MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

Gee, I just all the Small Circle JJ guys, as well as all of the other JJ schools out there, are nothing but a joke then, huh? Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this post.

Small Circle comes from Judo and Danzen Ryu. Judo actually predates Danzen Ryu.

And yeah, a lot of them are a joke. Usually its some guy who combined Karate and Judo and call it Jj to make more money. Obviously there's some legit schools out there (if you can trace their lineage), but you're better off taking Judo. Less chance of being taken for a ride.

So, you assume that everything is done against compliant opponents? Ok. I always find it interesting how people use YT as the measuring stick as far as what's legit and what isn't.

Where did I say that? I simply said that some old Asian guy slapping around his students doesn't really prove the effectiveness of his art. It certainly looks cool, but then again, so does Steven Segal throwing his students around without touching them.

Show me that guy against a meathead who wants to pop his head off, and him using that great looking kata bunkai to subdue him. Then I'll be impressed.

 

[ballen0351]

Actually I would accept it, if you provided the evidence. There has to be a Goju guy somewhere that can fight like Taira.

Taira is a Goju guy? So he is a goju guy that fights like himself. I don't get the question

Why don't Goju guys fight like that kata, and if they don't then what's the problem? I don't think that's an unfair question to ask.

what kata? We dont fight like entire Kata because that would be a long fight but we use different parts of the kata in a fight.

 

[K-man]

Taira is a Goju guy? So he is a goju guy that fights like himself. I don't get the question

what kata? We dont fight like entire Kata because that would be a long fight but we use different parts of the kata in a fight.

Absolutely spot on with both points. All fighting with kata bunkai means is that if the first technique fails there is a follow up technique available. If you are not training kata bunkai you are not less effective, you just don't have that option. Very few schools teach like Taira.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

I was staying out of this one since my earlier comments, as to go through it, I'd want to pick up everything that is wrong and correct it... but I don't have the next 5 years to do so, and bluntly, I douby Hanzou here would hear any of it. But then you posted this.... you nearly had me in on your "ninjas" comments (dude, just no...), but this? Right....

Judo is Jujutsu. It's original name was Kano-ha Jujutsu... pretty simply "Kano's branch of Jujutsu". Judo is simply one form of Jujutsu, you realize. BJJ has it's roots in an early expression of Kano-ha Jujutsu, combined with a few other things, and given a focus on groundwork, but the origins are Jujutsu.

So, uh... no. Wrong.

More like semantics. I'm pretty sure that I said that Judo is a modernized form of Jujutsu. In fact you quoted me saying that.

No, Judo is a particular subset of Jujutsu, founded by Kano Jigoro, and developed/spread as much as an educational tool as a martial art. Kano's focus was on education as much as, if not more than, martial arts. Secondly, "Jujutsu... is an archaic battlefield art"? Uh, nope. Jujutsu is a generic term applied to a very wide range of Japanese unarmed or lightly armed systems of combat, which might be a stand-alone system, or part of a larger syllabus. If part of a larger syllabus, it might be a major, or minor section. But very, very little of it was "battlefield"... why? Well, because you'd use weapons on a battlefield... bows and arrows (later, firearms), spears and other polearms. Why would you go onto a battlefield and use unarmed methods in anything other than the worst of all possible situations? Then you get into the various forms Jujutsu can take... there were some systems that were very much for the Bushi (warrior class), which often involved small arms (and might be referred to as Kogusoku, referring to a "small set [of weapons]", or Koshi no Mawari, referring to "[the weapons found] around the waist", or might be Yawara, Yawaragei, Hade, Goho, Judo [here's a history lesson for you... that term was used in at least one system about 150 years before Kano...], Kumiuchi, Wajutsu, Torite, Te, and many more), or there were systems that were geared up as a form of "commoners yawara", which would not include weapons, but be almost exclusively unarmed. These systems developed in a large variety of circumstances over a very long period of time, with the earliest Jujutsu-centric system being founded in 1542 (Takenouchi Ryu - although there were unarmed aspects to some earlier systems, such as Kashima Shinryu and Katori Shinto Ryu), and continue to be developed today, some of which are new branches/variants of existing ones (such as Moto-ha Yoshin Ryu, a branch of Hontai Yoshin Ryu founded a few decades ago, or Hakko Ryu, a derivative of Daito Ryu from the 50's), others are purely new systems. And they are all Jujutsu.

So, uh... no. Wrong.

Again, semantics. I wouldn't consider Judo a subset of Jujutsu, nor would many other people. You clearly feel differently, but that's all a matter of opinion.

As for Jujutsu not being a battlefield art;

Jujutsu developed among the samurai of feudal Japan as a method for defeating an armed and armored opponent in which one uses no weapon, or only a short weapon.[SUP][3][/SUP] Because striking against an armored opponent proved ineffective, practitioners learned that the most efficient methods for neutralizing an enemy took the form of pins, joint locks, and throws. These techniques were developed around the principle of using an attacker's energy against him, rather than directly opposing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu#cite_note-Murata-3

Judo became favoured of the Police and the educational system due to Kano's very effective lobbying of the education department, and in part due to the performance of Kano's students in competitions. The "modernization" you refer to is more about Kano re-structuring the way he presented and taught his approach to Jujutsu, dominantly for the school system. In a number of ways, Kano simplified his approach from the Ryu (systems) he had been taught... but that's not really the same as "modernizing" the system. The structure, the mechanics, the uniform, the etiquette, the forms of attacks, the usage of Japanese kata, and so on, are all straight out of classical Jujutsu... in fact, the only real thing he "modernized" was the idea of mass-teaching, which lead to the development of the i-dan (kyu and dan) ranking, as well as the adoption of coloured belts. But, to be blunt, that form of ranking was adapted from the game "Go"... which is a very old game... so maybe not so much "modernizing". The fact that other modern systems have followed suit, particularly in the ranking ideas, doesn't mean that Kano was "modernizing" Jujutsu... just that he hit upon an idea that caught.

So, uh.... no. Wrong.

So teaching breakfalling on mats as opposed to wooden floors, developing a belt system, removing dangerous techniques, applying scientific methods to techniques, etc. isn't a more modern approach?

What do you think has been added to Judo? Here's a clue... there's been a lot simplified, not added in. As far as BJJ, not much has been added there, either, it's simply developed along a different line (focusing on the ground, as a major aspect), with the overtly competitive aspect demanding constant adjustment, additions to, and adaptations to the mechanical methods... but it's basic approach is the same. Basically, someone comes up with a new sweep... so someone comes up with a counter... and then a counter to the counter... and so on. That's not adding things, it's developing naturally within it's context. And, for the record, that type of development has nothing to do with real fights/self defence, as it's to do with a competitive arms race... a street fight (to use an over-used and inaccurate stereotype) simply doesn't require development in that direction.

So, uh... no. Wrong.

The point was that classical Jujutsu isn't evolving in that way. Hence why its a "dead" art.

And what, exactly, is your experience with actual Jujutsu? I'm assuming you're referring to the way Judo and BJJ do randori/roll/spar (whichever term you want) here... you do realize that such training methods have been a part of classical traditions for centuries, yeah? I mean, the reason Judo has such a focus on randori is because Kano's first teacher (classical Jujutsu) was a big proponent of it... it comes directly out of Jujutsu training methods. His second school had randori as well... and so did his third (although the teacher wasn't as fond of it, and Kano ran those sessions himself). This was in two separate systems, not just one, you realize... and how could Kano have "supplanted Jujutsu" by winning all the Police tournaments if none of the other systems did randori? They'd have had to to be in the tournament at all... how about the guys from the Handa Dojo learning under the head of Fusen Ryu? They beat Kano's guys, based on their explorations in randori, under the guidance of Mataemon Tanabe... but, of course, these classical systems are dead, and can't possibly do all that sparring and stuff....

So, uh... no. Wrong.

Judo supplanted Jujutsu because by Kano's time Jujutsu was out of favor to most of the Japanese people. To this day, Jujutsu is rare in Japan, and if you ask someone to point you to a Jujutsu school, you're more than likely going to be directed to a Bjj school instead.

Wow, I'll have to tell my friends that are training in, or have trained in, Sosuishi Ryu, Takeuchi Ryu, Araki Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Tatsumi Ryu, Shindo Yoshin Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu, Shinto Tenshin Ryu, Fusen Ryu, and more that they've trained in non-existant things... not to mention the dozens of other systems that I know of, have seen demonstrations of, have contact with people involved with, and so on.

You can tell them whatever you like. The fact of the matter is that classical Jujutsu is rare in the country of its origin. That makes all classical Jj schools outside of Japan highly suspect. If someone wanted to learn Japanese JJ, I'd point them towards a Judo school without hesitation. That at least insures that the prospective student is learning something genuine.

 

[Hanzou]

Taira is a Goju guy? So he is a goju guy that fights like himself. I don't get the question

I don't fight like every Bjj stylist, but there are signature moves that Bjj stylists do that immediately tells you that they had training in Bjj. Just like I could tell that Andrews Nakahara had a Bjj background.

However, whenever I see Goju guys spar, it looks like karate-kickboxing. I don't see those crisp locks and holds that Taira does. Why is that?

what kata? We dont fight like entire Kata because that would be a long fight but we use different parts of the kata in a fight.

It would be nice to see any aspect of the Kata being utilized in a non-compliant demonstration.

 

[ballen0351]

However, whenever I see Goju guys spar, it looks like karate-kickboxing. I don't see those crisp locks and holds that Taira does. Why is that?

See alot of Goju guys sparing huh? Been to many Goju Dojos? Maybe you dont see it because you dont train Goju and you dont know Goju?

It would be nice to see any aspect of the Kata being utilized in a non-compliant demonstration.

Every aspect of the Kata is used in the Bunkai

 

[K-man]

I don't fight like every Bjj stylist, but there are signature moves that Bjj stylists do that immediately tells you that they had training in Bjj. Just like I could tell that Andrews Nakahara had a Bjj background.

However, whenever I see Goju guys spar, it looks like karate-kickboxing. I don't see those crisp locks and holds that Taira does. Why is that?

Lol! The Goju guys sparring are sport based, not TMA. Taira in TMA. The fact that you can't acknowledge the difference speaks volumes. At my dojo we don't spar like your 'Goju guys' either and you won't see it in Okinawa. If you want to see those crisp locks and holds there are at least two schools in America teaching it, Carlsbad and New Jersey.

It would be nice to see any aspect of the Kata being utilized in a non-compliant demonstration.

I doubt you would recognise the difference and where it is non compliant I'm sure you would claim it to be choreographed.

I just heard a great quote that is so applicable to your posts.

"Against logic there is no armour like ignorance."

:asian:

 

[K-man]

For those of you interested in traditional Goju here is another clip of Taira. Things to look for is the way he performs useless kata at the advanced level, little snippets at the beginning and end, and the neat way he causes people to fall over when he demonstrates the application of the stupid stances we practise. And, as in the previous clip everything you see is from the kata. Enjoy

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zCKsvOrjuEE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=zCKsvOrjuEE

 

[ballen0351]

Another thing I was thinking about you cant really compare Taira to any joe schmo Goju guy you meet. Thats like looking at a guy at your local boxing gym and asking why he does not look at crisp and clean as Floyd Mayweather Jr. People like Taira and Morio Higonna are at the top of Goju you cant compare them to some guy you see at the local YMCA

 

[Hanzou]

Another thing I was thinking about you cant really compare Taira to any joe schmo Goju guy you meet. Thats like looking at a guy at your local boxing gym and asking why he does not look at crisp and clean as Floyd Mayweather Jr. People like Taira and Morio Higonna are at the top of Goju you cant compare them to some guy you see at the local YMCA

Its not even about looking crisp and clean. If I'm looking at those Taira vids, then looking at Goju-Ryu sparring, they're completely different from each other. The sparring is more believable, because that's two people going at it in an unpredictable fashion. Taira is doing a demonstration, but he isn't really fighting anyone. Its no different than when I demonstrate an arm lock with my instructor, and then try to apply that same arm lock against a resisting, unyielding opponent. Clearly my arm lock is going to look less crisp and clean than when I demonstrated it with my instructor.

However, we know that Judokas and Bjjers can apply the arm lock if someone's trying to pop their heads off, because we've seen tons of said martial artists applying it.

Where's the Goju guys fighting the way Taira fights? Frankly, he might as well be doing a completely different style. Of course, we'll never know how Taira actually fights, because he doesn't fight competitively.

How convenient.

 

[Hanzou]

For those of you interested in traditional Goju here is another clip of Taira. Things to look for is the way he performs useless kata at the advanced level, little snippets at the beginning and end, and the neat way he causes people to fall over when he demonstrates the application of the stupid stances we practise. And, as in the previous clip everything you see is from the kata. Enjoy

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zCKsvOrjuEE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=zCKsvOrjuEE

And here is Goju Ryu (Okinawan) and Shito Ryu sparring each other;

The fun begins at 3:10.

 

[ballen0351]

And here is Goju Ryu (Okinawan) and Shito Ryu sparring each other;

The fun begins at 3:10.

What is your issue with this? It was a simple Demonstration.

 

[Hanzou]

What is your issue with this? It was a simple Demonstration.

They were sparring. However, its interesting to note that they were still doing that kickboxer style. It didn't resemble what Taira was doing during his demonstration.

Just to further the point, this is a bjj demonstration;

And we're going to be fighting like that during the roll. So that demonstration is more representative of Bjj than something else.

Those two guys free sparring was more representative of Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu (and Okinawan karate in general) than Taira's demonstrations.

 

[K-man]

They were sparring. However, its interesting to note that they were still doing that kickboxer style. It didn't resemble what Taira was doing during his demonstration.

Isn't that amazing? It didn't resemble what Taira was doing because it is a totally different style of training that they do! Taira isn't into sport. What part of that do you have so much trouble understanding or is it just more trolling? I'm sure you have the record for the most useless posts in one thread. (And you can take 'most' with either meaning)

Just to further the point, this is a bjj demonstration;

And we're going to be fighting like that during the roll. So that demonstration is more representative of Bjj than something else.

Although this has absolutely nothing to do with the thread, all of a sudden a demonstration of technique with a complying partner is ok? That's consistency! But no one is questioning the effectiveness of BJJ. When I show you effective karate you deny it exists.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BLibKL7OzDY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBLibKL7OzDY

Those two guys free sparring was more representative of Goju Ryu and Shito Ryu (and Okinawan karate in general) than Taira's demonstrations.

The Goju guy is Akihito Yagi. He is Meibukan style. It is purely a demonstration as ballen pointed out. Meibukan like most of Okinawan styles does not compete in tournaments.

In Goju-Ryu Meibu-kan, Dojos practice forms of Yakusoku Kumite only. Yakusoku Kumite means pre-arranged sparring. There is no practice of Jiyu Kumite or free sparring. There has never been free fighting in classical Okinawan Goju-Ryu.
In Jiyu Kumite, Karate becomes a sport, and classical Karate is not a sport. Okinawans practice Karate-Do, meaning the way of the empty hand. Also Jiyu Kumite can hinder the development of good Karate techniques, especially in Okinawan Goju-Ryu, where the emphasis is ending the fight with one devastating technique (Hito Tsuki).

This thread is about TMA. What Taira was demonstrating it TMA. You have been whinging all through that TMA people don't compete then you show a demonstration of Sport sparring again and say it is typical of Goju Ryu. There are sport based Goju schools and there are traditional schools. I show you the traditional school and it obviously doesn't penetrate that thick outer layer.

As to whether it is representative of Okinawan karate. I'm not sure if I posted this video before but it is Nicholas Pettas, a Kyokushin karateka doing a show called Samurai Spirit. In this episode he is trying to find someone to fight in Okinawa. None of them are interested. I think you'll find this a lot more representative of Okinawan karate than the crap you keep peddling.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BLibKL7OzDY&desktop_uri=/watch?v=BLibKL7OzDY

The Okinawan bit starts at 10:00. The guy he is with, Hokama Sensei, we visited when I was in Okinawa a couple of years back. I'm hoping I can train with him next year. He is a traditional practitioner, like Taira and the rest of his associates at the Jundokan where I was training. Mate, I have been there and seen and been involved in the training in Okinawa. You are talking through your **** when it comes to Okinawan Goju.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Just to further the point, this is a bjj demonstration;

And we're going to be fighting like that during the roll. So that demonstration is more representative of Bjj than something else.

So you are going to be choreographing your techniques and letting your rolling partner do his moves without resisting then?

 

[Chris Parker]

So my constant pointing out that every single thing you typed was wrong didn't sink in, huh?

More like semantics. I'm pretty sure that I said that Judo is a modernized form of Jujutsu. In fact you quoted me saying that.

It's not semantics, it's accurate history and terminology. And yeah, you said that Judo is a modernized form of Jujutsu... you did pick up on the whole "So, uh... no. Wrong" motif, yeah?

In other words, Judo is not (repeated here for emphasis) NOT "modernized" anything. It's Judo. Which is a form (repeated here for emphasis) ONE FORM of Jujutsu. While a number of it's aspects have been adopted by other modern systems, that doesn't mean that Kano was "modernizing" anything... he was simply adapting what he knew to a particular context (which was to do with ingratiating Judo into schools and the education system, nothing to do with "modernizing" anything, other than matching an evolving education system).

Again, semantics. I wouldn't consider Judo a subset of Jujutsu, nor would many other people. You clearly feel differently, but that's all a matter of opinion.

No, it's a matter of recognizing what it is, which is something you've shown to be unable to do in all respects.

As for Jujutsu not being a battlefield art;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu#cite_note-Murata-3

Ah, wiki... Here's a fun fact.. when I accessed that page from my phone, it said "This article has issues"... from a PC it expands by saying it requires additional verification for some aspects. But let's get to the real problem here: You don't know what Jujutsu is, and that wiki article misses it as well, albeit it's a lot closer than you are. We'll deal with that in a bit.

So teaching breakfalling on mats as opposed to wooden floors, developing a belt system, removing dangerous techniques, applying scientific methods to techniques, etc. isn't a more modern approach?

No, it's not a more modern approach. Teaching breakfalls occurred on whatever surface the school used... what makes you think that Judo classes weren't held on wooden floors at times? Besides that, traditionally, you'd be training unarmed methods on matted floors (tatami), the wooden floored dojo are for weapon arts... so no, you're out there. The belt system wasn't anything to do with "modernizing", it was simply a practical answer to there being schools (in universities and educational institutions across Japan) all over the place, so when Kano went to teach, he wanted an immediately recognizable indication of the level of experience the student held if he'd never met them before. In most older systems, there would only be a single dojo, so the level of ability of each student would be known by the instructor already. The removal of "dangerous techniques" also isn't anything to do with "modernizing", it's to do with altering the art to suit a new context (teaching kids in schools, far more than anything to do with competition, for the record). And, as for applying scientific methods to techniques? Seriously old-school, mate. Kashima Shinryu has used such ideas since the mid 16th Century, and they're hardly alone.

The point was that classical Jujutsu isn't evolving in that way. Hence why its a "dead" art.

And my point is "how would you know?" To take Kashima Shinryu as an example again, the Jujutsu syllabus has been altered/restructured with each successive generation over at least the last 3... and a number of times prior to that. Araki Ryu has a long-standing tradition of pressure testing everything they do, altering, or even dropping any part of any method, even whole kata, if they don't "work". That art goes back to the beginning of the 17th Century. One of the best regarded modern combative teachers around, an absolute go-to guy for understanding real violence, is Rory Miller... who is trained in Sosuishi Ryu, a banpa ryu (off-shoot system) of Takenouchi Ryu. Again, seriously old school here... and if you think that Rory Miller is wasting his time with stuff that doesn't have any value, you're seriously out of your mind, and completely out of your depth.

Judo supplanted Jujutsu because by Kano's time Jujutsu was out of favor to most of the Japanese people.

Judo supplanted nothing. There was a backlash against anything seen to be related to the samurai after the Meiji Restoration of 1868, but there was no public school system teaching Jujutsu. Individual police areas would pick their own approach, but after the Meiji Restoration, there was a push to make things uniform, which is where the police tournaments came into it.

To this day, Jujutsu is rare in Japan, and if you ask someone to point you to a Jujutsu school, you're more than likely going to be directed to a Bjj school instead.

No, you're not. You'd more likely get a quizzical look, and be asked if you mean Judo or Aikido...

You can tell them whatever you like. The fact of the matter is that classical Jujutsu is rare in the country of its origin. That makes all classical Jj schools outside of Japan highly suspect. If someone wanted to learn Japanese JJ, I'd point them towards a Judo school without hesitation. That at least insures that the prospective student is learning something genuine.

Right, let's deal with this idea of "Jujutsu is rare in Japan". When you're looking at the older systems, in most cases each system would have a single dojo. There was no single art called "Jujutsu", so saying that "Jujutsu is rare" is just missing the point in the first place... it'd be like saying that "East LA High School" is rare... but High Schools, well, aren't. I can list dozens, if not hundreds of genuine Jujutsu schools in Japan, not to mention what's found in other schools, or the fact that there are more modern, larger organizations that offer genuine Jujutsu (and Jujutsu related) systems around the world... seriously, you're way out of your depth here. Suggesting Judo is fine, of course... you'll find that many classical practitioners have some exposure or experience in Judo as well (if they're Japanese, they did it in school), but your reasoning is way off base. Oh, and the word is "ensure", not "insure"... one means "to make certain", the other is "to provide financial compensation for loss".

 

[Hanzou]

So you are going to be choreographing your techniques and letting your rolling partner do his moves without resisting then?

You miss the point. I have no problem with someone demonstrating a technique. My issue is show me someone fighting (or sparring) using those techniques.

I haven't seen a single Goju-Ryu stylist who does. Every Goju-Ryu sparring vid I've seen shows them fighting in a kickboxer-lite sort of way. That is similar to what I've seen in person when I sparred against a Goju-Ryu stylist a long time ago when I still did Shotokan.

 

[Hanzou]

So my constant pointing out that every single thing you typed was wrong didn't sink in, huh?

It's not semantics, it's accurate history and terminology. And yeah, you said that Judo is a modernized form of Jujutsu... you did pick up on the whole "So, uh... no. Wrong" motif, yeah?

In other words, Judo is not (repeated here for emphasis) NOT "modernized" anything. It's Judo. Which is a form (repeated here for emphasis) ONE FORM of Jujutsu. While a number of it's aspects have been adopted by other modern systems, that doesn't mean that Kano was "modernizing" anything... he was simply adapting what he knew to a particular context (which was to do with ingratiating Judo into schools and the education system, nothing to do with "modernizing" anything, other than matching an evolving education system).

Again, that's a matter of opinion. I believe that making Jujutsu safer, applying modern principles, spreading martial arts to children, etc. is a modernization of the art. Afterall, Judo emerged during the period of Japanese modernization. It wouldn't have survived and flourished if it was "just another Jujutsu school".

Ah, wiki... Here's a fun fact.. when I accessed that page from my phone, it said "This article has issues"... from a PC it expands by saying it requires additional verification for some aspects. But let's get to the real problem here: You don't know what Jujutsu is, and that wiki article misses it as well, albeit it's a lot closer than you are. We'll deal with that in a bit.

The source of that quote was this; Kanō, Jigorō (2006) [2005]. "A BRIEF HISTORY OF JUJUTSU". In Murata, Naoki. Mind over muscle: writings from the founder of Judo.

I guess you now know more about Jujutsu than Jigoro Kano. :lol2:

No, it's not a more modern approach. Teaching breakfalls occurred on whatever surface the school used... what makes you think that Judo classes weren't held on wooden floors at times? Besides that, traditionally, you'd be training unarmed methods on matted floors (tatami), the wooden floored dojo are for weapon arts... so no, you're out there. The belt system wasn't anything to do with "modernizing", it was simply a practical answer to there being schools (in universities and educational institutions across Japan) all over the place, so when Kano went to teach, he wanted an immediately recognizable indication of the level of experience the student held if he'd never met them before. In most older systems, there would only be a single dojo, so the level of ability of each student would be known by the instructor already. The removal of "dangerous techniques" also isn't anything to do with "modernizing", it's to do with altering the art to suit a new context (teaching kids in schools, far more than anything to do with competition, for the record). And, as for applying scientific methods to techniques? Seriously old-school, mate. Kashima Shinryu has used such ideas since the mid 16th Century, and they're hardly alone.

You do understand that the scientific method in Japan c. 1500-1599 is far different and less accurate than the scientific method applied in Japan during the Meiji restoration when the Japanese had access to western technology. I mean, Issac Newton, the father of modern physics wasn't even born until 1642.

Judo supplanted nothing. There was a backlash against anything seen to be related to the samurai after the Meiji Restoration of 1868, but there was no public school system teaching Jujutsu. Individual police areas would pick their own approach, but after the Meiji Restoration, there was a push to make things uniform, which is where the police tournaments came into it.

Aren't there more Judo dojos in Japan than Jujutsu dojos?

No, you're not. You'd more likely get a quizzical look, and be asked if you mean Judo or Aikido...

Actually more than likely a Brazilian Jujutsu school. Bjj is very popular in Japan.

Right, let's deal with this idea of "Jujutsu is rare in Japan". When you're looking at the older systems, in most cases each system would have a single dojo. There was no single art called "Jujutsu", so saying that "Jujutsu is rare" is just missing the point in the first place... it'd be like saying that "East LA High School" is rare... but High Schools, well, aren't. I can list dozens, if not hundreds of genuine Jujutsu schools in Japan, not to mention what's found in other schools, or the fact that there are more modern, larger organizations that offer genuine Jujutsu (and Jujutsu related) systems around the world... seriously, you're way out of your depth here. Suggesting Judo is fine, of course... you'll find that many classical practitioners have some exposure or experience in Judo as well (if they're Japanese, they did it in school), but your reasoning is way off base. Oh, and the word is "ensure", not "insure"... one means "to make certain", the other is "to provide financial compensation for loss".

Considering that most JJJ here in the states is more than likely a scam created by a guy who combined Judo with Karate in the hopes of roping in gullible people, "insure" works just fine in this context.

 

[Kframe]

How about we point him to Dan DJurivics blog? Ya he may not be the best with other arts, but regarding GOJU I feel he is great. It will take a lot of digging on his forum and blog but there are links to him and others sparring. He is a traditionalist and at shows in the sparring. You can clearly see stance transitions, deflection with movement and other nice things..

Honestly, with the proliferation of sport karate and taedo he is about the only karate instructor id trust to teach me. Sadly he lives down under and im not moving there.

 

[Kframe]

K man, I hate to ask this, but if traditional Goju schools don't do free sparring and only pre arranged, how do they actually pressure test any of there skills? Pre arranged sparring of any flavor does not help the student deal with unexpected attacks, it only helps them read a script. My feeling is script reading does not equal martial arts fighting.

Now if im mistaken, and have misread what you posted please help me clear up the confusion.