MMA vs TMA

[MJS]

Small Circle comes from Judo and Danzen Ryu. Judo actually predates Danzen Ryu.

And yeah, a lot of them are a joke. Usually its some guy who combined Karate and Judo and call it Jj to make more money. Obviously there's some legit schools out there (if you can trace their lineage), but you're better off taking Judo. Less chance of being taken for a ride.

I'm not saying there aren't mcdojos out there, however, I wouldn't paint every SCJJ or JJJ dojo out there, as a joke, unless you've seen them all.

Where did I say that? I simply said that some old Asian guy slapping around his students doesn't really prove the effectiveness of his art. It certainly looks cool, but then again, so does Steven Segal throwing his students around without touching them.

Show me that guy against a meathead who wants to pop his head off, and him using that great looking kata bunkai to subdue him. Then I'll be impressed.

Where did you say that? Have you been reading your own posts? Pretty much every post you make, you imply that the vast majority..other than MMA of course, don't train alive, with resistance, and unless it's on film, it didn't happen. Sorry, but I call BS on all that.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Some people seem to be getting emotional about their art, but I think some of what's being said has merit. I, too, have noticed that when I have seen sparring done by various styles, the sparring has looked remarkably similar, so I can see how someone could come to some of the conclusions in this thread. I remember watching a "kung fu" competition on TV. If it hadn't been called "kung fu" by title and by the announcers, I wouldn't have recognized it as kung fu. It looked like sloppy kickboxing.

I'm not saying TMA are all ineffective, but I can see how people might come to that conclusion.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk

 

[MJS]

So you are going to be choreographing your techniques and letting your rolling partner do his moves without resisting then?

I was just going to say the same thing! So, to sum this up: A clip of a high ranking Goju master is posted, and its deemed garbage. A BJJ clip is posted, also of a demo, and it's the real deal. Alrighty then. LOL!

 

[RTKDCMB]

I mean, Issac Newton, the father of modern physics wasn't even born until 1642.

Not that it has anything to do with this thread (or forum for that matter) but modern physics was not even invented until the 20th century. Issac Newton was a classical physicist. Galileo (1564-1642) was also called the 'father of modern physics' which was modern at the time but still only classical physics.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I, too, have noticed that when I have seen sparring done by various styles, the sparring has looked remarkably similar, so I can see how someone could come to some of the conclusions in this thread. I remember watching a "kung fu" competition on TV. If it hadn't been called "kung fu" by title and by the announcers, I wouldn't have recognized it as kung fu. It looked like sloppy kickboxing.

I have noticed that as well but that was not the case with the Goju Ryu versus Shito Ryu video.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when I have seen sparring done by various styles, the sparring has looked remarkably similar,...

The guy in the following clip had drilled this combo so many times. That's why he can pull it out twice within 15 seconds. It's from training and not from luck.

You should always trains as the way you fights. When you fight, you always use your best skill. Whether your best skills will work or not is one thing, it you keep trying to use your best skill, you will never fight the same way as everybody else does.

 

[K-man]

K man, I hate to ask this, but if traditional Goju schools don't do free sparring and only pre arranged, how do they actually pressure test any of there skills? Pre arranged sparring of any flavor does not help the student deal with unexpected attacks, it only helps them read a script. My feeling is script reading does not equal martial arts fighting.

Now if im mistaken, and have misread what you posted please help me clear up the confusion.

My school, we don't do any sparring like you see on the clips posted. If someone is that far away we don't have to fight. If they are in your face, like shoving or in your face threatening, yes that's the real situation. Someone rushing into hit you sure. Someone grabbing you from behind etc. so we train against those situations. How much experience you have determines the intensity. Occasionally we will put on head guards but normally not. We don't do any prearranged sparring as people normally think of prearranged being a sequence. Our prearranged means you know what the initial attack is. For example you know your partner is going to attack with a left right combo or a grab and punch, things you're likely to encounter in a real fight. After that you are on your own. Next step after that, you move on to random attacks.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't spar but I belong to the school that says you fight as you train. If you train for sport you may not be prepared for real violence. That's not denigrating any style. Hopefully all training should provide the means to defend yourself.

One other thing re sparring. When I trained Japanese Goju we had two types of sparring. Awasse kumite and Jiyu kumite. Awasse is slow sparring testing for openings etc but not trying to belt the crap out of each other. Almost all video posted of Goju sparring is Awasse. Even tournament fighting is not full contact. Jiyu kumite is reserved for the cage as in really trying to hit hard.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Originally Posted by RTKDCMB
So you are going to be choreographing your techniques and letting your rolling partner do his moves without resisting then?

You miss the point. I have no problem with someone demonstrating a technique. My issue is show me someone fighting (or sparring) using those techniques.

I haven't seen a single Goju-Ryu stylist who does. Every Goju-Ryu sparring vid I've seen shows them fighting in a kickboxer-lite sort of way. That is similar to what I've seen in person when I sparred against a Goju-Ryu stylist a long time ago when I still did Shotokan.

Lol. You have never seen 'traditional' karate. You keep saying it over and over and keep quoting the same sport based karate to prove your point. Even when a clip of traditional type training is posted you dismiss it because it wasn't within your experience. It wasn't within my understanding either until recently. The difference is in our attitudes. You say "It's different to my experience so it can't be real". I saw it and said, "Wow, this is incredible. I need to change my training".

 

[Dinkydoo]

Pre arranged sparring of any flavor does not help the student deal with unexpected attacks, it only helps them read a script. My feeling is script reading does not equal martial arts fighting.

I have to agree with this. Prearranged drills have their purpose (and a firm place within my training) but my real learning always comes from
the free-fighting type partner work each week. Being caught out and having a near miss (or a receiving light bare hand strike) is how I learn best.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not saying there aren't mcdojos out there, however, I wouldn't paint every SCJJ or JJJ dojo out there, as a joke, unless you've seen them all.

No, but it makes every Jjj school suspect, because like many TMA styles its legitimacy is wrapped up in dusty old history books, and not on its effectiveness. Unlike Judo, Bjj, Boxing, and other styles that are pressure tested by every wanna-be MMA guy or meathead that pops in, TMA instructors can sit back and peddle bullcrap upon their students for decades and no one will question it.

Where did you say that? Have you been reading your own posts? Pretty much every post you make, you imply that the vast majority..other than MMA of course, don't train alive, with resistance, and unless it's on film, it didn't happen. Sorry, but I call BS on all that.

I've said it throughout my posts. And no, most TMAs don't have alive training. Simply the nature of the beast. That's why their demonstrations don't match their sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

Lol. You have never seen 'traditional' karate. You keep saying it over and over and keep quoting the same sport based karate to prove your point. Even when a clip of traditional type training is posted you dismiss it because it wasn't within your experience. It wasn't within my understanding either until recently. The difference is in our attitudes. You say "It's different to my experience so it can't be real". I saw it and said, "Wow, this is incredible. I need to change my training".

So again, where are the Goju-Ryu black belts fighting like Taira? The black belts I've seen are all fighting in that pseudo kick boxer style.

watch this;

Bjj demonstration:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EbGabrl2GZc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=EbGabrl2GZc

Bjj sparring:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vqDwWfgOeoc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=vqDwWfgOeoc

Its simple man.

 

[seasoned]

I'm going to side tract just once and that will be it. I qualify every year with a firearm and I'm on the range a few times per month shooting targets. We make it as real as possible but all shooting is done on inanimate objects. I hope you get my point. The training is as much mental as physical and both count. Grant you people have been known to freeze up and I'm not saying pressure testing is not good, but there are a lot of people doing a lot of serious jobs with the type of training I am talking about above. Please don't take me wrong and I apologize for any side tracking, but.

 

[RTKDCMB]

No, but it makes every Jjj school suspect, because like many TMA styles its legitimacy is wrapped up in dusty old history books, and not on its effectiveness. TMA instructors can sit back and peddle bullcrap upon their students for decades and no one will question it.

I don't know where you get your misinformation from but that is complete rubbish.

I've said it throughout my posts. And no, most TMAs don't have alive training. Simply the nature of the beast. That's why their demonstrations don't match their sparring.

Yeah they do, it's called free sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know where you get your misinformation from but that is complete rubbish.

How is it complete rubbish?

Think about it; which is less likely to be a fraud, a boxing club, or some exotic sounding JJJ or Kung Fu school that you've never heard of before?

Yeah they do, it's called free sparring.

Only if its full contact and no ones pulling punches. Sort of like old school Kyokushin where you had to fight through 30 black belts full contact to get your black belt. Here's a video of a Kyokushin belt exam. It's not for the squeamish, because they beat the hell out of each other.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=naq30Oak978

Stuff like this is why Kyokushin is respected in MMA circles, despite its semi-traditional slant (and some Kyokushin schools have gone soft).

Of course, Kyokushin isn't TMA.

 

[ballen0351]

How is it complete rubbish?

Think about it; which is less likely to be a fraud, a boxing club, or some exotic sounding JJJ or Kung Fu school that you've never heard of before?





Only if its full contact and no ones pulling punches. Sort of like old school Kyokushin where you had to fight through 30 black belts full contact to get your black belt. Here's a video of a Kyokushin belt exam. It's not for the squeamish, because they beat the hell out of each other.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=naq30Oak978

Stuff like this is why Kyokushin is respected in MMA circles, despite its semi-traditional slant (and some Kyokushin schools have gone soft).

Of course, Kyokushin isn't TMA.

So do you go full contact in BJJ? Or do you let up when someone taps before anyone gets hurt? So unless your walking around with two broken elbows right now your point is meaningless.

 

[K-man]

So again, where are the Goju-Ryu black belts fighting like Taira? The black belts I've seen are all fighting in that pseudo kick boxer style.

watch this;

Bjj demonstration:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EbGabrl2GZc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=EbGabrl2GZc

Bjj sparring:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vqDwWfgOeoc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=vqDwWfgOeoc

Its simple man.

It is unbelievably simple so you must be unbelievably stupid!

Traditional Goju does not compete. What part of that simple sentence can't you understand?

I have already posted two videos of Taira, someone else posted a clip of Paul Enfield from Carlsbad.

Here's another of a Taira with Taba.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IwMZNPkCdL0&desktop_uri=/watch?v=IwMZNPkCdL0

A bit more traditional training, this time Portuguese.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGSOm3LL1Y&desktop_uri=/watch?v=SCGSOm3LL1Y

That's plenty of Black Belts training.

Maybe some more from Lithuania?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XXpjQGoUeR8&desktop_uri=/watch?v=XXpjQGoUeR8

Maybe Canada is closer to home.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rVVrmTWg3NE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=rVVrmTWg3NE

I don't know what you need to see to convince you that we don't train to compete. As I've said. You have never seen traditional Goju so stop making such a fool of yourself with your inane comments. I find your comments offensive to be honest.

 

[K-man]

Think about it; which is less likely to be a fraud, a boxing club, or some exotic sounding JJJ or Kung Fu school that you've never heard of before?

I'm thinking about it but I can't understand why any of them are likely to be a fraud. In fact I think the number of fraudulent martial art clubs world wide as a percentage would be minuscule.

 

[Hanzou]

So do you go full contact in BJJ? Or do you let up when someone taps before anyone gets hurt? So unless your walking around with two broken elbows right now your point is meaningless.

Yes, we go full contact until someone submits. There's no reason to continue to go full blast if someone submits to you.

 

[Hanzou]

It is unbelievably simple so you must be unbelievably stupid!

Traditional Goju does not compete. What part of that simple sentence can't you understand?

I have already posted two videos of Taira, someone else posted a clip of Paul Enfield from Carlsbad.

Here's another of a Taira with Taba.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IwMZNPkCdL0&desktop_uri=/watch?v=IwMZNPkCdL0

A bit more traditional training, this time Portuguese.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGSOm3LL1Y&desktop_uri=/watch?v=SCGSOm3LL1Y

That's plenty of Black Belts training.

Maybe some more from Lithuania?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XXpjQGoUeR8&desktop_uri=/watch?v=XXpjQGoUeR8

Maybe Canada is closer to home.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rVVrmTWg3NE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=rVVrmTWg3NE

I don't know what you need to see to convince you that we don't train to compete. As I've said. You have never seen traditional Goju so stop making such a fool of yourself with your inane comments. I find your comments offensive to be honest.

Again, great demonstrations. Now where's two Goju Ryu guys fighting like that Bunkai?

 

[K-man]

Again, great demonstrations. Now where's two Goju Ryu guys fighting like that Bunkai?

Sorry, I have posted half a dozen clips showing black belts training the bunkai at various levels of intensity because you intimated nobody, apart from Taira trains that way. If the speed and intensity is any faster the receiver cannot defend. The defence is what we call predicted response. You either respond to protect or you get hit. Even at half speed you have to pull your strike. You won't find any video of two Goju guys 'fighting' as in playing like you do in MMA because traditional Okinawan Goju does not spar and does not fight in tournaments. That must be six or eight times I have said that to you. I'll ask again. What part of "traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu karate does not spar and does not train for competition" are you having such trouble comprehending. I put it to my four year old grandson, whom I am already teaching traditional karate, and he understands perfectly.

But I suppose I should say thank you for acknowledging that they were 'great demonstrations'. That's a big step from TMA is crap which was your start point.