Still? This'll be fun...
Again, that's a matter of opinion. I believe that making Jujutsu safer, applying modern principles, spreading martial arts to children, etc. is a modernization of the art. Afterall, Judo emerged during the period of Japanese modernization. It wouldn't have survived and flourished if it was "just another Jujutsu school".
Right. What "modern principles"? If you're talking about things like sparring, you do realize that I've already pointed out the usage of that as a training tool for centuries, yeah? Training on mats? Again, I've already shown that to be quite traditional. Looking for marketing opportunities? So old as to be railed against by Musashi in the Gorin no Sho. Targeting your teaching at an educational position? Heard of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu? Ono-ha Itto Ryu? Shinto Muso Ryu? Any of a hundred other traditional arts? Do you know what an Otome Ryu was/is? Applying what you refer to as "scientific principles"? Again, common, in a number of senses of the term (we'll come back to this). Teaching children? Seriously old-school. And just because Judo is a modern system doesn't mean that it was "modernized", it just means that it's a modern system. It's survival and flourishment was largely due to (one more time, now) Kano's lobbying of the education department... nothing to do with modernizing anything in the art itself. And, when all's said and done, it really is "just another jujutsu school".... it's just an incredibly successful one.
You really don't know what you're dealing with here.
The source of that quote was this; Kanō, Jigorō (2006) [2005]. "A BRIEF HISTORY OF JUJUTSU". In Murata, Naoki. Mind over muscle: writings from the founder of Judo.
I guess you now know more about Jujutsu than Jigoro Kano. :lol2:
You know, I love context... it puts things in position so that their meaning and importance can be easily gleaned.... the only part of Kano's writings that was quoted there was "Jujutsu developed among the samurai of fuedal Japan as a method for defeating an armed and armoured opponent in which one uses no weapon, or only a short weapon". The rest of your quote was not part of the reference. And the point was not the quote.... it was the entire wiki article as a whole. But, for the record, that quote (just the Kano one) oversimplifies things to the point of removing accuracy as a statement. Even Kano would agree with that, I feel.
Oh, but, for the record, what do you think of sword defences? Modern? Part of a modernization? Something that was necessary after the Haitorei Edict of 1876 that banned the wearing of swords?
Do you know the Kime no Kata?
What do you think of the Koshiki no Kata? Modern?
These are demonstrations of kata from Judo. But, of course, they can't be Judo, as this isn't what randori looks like, right?
Oh, and the point is that I know a hell of a lot more about Jujutsu than you do.
You do understand that the scientific method in Japan c. 1500-1599 is far different and less accurate than the scientific method applied in Japan during the Meiji restoration when the Japanese had access to western technology. I mean, Issac Newton, the father of modern physics wasn't even born until 1642.
Wow, that's a wonderfully narrow view of things... "Scientific" only means modern, Western science? Really? I suppose music only means current American bands, too... and art is only Europeans.... post Warhol, of course...
Let's put it this way, the application of a scientific approach is pretty simple... it's a repeatable and testable hypothesis or theory. Which fits, well, pretty much all martial arts. If you're thinking only of a set of rules based on leverage, anatomy, vectors, physics etc, again, you're way off... as I mentioned, Kashima Shinryu has applied such things since the 16th Century. The study of anatomy was more advanced in the East than it was in the West at the time, you realize? Or do you think that there was no understanding of such things until Newton came around? If you do? Uh.... no. Wrong. Again. Still.
Aren't there more Judo dojos in Japan than Jujutsu dojos?
So what? Aren't there more McDonalds than 5 star restaurants? I mean, did you notice where I said that most schools only have one location, in many cases only one teacher at a time? The prevalence of one school doesn't mean the supplanting of the others, you realize.
Actually more than likely a Brazilian Jujutsu school. Bjj is very popular in Japan.
It's getting there... the UFC and similar have helped a lot there. But BJJ is BJJ, and Jujutsu is Jujutsu... the only way they get confused is when people don't know the difference.
Considering that most JJJ here in the states is more than likely a scam created by a guy who combined Judo with Karate in the hopes of roping in gullible people, "insure" works just fine in this context.
So you're in the states.... and you know how Japanese people will respond to a question on Jujutsu how? And, while there are a large number of gendai (modern), commonly Western systems using the name Jujutsu (or it's less accurate spellings), that doesn't make them "scams" unless they are claiming to be old Japanese traditions (I know a number who do, but it's hardly all of them). Personally, I feel your assessment is inaccurate, to say the least. You're attributing motives where there isn't any reason to suggest it, and you're trying to tar all schools with the same biased brush... it just doesn't work that way.
No, but it makes every Jjj school suspect, because like many TMA styles its legitimacy is wrapped up in dusty old history books, and not on its effectiveness. Unlike Judo, Bjj, Boxing, and other styles that are pressure tested by every wanna-be MMA guy or meathead that pops in, TMA instructors can sit back and peddle bullcrap upon their students for decades and no one will question it.
I don't know where you get your misinformation from but that is complete rubbish.
How is it complete rubbish?
Think about it; which is less likely to be a fraud, a boxing club, or some exotic sounding JJJ or Kung Fu school that you've never heard of before?
[/QUOTE]
It's complete rubbish as it's unsubstantiated drivel, with nothing other than bias and prejudice, combined with a deep lack of understanding, respect, knowledge, or education on the topic. Besides which, the idea that you've never heard of something doesn't mean it's not genuine... ever heard of Unkou Ryu? Shosho Ryu? Higo Shinkage Ryu? Owari-kan Ryu? Toda-ha Buko Ryu? Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi Ryu? Ogasawara Ryu? Kanshin Ryu? Kanemaki Ryu? Morishige Ryu? Yo Ryu? Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu? Masaki Ryu? Shingyoto Ryu? Maniwa-Nen Ryu? Shibukawa Ryu? Ryushin Shochi Ryu? Hozoin Ryu? I haven't even gotten to the rare ones yet....
K man, I hate to ask this, but if traditional Goju schools don't do free sparring and only pre arranged, how do they actually pressure test any of there skills? Pre arranged sparring of any flavor does not help the student deal with unexpected attacks, it only helps them read a script. My feeling is script reading does not equal martial arts fighting.
Now if im mistaken, and have misread what you posted please help me clear up the confusion.
Hi Kframe, considering your recent change in your martial system, perhaps I can help here as well.
The majority of what you do will be "scripted". However, it should be understood that that approach has been the norm (and continues to be the norm) for anyone wanting to deal with actual violence, not sparring. Why? Because it's much easier to teach methods of movement, tactics, principles, and so on that way. You learn to do things the way that the tried and tested system has learnt is the best. The problem is when people stop at the "do this slow so you can remember the whole sequence" level... that's the absolute beginning, and is actually something you do before you begin actually training the art. When these "scripted" actions (Japanese kata... paired) are done properly, it should be at an speed, power, intensity, and range/distance of an actual fight... and it should be done at a level where you can't "remember" what the next step is... you simply do it instinctively. That's the real aim of kata training here. And, when you get it wrong, you get hit. Hard. Properly. For real.
Tell you what, here's a few examples:
This is Araki Ryu, performed by Ellis Amdur. One aim of this Ryu, and it's training methods, are to constantly pressure test by taking the kata to the extreme... in this demonstration (which isn't that far removed from the intensity they train with), one of the weapons breaks... it goes "off script"... but the sequence continues. Without proper kata training, that doesn't happen.
Very old footage of Katori Shinto Ryu... which is here for the moment when one of the swordsmen doesn't quite get his bokken (wooden sword) up in time... and gets a nasty whack to the head! That's the reality of kata, when done well... you have to get it right... but you don't have time to remember.
You cannot mount or choke someone without touching them
