MMA vs TMA

[K-man]

[/I][/COLOR]

Again, there's a difference between free form fighting (sparring) and pre-arranged drilling of techniques (Kata and Drills). Surely you know the difference.

Sure. Free form fighting is one thing, sparring is between boxers, (see definition below), and pre arranged drilling I don't do. Kata performance and application is none of those things in karate. So, yes. I know the difference and you don't. So what?

In the end, needless amounts of kata and drilling tend to develop sub par martial arts. I've seen the results over and over again.

Oh dear. More crap. You have never seen kata used as it was intended so why do you keep trying to put people down who are using it as intended? I have seen literally hundreds of people who can't make locks and holds work properly. That doesn't make the locks and holds ineffective. It means the practitioner is not performing them in the correct manner.

Here's what happens; This is reportedly a Traditional Mantis Kung Fu school;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsArkm55b_0&feature=youtu.be

And beginners having a bit of fun. So what does it show. You keep posting video with no relevance.

And here is an MMA school;

Unfortunately, no one can produce a traditional martial art sparring video that can show anything other than the slop-fests that we currently have on the net.

By definition there cannot be traditional martial art sparring! Why are you so thick?

OK! As you obviously don't understand the real meaning so sparring I'll go for the dictionary.

Oxford Dictionary (English)

verb (spars, sparring, sparred)


1. make the motions of boxing without landing heavy blows, as a form of training:
one contestant broke his nose while sparring


argue with someone without marked hostility:
mother and daughter spar regularly over drink, drugs, and career

2. (of a gamecock) fight with the feet or spurs.

As English is not your first language we'll try another

Webster Dictionary (American)

2 spar intransitive verb
: to box with someone as a form of training or practice


: to argue with someone in a friendly way
sparredspar·ring
Full Definition of SPAR


1
a : box; especially : to gesture without landing a blow to draw one's opponent or create an opening
b : to engage in a practice or exhibition bout of boxing
2
: skirmish, wrangle
3
: to strike or fight with feet or spurs in the manner of a gamecock

Oh! That's not what you want either. Let's try again.

Dictionary.com

sparring partner
noun
a boxer who spars with and otherwise serves to train a boxer who is preparing for a bout.
Also called sparring mate.


Origin:
1905–10

Mmm! That might explain why we don't have sparring. We are not boxers, we don't train like boxers and we aren't training for competition. Isn't that strange?

And when the Japanese Goju style I used to train was doing that sort of thing, we called it kumite, not sparring.

 

[Dinkydoo]

[/I][/COLOR]

Here's what happens; This is reportedly a Traditional Mantis Kung Fu school;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsArkm55b_0&feature=youtu.be

1. These look like beginners.
2. If its the same Russian club that have multiple videos like this on YouTube, I doubt they are teaching traditional mantis - none of it looks like northern mantis.
3. As per the above, very little Seven Star Praying Mantis on show here.

Seven Star Praying Mantis is quite a complicated style so in cases where a club is letting beginners spar it's best to spar at a slower pace to develop good technique and reactions than to go full blast like this. Not a fan of these big protective helmets either. I just have a foam one the protects primarily the back of my head (in case i fall) and taking a punch to the face is about as real as it gets whilst wearing it - control is required from both sparring.

We had people trying to spar like this in the style I started in 2.5 years ago too and they'd get told off time and time again for it. I do think that people spar like this when they have been given a bunch of techniques to train but either haven't been taught the fighting strategy that allows them to use them properly or simply haven't grasped the concept yet.

When sparring THE most beneficial thing you can do when you're a Kung Fu beginner is to force yourself into fighting in the style in which you've been taught. If that means that you take an extra couple of digs then so be it, you'll learn a hell of a lot more than simply reverse punching and flailing your arms about trying to take each others head off.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris Parker you said. "Hi Kframe, considering your recent change in your martial system, perhaps I can help here as well.

The majority of what you do will be "scripted". However, it should be understood that that approach has been the norm (and continues to be the norm) for anyone wanting to deal with actual violence, not sparring. Why? Because it's much easier to teach methods of movement, tactics, principles, and so on that way. You learn to do things the way that the tried and tested system has learnt is the best. The problem is when people stop at the "do this slow so you can remember the whole sequence" level... that's the absolute beginning, and is actually something you do before you begin actually training the art. When these "scripted" actions (Japanese kata... paired) are done properly, it should be at an speed, power, intensity, and range/distance of an actual fight... and it should be done at a level where you can't "remember" what the next step is... you simply do it instinctively. That's the real aim of kata training here. And, when you get it wrong, you get hit. Hard. Properly. For real."

Thank you for the videos you posted. That was awesome watching that first kata video. They were really moving there, I was kinda shocked by the level of speed they were using. I was hoping you could give me the time stamp in the second video that the guy gets hit. I watched it and they were moving so quickly I missed it.

Honestly if more people did kata like that, with that kind of speed and intent, more people would respect TMA. To many tma treat kata like a glorified dance.

Ellis's demonstration wasn't really that fast... but the intensity was definitely there! For some speed, I'd go to this one from Katori Shinto Ryu... specifically the Gogyo no Tachi from about 2:20 onwards...

With regards to the older clip of Katori Shinto Ryu, the hit is in the first kata, at 0:35 (when one of the practitioners goes to a kneeling position, he doesn't get his sword up in time for the block). It's easier to see if you watch the clip in full-screen mode.

So why is it that we don't question a boxers ability to knock someone out, despite them training in a sport? Could it be that we fully recognize that despite the fact that they're training in a sport, they've developed skills and attributes that can be utilized outside a sport environment?

Seriously? Boxers train with the aim of a knockout... so why would it be questioned? But, on the other hand, not all boxing matches end in a knockout... so is that an indication of the failing of the training method? After all, they spar all the time, and still can't get consistent success...

The point is, you don't seem to understand the aim of the training in traditional systems... nor how it is achieved. You're only applying your very narrow criteria (what you think equals "effective", without ever even realizing that "effective" can mean completely different things), and you're missing the fact that your sparring doesn't guarantee success in your self-imposed context either.

I don't find that unbelievable at all. You could very well be a naturally big mofo who can knock people out without any training whatsoever. However, its important to note that just because you have the power to knock someone out without much effort, doesn't mean that the smaller guy next to you can do the same thing. That's why pressure testing what you've learned outside of drills and kata (i.e. sparring) is important.

Uh... I'm not sure you read my description. And, for the record, I'm not a big guy... so, uh, no.... wrong.

Oh, here's a fun fact for you... sparring isn't pressure testing.

For example, in Bjj we have a few female practitioners, and they all have to roll. Why? Because line drilling and demonstrations arent sufficient enough for the application of the technique. You simply cannot simulate a person several times your body weight trying to control you on the ground, in the seated position, or standing up. Further, drilling has a predetermined stopping point, rolling does not. Rolling doesn't end until someone submits. If a 120lb woman can submit a 250lb guy she's better off than a woman who wins numerous kata/form competitions.

Wouldn't you agree?

Firstly, you don't seem to get what I'm talking about as kata... secondly, the apples aren't fond of always being compared to the oranges.

Well with all due respect, I think that's a bit silly. However, you guys are free to train any way you deem necessary towards accomplishing your goals.

I don't think you have a clue what respect is due, so forgive me if I take that as a bit disingenuous... nor do I think you've understood the goals, the aims, or the methods. We ain't sport, and frankly, you don't understand that.

 

[Hanzou]

1. These look like beginners.
2. If its the same Russian club that have multiple videos like this on YouTube, I doubt they are teaching traditional mantis - none of it looks like northern mantis.
3. As per the above, very little Seven Star Praying Mantis on show here.

Nah, its a school in the states. In fact, its pretty close to my neck of the woods. The instructor claims to be teaching traditional mantis, and if you follow his videos he shows a couple of traditional mantis movements.

We had people trying to spar like this in the style I started in 2.5 years ago too and they'd get told off time and time again for it. I do think that people spar like this when they have been given a bunch of techniques to train but either haven't been taught the fighting strategy that allows them to use them properly or simply haven't grasped the concept yet.

When sparring THE most beneficial thing you can do when you're a Kung Fu beginner is to force yourself into fighting in the style in which you've been taught. If that means that you take an extra couple of digs then so be it, you'll learn a hell of a lot more than simply reverse punching and flailing your arms about trying to take each others head off.

Well according to the publisher of the video, some of these students are intermediate. Unfortunately, it falls into the same pattern I've seen before; tradtional martial arts looking nothing like their kata or demonstration forms when actually fighting/sparring.

Could you explain why this is the case? Why do people trained in a very distinctive looking style like Mantis end up fighting like sloppy kickboxers?.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Im still waiting to see Rome.

 

[Hanzou]

Seriously? Boxers train with the aim of a knockout... so why would it be questioned? But, on the other hand, not all boxing matches end in a knockout... so is that an indication of the failing of the training method? After all, they spar all the time, and still can't get consistent success...

The point is, you don't seem to understand the aim of the training in traditional systems... nor how it is achieved. You're only applying your very narrow criteria (what you think equals "effective", without ever even realizing that "effective" can mean completely different things), and you're missing the fact that your sparring doesn't guarantee success in your self-imposed context either.

See my earlier quote about the female grappler being able to submit someone much larger than herself. That's my criteria of effective. I have yet to see anyone consider doing amazing kata to pop music as "effective".

Uh... I'm not sure you read my description. And, for the record, I'm not a big guy... so, uh, no.... wrong.

Oh, here's a fun fact for you... sparring isn't pressure testing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness

Firstly, you don't seem to get what I'm talking about as kata... secondly, the apples aren't fond of always being compared to the oranges.

So two Jujutsu methods with the same goal in mind are apples and oranges? More correctly, one method is effective (sparring), and the other method is ineffective (kata).

 

[Kframe]

Hanzou does bring up one valid point. I have made this observation in the past. He is correct in that, a lot of times what you see of a karate ka in a sparring or competitive environment they look nothing how they train. I have been mystified by this as well. My favorite karate blogger has a number of posts on it. In this first link he talks about exactly what hanzou is saying with regards to fighters not looking like how they train. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/10/faux-boxing.html

This one also talks about. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/07/melee-karates-fighting-range.html

I think it is a valid question, why do a lot of karate fighters end up looking like piss poor bouncy kickboxers?

 

[Dinkydoo]

Nah, its a school in the states. In fact, its pretty close to my neck of the woods. The instructor claims to be teaching traditional mantis, and if you follow his videos he shows a couple of traditional mantis movements.

I might give them a watch later.

Well according to the publisher of the video, some of these students are intermediate. Unfortunately, it falls into the same pattern I've seen before; tradtional martial arts looking nothing like their kata or demonstration forms when actually fighting/sparring.

Could you explain why this is the case? Why do people trained in a very distinctive looking style like Mantis end up fighting like sloppy kickboxers?.

Most of this has already been covered in this thread; gloves and rule-sets definitely play a part but that's not really the issue with that video - it was sloppy, unskilled sparring.

It's certainly not a problem that is unique to any system or collection of systems and in my opinion, it comes down to one thing, the people sparring don't have enough skill - or confidence in their skill - to fight in a non-scripted environment like the way they are training to.

The club I used to train with were not traditional Kung Fu - although they were marketed as such and our training methods were, but the style wasn't - and even during our sparring the instructor wouldn't tolerate us fighting like that. There has to be some control and skill on show and the students need to at least try to fight like how they have been taught. It is easy to fall back on primitive, less complicated movements whilst under stress - such as swinging and grabbing at your opponent aimlessly. Good training methods, good teaching from a skilled instructor and a willing student are all required components when you are trying to fight in a new way. I would hope that after the session these students were told what they needed to improve on and avoid doing next time - if they weren't then that's just encouraging crappy sparring.

Im still waiting to see Rome.

I've seen a few really good Kung Fu guys use their skills in a non-scripted environment, these people generally tend to be folks that would rather not have themselves filmed and put online.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
The thread, despite some major train wreck aspects, has remained open because it's generally stayed civil. Ok, it's resembled two rams butting heads and neither yielding, but civil. The civility is degenerating, and I strongly suggest it return before infractions are handed out. This is a final warning.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion civil. Discuss the issues, not the poster.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator

 

[K-man]

Hanzou does bring up one valid point. I have made this observation in the past. He is correct in that, a lot of times what you see of a karate ka in a sparring or competitive environment they look nothing how they train. I have been mystified by this as well. My favorite karate blogger has a number of posts on it. In this first link he talks about exactly what hanzou is saying with regards to fighters not looking like how they train. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/10/faux-boxing.html

This one also talks about. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/07/melee-karates-fighting-range.html

I think it is a valid question, why do a lot of karate fighters end up looking like piss poor bouncy kickboxers?

Mainly because we aren't kick boxers and you shouldn't try to be what you are not.

I agree with your sentiments and I agree with most of what Dan is saying. One thing he points out, and I agree with totally is that karate was never meant to be used this way. I could never understand, when I was learning Japanese Goju, why they kept telling us to bounce around. I believe now that it all came from Gogen Yamaguchi developing a sporting system but in an environment where he did not come from a sport background. (Mas Oyama trained with Yamaguchi before he developed Kyokushin, another competitive style.) The other aspect that Dan discusses is 'melee' range, another thing I strongly agree with. In Okinawa we were told, "you enter and engage and you do not disengage until it is over". In the clips Dan included the guys were fighting at melee range but they still were not controlling the fight with traditional techniques. This is where the Jundokan method of training might be closer to the original than Dan's interpretation as passed down by Morio Higaonna. For example, the 'carriage' hand. Why do you pull the hand back to the side in virtually every technique? When these guys fight at distance it has no relevance, but at close quarters it is gripping and holding your opponent which not only restricts his movement but gives you the opportunity to deliver a strike for which your opponent can only block using one hand. We call this a predictive response and despite Hanzou's mistaken belief that it is choreographed, it is actually a brilliant way to control the fight. Basically your opponent has two options. First is to not block, because at full speed in that environment (range) there is not enough time, and if the strike is to a vital area the fight is over, as all traditional karate was targeted at vital areas (Kyusho). The second option is that your opponent gets lucky and throws his arm up to defend, predictive response. Unfortunately for him, the kata you have drilled provides you with an 'instinctive' response to the gift he has offered and you do what ever comes next, usually a joint break or follow up strike.

One thing that Dan discussed was the three step sparring video. To my mind that is more attuned to the style of karate that went into the schools than fighting in a pub brawl. Once again, although that might be considered 'traditional' training, I don't do any of that. At the Jundokan they do train it but in a way that conditions the arms. At the end of our first training session we all had very bruised arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a lot of times what you see of a karate ka in a sparring or competitive environment they look nothing how they train.

This is not only the Karate issue. This is the issue for all form base MA s well. In the form, you punch from your waist. In sparring, you punch from your on guard position. If you want your training to be the same as your sparring, you have 2 options:

1. Change your form to match the sparring.
2. Leave the traditional forms along. Create a new set of forms that comes from sparring reality.

Here is a throwing art example. It's easy to see that the solo training (form) = partner training without partner.

partner train:

solo train:

When you spend your time like this in solo training (if you don't have training partner 24/7 at home), you can apply it direct in sparring without modification. The striking art should be able to borrow this training model as well.

 

[Hanzou]

This is not only the Karate issue. This is the issue for all form base MA s well. In the form, you punch from your waist. In sparring, you punch from your on guard position. If you want your training to be the same as your sparring, you have 2 options:

1. Change your form to match the sparring.
2. Leave the traditional forms along. Create a new set of forms that comes from sparring reality.

Here is a throwing art example. It's easy to see that the solo training (form) = partner training without partner.

partner train:

solo train:

When you spend your time like this in solo training (if you don't have training partner 24/7 at home), you can apply it direct in sparring without modification. The striking art should be able to borrow this training model as well.

Thats actually a very nice takedown. I think I'll incorporate it into my stand up.

As for your post I agree, and I think because of this situation among the TMA styles, arts likes Muay Thai and Boxing have an advantage over traditional striking arts.

 

[Hanzou]

I might give them a watch later.

Please do. I would like your input on this guys methods. He makes quite a few "interesting" claims.

Most of this has already been covered in this thread; gloves and rule-sets definitely play a part but that's not really the issue with that video - it was sloppy, unskilled sparring.

It's certainly not a problem that is unique to any system or collection of systems and in my opinion, it comes down to one thing, the people sparring don't have enough skill - or confidence in their skill - to fight in a non-scripted environment like the way they are training to.

The club I used to train with were not traditional Kung Fu - although they were marketed as such and our training methods were, but the style wasn't - and even during our sparring the instructor wouldn't tolerate us fighting like that. There has to be some control and skill on show and the students need to at least try to fight like how they have been taught. It is easy to fall back on primitive, less complicated movements whilst under stress - such as swinging and grabbing at your opponent aimlessly. Good training methods, good teaching from a skilled instructor and a willing student are all required components when you are trying to fight in a new way. I would hope that after the session these students were told what they needed to improve on and avoid doing next time - if they weren't then that's just encouraging crappy sparring.

Like I said, check out that guys vids and give me your opinion. I was pretty shocked by the overall quality, but then a lot of this Kung Fu stuff is new to me outside of a few sparring sessions.

I've seen a few really good Kung Fu guys use their skills in a non-scripted environment, these people generally tend to be folks that would rather not have themselves filmed and put online.

That attitude really bothers me. If the crappy guys are advertising everywhere, and the "real deal" is hard to find, you're just setting up people to be taken for a ride by the frauds.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Please do. I would like your input on this guys methods. He makes quite a few "interesting" claims.

Any video in particular?

I watched an upload of someone's attempt at the first set form taught in our lineage - it is taught later in other branches of Seven Star but its an absolutely fundamental set, so it really has to be correct.

This:

http://youtu.be/faP6b534THg

Is supposed to look like the first line if this:

http://youtu.be/cuEfYk9xWN4

There's basically no resemblance. No idea whether this was the person sparring but its the same YT account and I would suggest that someone with technique that (I would say bad, but its more than that) wrong should be spending time on solo practice rather than sparring at that skill level.

I'll comment on other videos if you want but I think that we'll be wasting our time. You'll need to tell me which one though as I'm not going to sift through them.

Like I said, check out that guys vids and give me your opinion. I was pretty shocked by the overall quality, but then a lot of this Kung Fu stuff is new to me outside of a few sparring sessions.

The one video I've watched was way worse than the other Mantis/Taiji/BJJ club. Can't comment on the others.

That attitude really bothers me. If the crappy guys are advertising everywhere, and the "real deal" is hard to find, you're just setting up people to be taken for a ride by the frauds.

The blame for teaching crappy martial arts lies only at the door of those teaching crappy martial arts. There does seem to be a hell of a lot of these guys around though, which really doesn't help Kung Fu's reputation in some circles.

It's difficult enough for the 'good guys' to find suitable people to inherit well taught traditional systems, without spending time actively 'outing' those who are not teaching the real deal.

 

[Hanzou]

Any video in particular?

I watched an upload of someone's attempt at the first set form taught in our lineage - it is taught later in other branches of Seven Star but its an absolutely fundamental set, so it really has to be correct.

This:

http://youtu.be/faP6b534THg

Is supposed to look like the first line if this:

http://youtu.be/cuEfYk9xWN4

There's basically no resemblance. No idea whether this was the person sparring but its the same YT account and I would suggest that someone with technique that (I would say bad, but its more than that) wrong should be spending time on solo practice rather than sparring at that skill level.

That's the head instructor at that school......

I'll comment on other videos if you want but I think that we'll be wasting our time. You'll need to tell me which one though as I'm not going to sift through them.

That's alright. I just wanted your opinion on this guy, because I was discussing martial arts with him on another forum, and he showed me that video of his students sparring. I admittedly don't know much about Mantis, but I know that sparring like that isn't proper instruction. Based on your comparison above, I think I know what the problem is.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Many years ago, people believed that TMA stylists could rival boxers and wrestlers. That was until TMA artists stepped forward and got constantly whooped upon by boxers and wrestlers, and later kickboxers, Judo/Bjj stylists, and MMA exponents.

Yet in the early days of the UFC when there were little or no rules pure boxers did very poorly, in the 1st 4 UFC's they did not win a single fight. In any case the competitors in those events made up only an insignificant proportion of all the TMA's out there and only represented those that chose to compete and thus proves nothing.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hanzou does bring up one valid point. I have made this observation in the past. He is correct in that, a lot of times what you see of a karate ka in a sparring or competitive environment they look nothing how they train. I have been mystified by this as well. My favorite karate blogger has a number of posts on it. In this first link he talks about exactly what hanzou is saying with regards to fighters not looking like how they train. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/10/faux-boxing.html

This one also talks about. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/07/melee-karates-fighting-range.html

I think it is a valid question, why do a lot of karate fighters end up looking like piss poor bouncy kickboxers?

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I wouldn't consider TKD to be traditional martial arts.

Mine is.

Both tend to be very competition oriented.

Mine is not - not even slightly.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I guess you weren't paying attention. Those guys you posted are all professional kick boxers. I'm asking for evidence of someone using traditional MA that doesn't resemble kickboxing while fighting.

Here's one:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXcuwcwj78M

 

[Hanzou]

Yet in the early days of the UFC when there were little or no rules pure boxers did very poorly, in the 1st 4 UFC's they did not win a single fight. In any case the competitors in those events made up only an insignificant proportion of all the TMA's out there and only represented those that chose to compete and thus proves nothing.

Yeah, but they at least stepped up. If the real deal doesn't want to post videos of themselves fighting, or are willing to compete in any tournaments, then we have to assume that the real deal is what we've been seeing all along. It's like Bigfoot; If it exists, we would have found it by now.

 

[Hanzou]

Mine is.

Mine is not - not even slightly.

Wasn't TKD created in the 1950s?