. How come we step and block like this? Is there some sort of application for it?

Teacher: Well, we do it because (insert VERY LONG pause) well, we do it because that's the way it's done in the kata.

Me: (Insert LONG moment of silence, while I try to comprehend the BS that I just heard) Ok. Thanks.

The same could be said about the self defense techniques. In Kenpo, you'll notice that we have A LOT of techs per belt, for various attacks, ie: grabs, punches, kicks, weapons. While the attack appears to be the same for 2 techs, ie: a rear bearhug, the application of what is really happening, is very different. Ex: Lapel grab. Some of these defenses will be if the badguy is pulling and some are if he's pushing. However, in the vast majority of schools I've seen, not once heard this explained to the students. Why not? Because they legit don't know? Because they don't care? Because they themselves were never taught?

I thank God that I finally found a teacher who makes corrections, is a stickler for perfection, and not only explains, but shows why things are done a certain way. How refreshing after 20+yrs of NOT seeing it.

 

[MJS]

Yes there are tons of techniques that could work. I could try lots of really cool techniques to reverse a mount. Is it guarenteed to work when my well being is at stake in a potentially hostile situation? HELL NO......IF you get me on my back I am going to immediately try to roll over and get back to my feet because that is naturally what my body tells me to do. If you think you can easily choke me out because I am in what you think is a good position good luck to you. I will be kicking, bucking, wiggling, throwing elbows, turning, whatever I have to do to survive and escape. If you can get a good hold on me, maintain that hold and choke me out when my brain is in survival mode you are one hell of a man. What I encourage people I train to do is survive and use their instincts they were born with. You may not agree with that approach but in my mind teaching somebody to rely on techniques practiced on a mat in a controlled environment is just as foolish. IF you ever find yourself in a situation with multiple people involved and you get your skull kicked in while performing a rear naked choke maybe you will have time to reflect on this difference of opinion while YOU are recovering in the hospital

Everything you say is true if both people are completely incompetent on the ground. But, if the person you're giving a ride to has more than 6 months to a year training 3 or more times per week at the average grappling school, your instincts are only going to put you in more danger.

Yes. We are saying that there are tons of training that will work. Bucking, rolling, kicking, wiggling and throwing elbows are kind of ridiculous, to the point where I'd even be leery of them working on an untrained person, unless you have a significant size or strength advantage. I give you less than 60 seconds of bucking, kicking, or wiggling before all you're doing is gassing and panting and have rendered yourself completely helpless. In BJJ, we call that spazzing, and it's what every amped up, athletic, ego driven, tough guy does the first time they panic. And they panic because they realize that all of the things they SAID they'd do don't work.

In fact, one of the first things I share with new white belts is that the first thing they will learn is that their instincts suck.

Adding a billion more what if's to the situation don't change any of the above points, because we can both play that game. What if I'm the one with friends? I can take you to the ground where you're defenseless, and MY friends will kick you in the head. You will be helpless. What if I'm the one with the knife? What if I'm on top and you're the one who's being ground into the rocks? What ifs work both ways and we can play that game ad infinitum.

Once again, I and several others haven't said that BJJ is the greatest martial art ever. It is what it is, and while I agree that self defense is something else, and that staying on the ground in a fight is a bad idea, that's philosophy. And philosophically, we agree.

I don't know who you are, but I'm willing to accept at face value that you have experience as a bouncer. But none of that changes the points made above. You have wacky ideas about BJJ. That's just all there is to it. And the more you say, the more clear this becomes.

Gotta go with Steve on this. When I was getting my first exposure to the ground, the guy I was working with encouraged me to do just that....whatever I could to get him out of the mount position. Tried punching= proved to be useless as you can't generate enough power from the bottom. Tried to use my hands to push= that resulted in armlocks. Tried to turn= ok, he let me do that, and just rode with it. Now I was screwed because he was on my back. I was then choked. Oh yeah, even when I tried to defend my neck, he simply brought his forearm across the bridge of my nose and cranked. That got a tap! LOL!

 

[MJS]

Steve and Tony

If you were giving a seminar to a group of people on ground self defense (with zero experience in anything) and you had 3 hours to instruct them on what to do in the case that they were attacked and taken to the ground by a BJJ grappler, what would you teach them? Would you teach them a couple BJJ techniques and send them on their way hoping for the best? Would you teach them to prey to god and hope everything turns out ok? Or would you teach them to scrap and fight for their lives with everything they have inside them? I'm talking a group of strangers with no training that will go out into the world with what you have taught them in 3 hours and never step foot in a dojo again.

I'm not Steve or Tony, I'm Mike, but I'll comment on this as well. What would I teach? Just what Steve said...some basic, high percentage moves. I'm sorry, but if you think that you could just take someone with no ground experience, put them on the ground, tell them to escape and have it actually be effective, well, I think you're living in a fantasy land, no disrespect intended. That's akin to throwing someone in the deep end of the pool, if they don't know how to swim. " There ya go! Now figure out how to survive!!!"

 

[MJS]

.Not at all impossible, and since you ask (sort of), I don't think it would even take equivalent skill. It's far easier to defend than to attack in grappling. I'd say that a year of deliberate training in BJJ would be sufficient to develop pretty solid skills adequate for self defense. Provided you aren't being attacked by a BJJ black belt, you will have the body awareness and skill to handle yourself in a bad situation. More is better, but it really depends upon what you want.

Exactly! I you and I were on the mat, odds are, you would tap me every time. Why? Well, it's a no brainer. You've put in a hell of a lot more mat time than I, you've trained to a higher level. There's probably more, but you get my point. Now, with the small amount of knowledge that I have, would I be able to deal with some of the guys at the Kenpo schools that Ive been to? Yes. And I have. During some sparring sessions at one of my first Kenpo schools, we'd often open it up to a controlled, anything goes setting. We were still geared up for safety, but sweeps, take downs, G&P, it was all allowed. Funny (well not really) how a lot of these guys were like fish out of water, once they went down.

 

[MJS]

Not at all. I made that pretty clear.....but I value escape and get to your feet quickly training over staying on the ground rolling around training. If the situation is one where "friends" or multiple bad guys could become part of the equation staying on the ground will get your skull kicked in. If I can't get to my feet I am going for throat, eyes, groin but I have already been told I "can't" accomplish such a feat with a super human grappler on top of me which is news to me.

As do I. I've preached that many times. For me, I'm more interested in learning some effective basics, some counters, escapes, some subs, and drilling the hell out of them, rather than enrolling in the local BJJ club. I'm not against that idea, just that at this point in my life, it's not something high on the list. Down the road? Who knows. My point is, and always has been: learn some basics, and drill them like there's no tomorrow. Odds are you'll survive against the average joe. Against a BJJ blue, purple, black? Probably not. But if the person doesn't know or understand the ground game, all the wild arm swinging is pretty moot and crazy, IMHO.

 

[SENC-33]

Gotta go with Steve on this. When I was getting my first exposure to the ground, the guy I was working with encouraged me to do just that....whatever I could to get him out of the mount position. Tried punching= proved to be useless as you can't generate enough power from the bottom. Tried to use my hands to push= that resulted in armlocks. Tried to turn= ok, he let me do that, and just rode with it. Now I was screwed because he was on my back. I was then choked. Oh yeah, even when I tried to defend my neck, he simply brought his forearm across the bridge of my nose and cranked. That got a tap! LOL!

Don't take this the wrong way but the guy working with you wasn't trying to hurt you or kill you. Granted that is a difficult thing to simulate......I am able to do it but everybody has to go with what they are confident with

 

[MJS]

SENC's belief that he is immune to choke holds has been the highlight of this discussion.


His defense against the Mount by giving up his back (i.e. escaping from a vulnerable position by getting into a MORE vulnerable position) is a close second.

You know, this is probably the first thing I've read from you, that I actually agree with 100%. Holy ****, is there a full moon tonight? LOL!

 

[MJS]

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I've never said one way or the other about what I train. I simply observed that when you shared some details of your defensive strategy, it was a pretty naive and unrealistic. You presume we don't teach students how to get up from the ground safely. And the more you say, the more obviously uninformed you are about what BJJ training is.

For what it's worth, we have drills and techniques for regaining your feet safely. One drill, for example, is typically called the technical standup, the idea being to create space and stand up in a way that doesn't bring your head forward and mitigates the risks during the transition from the ground back to your feet. Here's one example from Stefan Kesting, a guy up in Vancouver, BC:

Lots of value in that. I remember when the guy that was training me, told me to get up, and when I started, he simply took me back down. Sometimes, we'd drill half our workout, with just working on getting back to your feet, the right way.

 

[SENC-33]

As do I. I've preached that many times. For me, I'm more interested in learning some effective basics, some counters, escapes, some subs, and drilling the hell out of them, rather than enrolling in the local BJJ club. I'm not against that idea, just that at this point in my life, it's not something high on the list. Down the road? Who knows. My point is, and always has been: learn some basics, and drill them like there's no tomorrow. Odds are you'll survive against the average joe. Against a BJJ blue, purple, black? Probably not. But if the person doesn't know or understand the ground game, all the wild arm swinging is pretty moot and crazy, IMHO.

I know plenty of chokes. I can do arm bars, ankle locks the whole nine yards. Why would I in self defense? What would a black belt in BJJ do when he is choking a guy out and 2 guys rush in to kick his skull in?

 

[MJS]

You can train technique all day until you are blue in the face and I still do just like everyone else, but when the **** hits the fan, your life is perhaps on the line and everybody isn't aligned in a perfect position like they are inside the dojo you had better be able to improvise and rely on instincts and brute force. There isn't time to pick and choose in most situations. If I can bring you in long enough to get my thumb in your eye or strike your throat your will to continue will be broken and/or severly diminished. Strikes come naturally to me and are what I look for because I want to end it and get back up. If I wanted to stay on the ground looking for control methods I would train that way. I am always taking into consideration that more people could be involved. What do you do as a grappler when you are on the ground locking in an armbar and somebody you didn't see before charges in to kick your skull in?

I'd rather not speak on how others train, but for me, the first line of your post, implies that I don't train outside of the cozy, comfy confines of the perfect world training hall. LOL! My friend, that couldn't be further from the truth. I love doing scenario drills. I love doing those spontaneous reaction drills, where your training partner just randomly attacks, and I have no idea what he's going to do. THAT type of training, IMHO, is key to anyone who is serious about self defense.

In the end, despite how it may appear, you and I probably have a lot in common, training wise, though as I said, it might not look that way because often on the forum, misunderstandings happen because we're reading vs. actually hearing or seeing what the other guy is talking about. Furthermore, I'm far from a grappler. I enjoy it, but as I've said, it's not something I train daily. I'm primarily a stand up guy, who trained in Kenpo, and currently trains in Arnis and Kyokushin. So when you imply that *I* prefer to stay on the ground, no, that is not correct at all.

 

[SENC-33]

I'd rather not speak on how others train, but for me, the first line of your post, implies that I don't train outside of the cozy, comfy confines of the perfect world training hall. LOL! My friend, that couldn't be further from the truth. I love doing scenario drills. I love doing those spontaneous reaction drills, where your training partner just randomly attacks, and I have no idea what he's going to do. THAT type of training, IMHO, is key to anyone who is serious about self defense.

In the end, despite how it may appear, you and I probably have a lot in common, training wise, though as I said, it might not look that way because often on the forum, misunderstandings happen because we're reading vs. actually hearing or seeing what the other guy is talking about. Furthermore, I'm far from a grappler. I enjoy it, but as I've said, it's not something I train daily. I'm primarily a stand up guy, who trained in Kenpo, and currently trains in Arnis and Kyokushin. So when you imply that *I* prefer to stay on the ground, no, that is not correct at all.

I was just making a general comment about anybody not you personally

 

[MJS]

Don't take this the wrong way but the guy working with you wasn't trying to hurt you or kill you. Granted that is a difficult thing to simulate......I am able to do it but everybody has to go with what they are confident with

No offense taken. However, this does still imply that I don't train out of the box. In that given situation I described, no, of course not, but that was my intro. to the ground. However, I like to mix up my training. Sometimes we work something specific, and other times, we'll put on some gear, ie: mouth piece, mma type gloves, and just go. Fat lips, bloody noses, bumps and bruises are all part of the game, and I've gotten my fair share of them. Many of my training partners outside of the school, are former/current LEO, CO, etc., and I enjoy working with them, as they tend to keep things more real.

 

[SENC-33]

I think the confusion here isn't about whether or not a person should train the ground for self defense. The confusion seems to be about training philosophy.

You SHOULD train the ground......But I prefer to focus on strikes and escapes instead of chokes and locks. My concern isn't centered around whether or not I am being attacked by a BJJ black belt. My concern is ALWAYS the unknown which could be multiple attackers.

 

[MJS]

I know plenty of chokes. I can do arm bars, ankle locks the whole nine yards. Why would I in self defense? What would a black belt in BJJ do when he is choking a guy out and 2 guys rush in to kick his skull in?

For the same reason I wouldn't just haul off and bust the guy up, if it wasn't warranted. The drunk idiot who is, well, being an idiot, might not need his arm broke, eyes gouged, or teeth knocked out if he simply puts his hand on you, when a simple controlling method would work. Assess the situations accordingly. If the situation warrants busting the guy up, then do so.

 

[SENC-33]

No offense taken. However, this does still imply that I don't train out of the box. In that given situation I described, no, of course not, but that was my intro. to the ground. However, I like to mix up my training. Sometimes we work something specific, and other times, we'll put on some gear, ie: mouth piece, mma type gloves, and just go. Fat lips, bloody noses, bumps and bruises are all part of the game, and I've gotten my fair share of them. Many of my training partners outside of the school, are former/current LEO, CO, etc., and I enjoy working with them, as they tend to keep things more real.

Sorry if there was any confusion and thumbs up for mixing it up!

 

[MJS]

I think the confusion here isn't about whether or not a person should train the ground for self defense. The confusion seems to be about training philosophy.

You SHOULD train the ground......But I prefer to focus on strikes and escapes instead of chokes and locks. My concern isn't centered around whether or not I am being attacked by a BJJ black belt. My concern is ALWAYS the unknown which could be multiple attackers.

Agreed. Situational awareness is key, and it's amazing how many people I see when I'm out, that have their head in the clouds. Too busy texting or having the phone to their ear, to notice potential hazards. To each their own I suppose. For me, it's just another tool in the box. If all else fails, and all I have is a limb or something the guy is presenting, well, I'd rather lock, choke or try to break something.