MMA vs TMA

[MJS]

No, but it makes every Jjj school suspect, because like many TMA styles its legitimacy is wrapped up in dusty old history books, and not on its effectiveness. Unlike Judo, Bjj, Boxing, and other styles that are pressure tested by every wanna-be MMA guy or meathead that pops in, TMA instructors can sit back and peddle bullcrap upon their students for decades and no one will question it.

And this is why I talk about people doing their homework. IMHO, anyone who would make a large purchase, without investigating what they're buying, is a fool, and deserves what they get! Would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a home, without looking at it? How about a car without a test drive? I'm the first to say there is a lot of crap out there, but there are also a lot of what *I* like to call the 'rare gems'. Those things do exist, but you have to look hard to find them. There are a few JJJ schools around my area, as well as in neighboring MA, that are good quality.

I've said it throughout my posts. And no, most TMAs don't have alive training. Simply the nature of the beast. That's why their demonstrations don't match their sparring.

Keep in mind, the majority of demos that you'll see, are just that...demos...usually which are pre set. Of course, as I've said, just because a clip of an art, doesn't show something on youtube, does not mean that it doesn't exist.

 

[MJS]

There are a great many boxing clubs I have never heard off before - must be all frauds then?



1) There is no such thing as 'full contact' except for actual fighting.
2) Full contact, semi-contact, non-contact, none of these equal aliveness.
3) Although good, they are hardly beating the hell out of each other, they are not punching to the head or trying to incapacitate or knock out their training partners (if they were then there would not be adults sparring children).
4) It would be extremely difficult for BJJ to do anything that did not have full contact since combat cuddling requires actual touching. You cannot mount or choke someone without touching them
5) Full contact in grappling and full contact in striking have vastly different meanings.
6) How do you define 'pulling punches'? To me it suggests that you do not contact by not finishing your punch.
7) YOU HAVE STILL TO POST A VIDEO OF YOUR TRAINING TO SHOW EVERYONE YOUR SUPERIOR TRAINING METHODS AS YOU SEE THEM.

Good points!! At my Kyokushin dojo, we designate semi contact sparring and full contact sparring, as either with gear or without. Of course, the contact itself is hard....harder than I ever did in any of the Kenpo schools that I was a part of. In the 2 yrs that I've been a part of that dojo, aside from a tournament, I've never seen anyone intentionally try to KO someone. The only KO that I've seen was during a BB test. As far as head shots go...no punches, but kicks are allowed. Actually, that KO on that test was from a kick. Recently, some tournaments in Japan, have begun doing face punches. MMA type gloves are worn. As far as the rest of your post...can't disagree with anything!

 

[MJS]

Yes, we go full contact until someone submits. There's no reason to continue to go full blast if someone submits to you.

While I'm an advocate of contact, I personally do not feel it's something that should be done in every session. To clarify...sometimes when I'm working with one of my training partners outside of class, we might isolate something specific, and drill it. We might then drill it at a faster pace, maybe 1/2 speed/contact. Going full out every single time is eventually going to take a serious toll on the body.

 

[MJS]

But not applying your techniques. Application is the most important part. You can have the prettiest, most technical Kata in the world. However, it doesn't mean a whole hill of beans if you've never actually hit anything before, learned how to time your attacks, or went against an opponent who wants to hurt you.

Interestingly enough, during some of the Kenpo classes I'd teach, I'd take a technique, say against a rt. hand lapel grab. I'd have the student do the tech as usual. Then, I'd slowly start to have the attacker, do something to throw off the defender, ie: add in a left punch, add in their left hand to the grab, push/pull the defender, etc. We were not sparring, but doing what you're calling a line drill. However, it still created a more realistic scenario, minus the sparring. Sorry, but you can still train in an effective manner without getting into the ring.

 

[MJS]

You are trolling. You peddle the same rubbish post after post and are called on it post after post. Perhaps if you went to a reputable school somewhere and did some real training you might pick up a little knowledge that you could apply to your posts.

Regarding this:

I'll back the Asian guy! On the street the boxer won't have time to put on his gloves.
Have you seen the callouses on the Okinawan guys hands from makiwara training?

I have! My teacher is Japanese. He's done quite a bit of conditioning on his hands and shins. The man is fast and hits like a brick!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Wasn't TKD created in the 1950s?

So?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wasn't TKD created in the 1950s?

TKD did not get heavy into competition until 1988, I trained pre Olympic TKD and it is very different than post Olympic TKD

But there was some competition training beginning around 1978....I trained before that and during that but the classes were separate for sparing and some of the drills...there was a sport class and a traditional class... I tried both and hated the sport

 

[Hanzou]

Regarding this:

I'll back the Asian guy! On the street the boxer won't have time to put on his gloves.
Have you seen the callouses on the Okinawan guys hands from makiwara training?

I have! My teacher is Japanese. He's done quite a bit of conditioning on his hands and shins. The man is fast and hits like a brick!

Then why arent they professional fighters? Why did they never use their martial art skills to make millions of dollars for themselves? A small Okinawan karate guy taking down a pro or semi-pro boxer would be a huge money-maker for all parties involved.

The problem with stories like these is that they're simply not believable. Those super Okinawan punchers have never appeared, and they're never going to appear because they don't exist.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Then why arent they professional fighters? Why did they never use their martial art skills to make millions of dollars for themselves? A small Okinawan karate guy taking down a pro or semi-pro boxer would be a huge money-maker for all parties involved.

The problem with stories like these is that they're simply not believable. Those super Okinawan punchers have never appeared, and they're never going to appear because they don't exist.

1) Not every martial artist wants to make a living hurting people.
2) Not every martial artist wants to turn their art into a sport.
3) Not every martial artist wants to put their bodies through injury every day (how many 60 year old kickboxers do you know that still compete full contact?)
4) Some martial artists have jobs and careers that do not include martial arts or fighting.
5) Many martial artists care more about their art than they do about money (that's what jobs and careers are for).

 

[RTKDCMB]

If the real deal doesn't want to post videos of themselves fighting, or are willing to compete in any tournaments, then we have to assume that the real deal is what we've been seeing all along.

Yet you have still not put a video up of yourself so you must not be the real deal.

 

[MJS]

Then why arent they professional fighters? Why did they never use their martial art skills to make millions of dollars for themselves? A small Okinawan karate guy taking down a pro or semi-pro boxer would be a huge money-maker for all parties involved.

The problem with stories like these is that they're simply not believable. Those super Okinawan punchers have never appeared, and they're never going to appear because they don't exist.

My teacher fought many times in full contact fights while in Japan. Why don't these people enter MMA and make millions? Don't know. You know though, not everyone in the world has a desire to enter tournaments or be the next MMA fighter. Furthermore, the part that I quote from K-man was to simply comment on what he said about the conditioning.

Personally, as I've said before, I could really give a **** less what anyone thinks about the arts I train. I know what I can and can't do, I know the folks that I train with, and what they do and have done and I have no reason to doubt them. I also have no reason to doubt my Kyokushin teacher. His reputation speaks for itself.

Out of curiosity, are you interested in being a pro fighter?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hanzou does bring up one valid point. I have made this observation in the past. He is correct in that, a lot of times what you see of a karate ka in a sparring or competitive environment they look nothing how they train. I have been mystified by this as well. My favorite karate blogger has a number of posts on it. In this first link he talks about exactly what hanzou is saying with regards to fighters not looking like how they train. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/10/faux-boxing.html

This one also talks about. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/07/melee-karates-fighting-range.html

I think it is a valid question, why do a lot of karate fighters end up looking like piss poor bouncy kickboxers?

I read some of his other blogs as well, they are all good.

 

[K-man]

Then why arent they professional fighters? Why did they never use their martial art skills to make millions of dollars for themselves? A small Okinawan karate guy taking down a pro or semi-pro boxer would be a huge money-maker for all parties involved.

The problem with stories like these is that they're simply not believable. Those super Okinawan punchers have never appeared, and they're never going to appear because they don't exist.

:BSmeter:

 

[K-man]

Yeah, but they at least stepped up. If the real deal doesn't want to post videos of themselves fighting, or are willing to compete in any tournaments, then we have to assume that the real deal is what we've been seeing all along. It's like Bigfoot; If it exists, we would have found it by now.

:BSmeter:

 

[Xue Sheng]

look to Masutatsu Oyama and his students

 

[jrrrr]

Some people are fighters and some are martial artists.
Fighters..well...fight. Wrestlers don't train to know wrestling. They train to compete in wrestling matches. Amateur boxers train to fight other boxers in the ring, not to "know the art of boxing."
Martial artists train to know how to fight using their particular style.
Most MMA guys are fighters. They will train with multiple methodologies to win a fight within the rules irregardless of styles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some people are fighters and some are martial artists.
Fighters..well...fight. Wrestlers don't train to know wrestling. They train to compete in wrestling matches. Amateur boxers train to fight other boxers in the ring, not to "know the art of boxing."
Martial artists train to know how to fight using their particular style.
Most MMA guys are fighters. They will train with multiple methodologies to win a fight within the rules irregardless of styles.

This is so true. If one ever has chance to cross train the grappling art, his view about MA will be different for the rest of his life. I have always believed that the striking art can borrow the grappling art training model, no forms but drills and those drills are exactly what you will use in fighting.

 

[James Kovacich]

This is so true. If one ever has chance to cross train the grappling art, his view about MA will be different for the rest of his life. I have always believed that the striking art can borrow the grappling art training model, no forms but drills and those drills are exactly what you will use in fighting.

And some still don't get it!

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Hanzou]

1) Not every martial artist wants to make a living hurting people.
2) Not every martial artist wants to turn their art into a sport.
3) Not every martial artist wants to put their bodies through injury every day (how many 60 year old kickboxers do you know that still compete full contact?)
4) Some martial artists have jobs and careers that do not include martial arts or fighting.
5) Many martial artists care more about their art than they do about money (that's what jobs and careers are for).

Of course. However, my point is that its odd that out of these supposedly great Okinawan punchers, none have ever emerged and competed (calloused hands and all) against professional fighters.

 

[Hanzou]

My teacher fought many times in full contact fights while in Japan. Why don't these people enter MMA and make millions? Don't know. You know though, not everyone in the world has a desire to enter tournaments or be the next MMA fighter. Furthermore, the part that I quote from K-man was to simply comment on what he said about the conditioning.

Personally, as I've said before, I could really give a **** less what anyone thinks about the arts I train. I know what I can and can't do, I know the folks that I train with, and what they do and have done and I have no reason to doubt them. I also have no reason to doubt my Kyokushin teacher. His reputation speaks for itself.

I wasn't talking about your Kyokushin teacher. Nor was I slamming Kyokushin. In fact, I rather enjoy Kyokushin as a Karate style. Your art is part of the solution because it does almost everything right.

Out of curiosity, are you interested in being a pro fighter?

Nope. I just want to enjoy the art of Bjj.