MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

This is so true. If one ever has chance to cross train the grappling art, his view about MA will be different for the rest of his life. I have always believed that the striking art can borrow the grappling art training model, no forms but drills and those drills are exactly what you will use in fighting.

Agreed.

 

[K-man]

Of course. However, my point is that its odd that out of these supposedly great Okinawan punchers, none have ever emerged and competed (calloused hands and all) against professional fighters.

:trollsign:

 

[Hanzou]

Any opinions on this article?

Going to the Ground:Lessons from Law Enforcement

The LAPD study does not show that “90% of fights go to the ground.” Instead, the LAPD study shows that 95% of altercations took on one of five familiar patterns (with which any street cop will be intimately familiar). It also shows that of that 95%, 62% ended up with both the officer and the suspect grappling on the ground.

Obviously, being professionally charged with restraining someone versus being primarily focused on escaping an attack will change the dynamic of a confrontation after the initial engagement. This is why I believe police in an arrest situation are more likely than a citizen in a self-defense situation to stay on the ground during a physical encounter.


Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that more than half the officers surveyed by Calibre Press reported that suspects had attempted to take them down, and that the suspects accomplished this 60% of the time. Of that number, the overwhelming majority stayed on the ground grappling with the officer (77%). When considering these patterns of assault, they are of the same nature as criminal assaults on citizens. In other words, the mechanics of an assault (versus the mechanics of arrest) do not change simply because one of the people involved is a police officer. [EN4]


To conclude, one can quibble with the exact percentages, but being on the ground happens frequently during serious altercations. Could a person’s being taken down and not having an effective means to deal with the situation increase odds of death or serious injury, either to him/herself or to the assailant? My personal view is that this is the case.

 

[SENC-33]

Street altercations, law enforcement altercations and sport competition offer differing variables when it comes to ground fighting. It is a natural instinct to want to take an opponent to the ground as we tumble, roll around and wrestle from the time we are born. I worked the door for years when I was younger and the ground is the last place you want to be in a "street altercation" period unless you have backup to control "others". With that being said I do train groundwork but I take the approach that you work to get back on your feet as quickly as possible. If you have to control the situation from the ground do so from on top not your backside and I attempt to control the neck with my shin or a side choke.

 

[Xue Sheng]

God this topic is so over done here

The ONLY difference between sport and non-spot MA is this

One trains to fight a person that they expect to see sometime later in a rematch the other trains to fight a person they hope to never see again.

The End


Note:
It has been my experience here and in the real world those that seem to be INCREDIBLY against Traditional arts and yelling the loudest about the superiority of Sports based arts (or fighting in the ring) tend to be arm chair marital artists. As for the real MMA people I have talked to they seem to be very interested in ANYTHING that will help them win and I have even talked to some that train Qigong.

 

[Hanzou]

Street altercations, law enforcement altercations and sport competition offer differing variables when it comes to ground fighting. It is a natural instinct to want to take an opponent to the ground as we tumble, roll around and wrestle from the time we are born. I worked the door for years when I was younger and the ground is the last place you want to be in a "street altercation" period unless you have backup to control "others". With that being said I do train groundwork but I take the approach that you work to get back on your feet as quickly as possible. If you have to control the situation from the ground do so from on top not your backside and I attempt to control the neck with my shin or a side choke.

The common misconception is that Bjj stylists seek to pull guard when going to the ground. That's not the case. When a Bjj stylist takes you to the ground, their goal is to be in the mounted position to have maximum control, and to be able to stand up quickly. We train a lot in guard because it is potentially the most vulnerable position to be in, so if you do wind up on your back (which can happen), you have plenty of tools to get out of that position and regain a dominant position, or to finish a fight from that position.

God this topic is so over done here

The ONLY difference between sport and non-spot MA is this

One trains to fight a person that they expect to see sometime later in a rematch the other trains to fight a person they hope to never see again.

The End

And who is better prepared for that scenario? An athlete, or a chubby person who does Kung Fu twice a week?

 

[SENC-33]

The common misconception is that Bjj stylists seek to pull guard when going to the ground. That's not the case. When a Bjj stylist takes you to the ground, their goal is to be in the mounted position to have maximum control, and to be able to stand up quickly. We train a lot in guard because it is potentially the most vulnerable position to be in, so if you do wind up on your back (which can happen), you have plenty of tools to get out of that position and regain a dominant position, or to finish a fight from that position.

I don't think there is any misconception about BJJ when it comes to a realistic situation. Remaining on the ground "if" there is any potential of multiple attackers around is plain crazy no matter the style. I have seen too many heads kicked in

 

[Hanzou]

I don't think there is any misconception about BJJ when it comes to a realistic situation. Remaining on the ground "if" there is any potential of multiple attackers around is plain crazy no matter the style. I have seen too many heads kicked in

I don't think anyone is advocating remaining on the ground if the situation doesn't deem it necessary. People are advocating that you know what to do if you end up on the ground, or are knocked to the ground. For example, there's dozens if not hundreds of sweeps from the guard position. So if someone winds up on top of you in mounted position, you can reverse the position and put yourself in mounted, and them in guard. Furthermore, we are trained on how to maintain the mounted position once we have it. Once in mounted position, you can pound the guys face, go for break, or a choke, or just get up and kick him in the face and walk/run away.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And who is better prepared for that scenario? An athlete, or a chubby person who does Kung Fu twice a week?

You really have a bug up your butt about Praying Mantis Kung Fu don't you? (Pun intended)

 

[Hanzou]

You really have a bug up your butt about Praying Mantis Kung Fu don't you? (Pun intended)

No, I just think those videos are pretty funny (and kinda creepy).

 

[SENC-33]

I don't think anyone is advocating remaining on the ground if the situation doesn't deem it necessary. People are advocating that you know what to do if you end up on the ground, or are knocked to the ground. For example, there's dozens if not hundreds of sweeps from the guard position. So if someone winds up on top of you in mounted position, you can reverse the position and put yourself in mounted, and them in guard. Furthermore, we are trained on how to maintain the mounted position once we have it. Once in mounted position, you can pound the guys face, go for break, or a choke, or just get up and kick him in the face and walk/run away.

Not arguing that at all but when I ground train I put more focus on getting up. Now in a situation where I may be unfortunate enough to be taken to the ground by a seasoned grappler said person had best be prepared to be hit in the throat or have his eyes gouged.

 

[Hanzou]

Not arguing that at all but when I ground train I put more focus on getting up. Now in a situation where I may be unfortunate enough to be taken to the ground by a seasoned grappler said person had best be prepared to be hit in the throat or have his eyes gouged.

Yeah, eye gouges and throat shots aren't going to help you against a seasoned grappler who has a dominant position. You start trying to gouge his eyes, he'll start banging your head into the concrete.

 

[SENC-33]

Yeah, eye gouges and throat shots aren't going to help you against a seasoned grappler who has a dominant position. You start trying to gouge his eyes, he'll start banging your head into the concrete.

LOL....Partner I have been at this game a looooooong time. Sooner or later you have to get close enough to me to do any real damage and it doesn't take much of a throat strike to injure you severely. If you can reach my face or head with a powerful enough strike I can reach your throat.

 

[SENC-33]

I will say this based on my own experience. I can escape most grapplers that train with me within seconds. Reason being I don't train to stay on the ground grappling or fighting with them. I train to escape and get back to my feet.......

 

[Hanzou]

LOL....Partner I have been at this game a looooooong time. Sooner or later you have to get close enough to me to do any real damage and it doesn't take much of a throat strike to injure you severely. If you can reach my face or head with a powerful enough strike I can reach your throat.

I thought the scenario was you already been taken to the ground by a "seasoned grappler"?

What amazes me about arguments such as yours is the notion that it takes a great deal of training to bite someone, dig in nails, pull hair, or poke in the eye. I was doing that in grade school. If a seasoned grappler has taken you to the ground and has a dominant position, who do you think is more likely to be able to do "dirty stuff"? Its like saying "if I get taken to the ground, I'm going to punch him in the face!" Who do you think is more capable of punching who in the face?

Furthermore, going the dirty route opens up a path towards escalation which you're going to lose because again, the person has a dominant position.

Wouldn't it just be easier (and more logical) to simply learn ground fighting?

 

[SENC-33]

I thought the scenario was you already been taken to the ground by a "seasoned grappler"?

What amazes me about arguments such as yours is the notion that it takes a great deal of training to bite someone, dig in nails, pull hair, or poke in the eye. I was doing that in grade school. If a seasoned grappler has taken you to the ground and has a dominant position, who do you think is more likely to be able to do "dirty stuff"? Its like saying "if I get taken to the ground, I'm going to punch him in the face!" Who do you think is more capable of punching who in the face?

Furthermore, going the dirty route opens up a path towards escalation which you're going to lose because again, the person has a dominant position.

Wouldn't it just be easier (and more logical) to simply learn ground fighting?

You think being on top of me is really a dominant position? In a real life situation where there is no ring, a ref or points and you do happen to get me to the ground and on top of me you will likely go into ground and pound mode. Yes my movement will be somewhat limited but I CAN get a throat strike no problem (we both can). Where you choose to strike is up to you obviously but I will cover long enough to get the small window I need.

 

[SENC-33]

To sum it up and for the sake of not wanting to get into a pissing contest.....Ground fighting defense is secondary to me. YES you should train for it but your are better off focusing on how best to get up and back on your feet as quickly as possible. I would treat any situation of being taken to the ground as a dangerous one with the potential of mutiple attackers being a real possibility. That isn't a situation you desire to be in.

 

[Hanzou]

You think being on top of me is really a dominant position? In a real life situation where there is no ring, a ref or points and you do happen to get me to the ground and on top of me you will likely go into ground and pound mode. Yes my movement will be somewhat limited but I CAN get a throat strike no problem (we both can). Where you choose to strike is up to you obviously but I will cover long enough to get the small window I need.

YES a seasoned grappler on top of you IS a dominant position. Honestly, even someone who doesn't know what they're doing in that position is in a dominant position. Additionally (depending on where they trained) if you go for a throat jab from guard, that leads to your arm getting grabbed and possibly broken, or locked up and you continued to get pummeled.

However, the very idea of trying to punch someone's throat in guard is ridiculous, especially when someone is raining blows down upon you, and your head is on the concrete.

This isn't a pissing contest. This is what is reality and what is fantasy.

 

[Steve]

LOL....Partner I have been at this game a looooooong time. Sooner or later you have to get close enough to me to do any real damage and it doesn't take much of a throat strike to injure you severely. If you can reach my face or head with a powerful enough strike I can reach your throat.

Hold on, guys. I want to add my disclaimer here: I have no personal issues with anyone doing anything that they enjoy.

But, let's be realistic here. If you are not a "seasoned grappler" as you put it, and someone who is competent has you in a high mount, you will not be able to reach their face or throat. In fact, you will likely not be able to move your arms. Low mount is when I have you mounted, and my hips are closer to your hips. In this position, I can grapevine your legs for control, making it hard for you to breathe. But, if I'm punching you or working to submit you, I will have you in high mount. In this position, I'm sitting directly on your chest, with my thighs high under your shoulders. It is extremely difficult to breathe, and motion for your arms is very limited. If you extend your arms in this position for any reason, you are asking to have it broken in some way.

Regarding escaping grapplers, depends on who you train with, I guess, and under what rules you are "sparring."

My only point here is to suggest that we all stick with what we know. I know diddley about kung fu, but don't tell me that you would be able to gouge my eyes while under mount. That's completely unrealistic.

 

[Steve]

To sum it up and for the sake of not wanting to get into a pissing contest.....Ground fighting defense is secondary to me. YES you should train for it but your are better off focusing on how best to get up and back on your feet as quickly as possible. I would treat any situation of being taken to the ground as a dangerous one with the potential of mutiple attackers being a real possibility. That isn't a situation you desire to be in.

No. Sorry. This is wrong. You will not be able to reach my throat under high mount, and further, if you try I'd likely be able to break your wrist without compromising my position at all. In fact, it is very likely that without a lot of experience in that position, you will panic when you realize how difficult it is to breathe and how limited your movement really is. I see it all the time. You really don't know how sucky that position is until you've got someone competent doing it to you.

To help show what I mean, this is high mount:


This is low mount: