MMA vs TMA

[ballen0351]

My Judo class also talk about stances

Wait you just said before stances are pointless now you say you do learn them. so how are they pointless? Id like to hear your instructors opinion on his pointless stances he teaches you

However, we don't sit in cat stance or horse stance for several minutes perfecting our stance,

yes why would we ever want to make sure we have the basics down

we discuss the proper stance while we're performing the action. So if I'm doing a throw, my instructor will correct my posture as I perform the throw.

but but stances are pointless remember

This is done so when mastered, the movement is smooth and fluid. You can also "feel" it, because if your movement isn't correct, the throw will be more difficult to perform. The better the technique, the easier the throw becomes.

so the better the basic fundamentals and stances are the easier it is huh? no kidding

If we learned 10 different stances, and then attempted to break down those stances into steps in a throw, it would be a cumbersome mess. Whenever I go up against a Karateka, TKD, or Kung Fu exponent, their throws and takedowns are pretty non existent. You also get two types; The ones who stick in one spot like a giant target, or the kind that bounce around.

I guess your just so much better then everyone else. So much better then all Karateka, TKD, anf Kung Fu guys. See I had no Idea you were such a bad *** fighter Im sorry I doubted you

 

[K-man]

Did you miss the parts where I showed that you can perform all of those throws from a natural or boxer stance?

I'm sorry, that is just not correct and none of the videos you have linked show any takedowns from a boxing stance. Boxers don't train other footwork because they don't do takedowns. If you look at judo videos there stance is totally different and they step into other stances as they do the throw, look at any of the throws they do apart from when they go to the ground with their opponent and you will have a TMA stance. Whether they train those stances or not is immaterial. We do train them but mostly by performing the throw.

The majority of MMA fighters blend kickboxing/boxing and wrestling/judo/Bjj incredibly well.

No argument.

Again, its the simple fact that you have one side that is obsolete, and another side that is dynamic and ever-changing.

Here is where you go of the rails again. It is not a simple fact that one side is obsolete at all. In fact I would challenge you, apart from when we perform kihon kata, to differentiate between most of our training and general MMA training. The difference is that you want to go to the ground and I don't. Even if I do go to the ground you will have to have a good ground game to get me, especially if we agree that once I could damage you we stop, same as tapping out. TMA training is very similar. It is hands on against total resistance. Obviously we don't punch each other full power in training but we do let our partner know if their guard is not right. There isn't much in the Krav Maga course that isn't found in TMA, firearm training excepted. Sure there are variations of technique and the KM is less complicated but the base material is the same.

For example, watch this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUsUbFOUqtrU4oRSDfjb78ig

That head movement and evasion comes form boxing. Which is superior for self defense? That level of evasion and defense, or the archiac blocking and static stances of traditional MA?

Once again you are spouting crap. Head movement and evasion is part of every TMA. We even have words for it. Tai Tsabaki when you evade by moving your head and body and Ashi Tsabaki when you move by stepping. The only time we block is when we are caught by surprise or when we are being pummelled and you close up. Basically they are instinctive but the ones I teach are the KM ones. Archaic blocking does not exist. What you have seen people doing in basic karate classes is schoolboy karate at its worst. It is not TMA. I teach there are no blocks in karate. To my mind it is totally illogical to use those techniques as blocks. I invite anyone to stand in front of me and use any 'block' that they have been taught to stop me hitting them. So far I have not had one. So when you spoke earlier about someone stopping you punching them in the face using an upper block, I agree with you. If you did the same to me I believe it a reasonable chance you might be sleeping it off because for me, one of the applications of Age Uke is an uppercut. None of the applications I teach is a block. Almost all the Ukes involve a deflection but there is in almost all applications a simultaneous strike.

And I'm not sure where this obsession with static stances come from. They are not used in a static situation. The only fighting stance we have is similar to your boxer's stance except we fight off both sides. All other stances we slip into as we are doing takedowns or moving about. Sure we train them separately to teach them but again we are talking schoolboy karate. I really think you should go and watch training in a real TMA school before you start posting such inaccurate crap.

Oh, by the way. As for competition, some of us don't want to compete. I did actually go in tournaments until I was 58 but in honesty it was not my scene. I read elsewhere to that the vast majority of MMA guys also have no intention to compete. Like people across the whole spectrum, most of us train to keep fit, to have fun and to learn to defend ourselves if attacked. I have no doubt that MMA is like that as are TMAs.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Again, its the simple fact that you have one side that is obsolete, and another side that is dynamic and ever-changing.

For example, watch this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUsUbFOUqtrU4oRSDfjb78ig

That head movement and evasion comes form boxing. Which is superior for self defense? That level of evasion and defense, or the archiac blocking and static stances of traditional MA?

Well let's see, get some regular people off the street with little or no martial arts training and tell them exactly where to punch you and have them only punch you there while you use the head movement you have used in many years of boxing. Then get someone on a martial arts forum to put that up as "proof' that boxing is superior to traditional martial arts. Good luck with that.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Here is an example of how applications should be taught in Kung Fu; not enough power to injure your partner but enough force to train correct body mechanics - use solo practice with heavy bag or pad work to develop power within the applications.

Also note the (very) subtle use of horse, twisted and bow stances.

Low stances = conditioning (usually)

High stances = fighting application

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyMDI0MDcy.html?x

 

[ballen0351]

Did you miss the parts where I showed that you can perform all of those throws from a natural or boxer stance?

The majority of MMA fighters blend kickboxing/boxing and wrestling/judo/Bjj incredibly well.

Again, its the simple fact that you have one side that is obsolete, and another side that is dynamic and ever-changing.

For example, watch this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUsUbFOUqtrU4oRSDfjb78ig

That head movement and evasion comes form boxing. Which is superior for self defense? That level of evasion and defense, or the archiac blocking and static stances of traditional MA?

Evasion is a major part of my training. You just have no clue what your talking about. Thats all there is to it. You have very limited knowledge of TMA and based your opinion on something you know little to nothing about. You have yet to post anything you claim is so great that we dont already do in my Goju Class. Where do you think all these great techniques come from? They come from TMA.

 

[ballen0351]

Im going back to the Study where at least when people make an argument they may be wrong but they at least have some idea about what they are talking about.

 

[MJS]

My Judo class also talk about stances. However, we don't sit in cat stance or horse stance for several minutes perfecting our stance, we discuss the proper stance while we're performing the action. So if I'm doing a throw, my instructor will correct my posture as I perform the throw. This is done so when mastered, the movement is smooth and fluid. You can also "feel" it, because if your movement isn't correct, the throw will be more difficult to perform. The better the technique, the easier the throw becomes.

If we learned 10 different stances, and then attempted to break down those stances into steps in a throw, it would be a cumbersome mess. Whenever I go up against a Karateka, TKD, or Kung Fu exponent, their throws and takedowns are pretty non existent. You also get two types; The ones who stick in one spot like a giant target, or the kind that bounce around.

Both types are easy to take down.

Let me ask you...when you're doing BJJ, do you not spend time learning various positions, escapes, counters, submissions, etc, all from the top and bottom? I don't know about you, but my grappling teachers would always stress position before submission. So, going on that, if you're not spending the time perfecting those things, just like the stances, well..when you go to use them, you're going to suck.

 

[MJS]

That head movement and evasion comes form boxing. Which is superior for self defense? That level of evasion and defense, or the archiac blocking and static stances of traditional MA?

Gee, thats funny....if you watch a TMA such as Kyokushin, well, I don't know about you, but I see lots of evasion and defense. Oh yeah, and those static stances...well, those guys look like they're moving pretty fluidly to me.

 

[Hanzou]

Wait you just said before stances are pointless now you say you do learn them. so how are they pointless? Id like to hear your instructors opinion on his pointless stances he teaches you

I said cycling through dozens of stances you never use is pointless. How many people are going to be fighting in Front Stance, Cat Stance, or that low Kung Fu stance for example?

yes why would we ever want to make sure we have the basics down

In Judo the basics are the motions and proper posture during execution. Its not the same thing as standing in a stance for several minutes, then switching to the opposite side for several more minutes. All the while, when you begin free sparring, you're in a different stance altogether.

so the better the basic fundamentals and stances are the easier it is huh? no kidding

Again, the fundamentals are taught within execution. They aren't taught in isolation. So when its time for me to actually execute a throw, my mind is replicating the body motion, not the stance I'm supposed to be in to properly execute the throw.

I guess your just so much better then everyone else. So much better then all Karateka, TKD, anf Kung Fu guys. See I had no Idea you were such a bad *** fighter Im sorry I doubted you

Just my experience. I've seemed to have missed all of these amazing TMA practitioners.

 

[Hanzou]

Gee, thats funny....if you watch a TMA such as Kyokushin, well, I don't know about you, but I see lots of evasion and defense. Oh yeah, and those static stances...well, those guys look like they're moving pretty fluidly to me.

Kyokushin is not a TMA. It was founded in 1964, places a pretty high value on competition, and it forms the basis of most Japanese kickboxing.

Let me ask you...when you're doing BJJ, do you not spend time learning various positions, escapes, counters, submissions, etc, all from the top and bottom? I don't know about you, but my grappling teachers would always stress position before submission. So, going on that, if you're not spending the time perfecting those things, just like the stances, well..when you go to use them, you're going to suck.

Its not the same thing though. When I'm learning positioning, I'm learning its application at the same time, and that application is exactly how I would use it in a self defense situation.

When I did Karate and TKD before that, we were kicking and punching from every stance. Reverse punching from a front stance isn't very practical. When it came time to spar, our bodies instinctively returned to a more natural fighting posture. However, while training, we were still doing those awkward stances, and forced to hold those awkward stances until it was correct. This practice also stretched into the katas, which taught us more awkward stances and movements.

When I started practicing kickboxing, everything was practiced from the natural fighting posture.

 

[Hanzou]

Well let's see, get some regular people off the street with little or no martial arts training and tell them exactly where to punch you and have them only punch you there while you use the head movement you have used in many years of boxing. Then get someone on a martial arts forum to put that up as "proof' that boxing is superior to traditional martial arts. Good luck with that.

You think you're going to be fighting a bunch of black belts or prize fighters if you get into a fight on the street? :lol:

 

[Hanzou]

Once again you are spouting crap. Head movement and evasion is part of every TMA. We even have words for it. Tai Tsabaki when you evade by moving your head and body and Ashi Tsabaki when you move by stepping. The only time we block is when we are caught by surprise or when we are being pummelled and you close up. Basically they are instinctive but the ones I teach are the KM ones. Archaic blocking does not exist. What you have seen people doing in basic karate classes is schoolboy karate at its worst. It is not TMA. I teach there are no blocks in karate. To my mind it is totally illogical to use those techniques as blocks. I invite anyone to stand in front of me and use any 'block' that they have been taught to stop me hitting them. So far I have not had one. So when you spoke earlier about someone stopping you punching them in the face using an upper block, I agree with you. If you did the same to me I believe it a reasonable chance you might be sleeping it off because for me, one of the applications of Age Uke is an uppercut. None of the applications I teach is a block. Almost all the Ukes involve a deflection but there is in almost all applications a simultaneous strike.

And I'm not sure where this obsession with static stances come from. They are not used in a static situation. The only fighting stance we have is similar to your boxer's stance except we fight off both sides. All other stances we slip into as we are doing takedowns or moving about. Sure we train them separately to teach them but again we are talking schoolboy karate. I really think you should go and watch training in a real TMA school before you start posting such inaccurate crap.

Check out that awesome Goju Ryu stance transitioning, footwork and head movement;

Some of that black belt sparring..... :lol:

 

[RTKDCMB]

I said cycling through dozens of stances you never use is pointless. How many people are going to be fighting in Front Stance, Cat Stance, or that low Kung Fu stance for example?



In Judo the basics are the motions and proper posture during execution. Its not the same thing as standing in a stance for several minutes, then switching to the opposite side for several more minutes. All the while, when you begin free sparring, you're in a different stance altogether.



Again, the fundamentals are taught within execution. They aren't taught in isolation. So when its time for me to actually execute a throw, my mind is replicating the body motion, not the stance I'm supposed to be in to properly execute the throw.



Just my experience. I've seemed to have missed all of these amazing TMA practitioners.

Here's a thought, instead of denigrating all things TMA and trying to convince everyone that you have training methods that are so much better than any TMA that ever existed, why don't you put up a video or 2 of yourself training and let everyone here decide for themselves if they are wasting their time or not drilling "pointless stances" and striking and blocking? Lets see if your modern training methods are making TMA training obsolete.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You think you're going to be fighting a bunch of black belts or prize fighters if you get into a fight on the street? :lol:

You never know, one thing is for sure though, they won't be punching where I tell them to.:duh:

 

[MJS]

Kyokushin is not a TMA. It was founded in 1964, places a pretty high value on competition, and it forms the basis of most Japanese kickboxing.

Be that as it may, for the sake of discussion here, *I* was putting any art that is not considered MMA, in the TMA category. So, going on what you say, I take it that because Kyokushin places value on competition, that you're ok with it as a martial art, despite having stances, and other traditional things about it?

Its not the same thing though. When I'm learning positioning, I'm learning its application at the same time, and that application is exactly how I would use it in a self defense situation.

When I did Karate and TKD before that, we were kicking and punching from every stance. Reverse punching from a front stance isn't very practical. When it came time to spar, our bodies instinctively returned to a more natural fighting posture. However, while training, we were still doing those awkward stances, and forced to hold those awkward stances until it was correct. This practice also stretched into the katas, which taught us more awkward stances and movements.

When I started practicing kickboxing, everything was practiced from the natural fighting posture. [/COLOR]

Ok, but you still started from a slower pace right? To be clear, when learning an escape from the mount, you're learning the basics, the fine points, so the top guy isn't really offering much resistance at that initial time. As the bottom guy gets more comfortable, more pressure, resistance is given, until you're now in a full rolling/sparring setting.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I was learning to punch, I started off slow, and gradually added in the movement/footwork, to make things more practical.

 

[Hanzou]

Be that as it may, for the sake of discussion here, *I* was putting any art that is not considered MMA, in the TMA category. So, going on what you say, I take it that because Kyokushin places value on competition, that you're ok with it as a martial art, despite having stances, and other traditional things about it?

I'm okay with every martial art. I just believe that some waste their time doing pointless things that bog down the training process. Kyokushin is guilty of that since it has the trappings of a lot of traditional karate styles.

Ok, but you still started from a slower pace right? To be clear, when learning an escape from the mount, you're learning the basics, the fine points, so the top guy isn't really offering much resistance at that initial time. As the bottom guy gets more comfortable, more pressure, resistance is given, until you're now in a full rolling/sparring setting.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I was learning to punch, I started off slow, and gradually added in the movement/footwork, to make things more practical.

I'm not criticizing the pace, I'm criticizing the purpose. Why are you learning techniques that have little to no practical value? Why are you going through all of this traditional nonsense when the end result has you fighting like a crippled kickboxer with bad footwork and hand skills?

The intentions are noble, but the results speak for themselves.

 

[MJS]

I'm okay with every martial art. I just believe that some waste their time doing pointless things that bog down the training process. Kyokushin is guilty of that since it has the trappings of a lot of traditional karate styles.

Ok.

I'm not criticizing the pace, I'm criticizing the purpose. Why are you learning techniques that have little to no practical value? Why are you going through all of this traditional nonsense when the end result has you fighting like a crippled kickboxer with bad footwork and hand skills?

The intentions are noble, but the results speak for themselves.

I would say the best answer to that, is for the sake of the traditions in the art. Some arts train with a sword, yet you don't see anyone walking around with one. I train in the FMA (Arnis) but I don't walk around with a stick and rarely carry a blade. Yet you can pick up a pen and apply some of the same moves as you can with a blade. Obviously you can't cut.

As I've said, everyones goals are different, and while I personally think that some are kinda crazy, well, to each his own. Personally, as much as some things may piss me off, it's not my job to police the martial arts world. I care about how I train, and of course anyone that I might teach, but other than that...to each their own. IMO though, I do find it hard to believe that ALL arts that fall under the TMA umbrella, are useless.

 

[Hanzou]

I would say the best answer to that, is for the sake of the traditions in the art. Some arts train with a sword, yet you don't see anyone walking around with one. I train in the FMA (Arnis) but I don't walk around with a stick and rarely carry a blade. Yet you can pick up a pen and apply some of the same moves as you can with a blade. Obviously you can't cut.

As I've said, everyones goals are different, and while I personally think that some are kinda crazy, well, to each his own. Personally, as much as some things may piss me off, it's not my job to police the martial arts world. I care about how I train, and of course anyone that I might teach, but other than that...to each their own. IMO though, I do find it hard to believe that ALL arts that fall under the TMA umbrella, are useless.

I have no issue with that. Just know what your martial art is, and what it isn't. For example, when I see people believe that they are Ninjas, and do all that bizarre Ninja stuff, that's fine, they can do what they wish. However, when they start making claims that their art is too "deadly" to be part of the competitive MA world, I have to call them out on their nonsense. A guy who thinks he's a Ninja or a samurai is no different than a guy at a renaissance fair thinking he's a squire or a knight because he wears the armor and participates in jousting tournaments. We'd laugh at the knight wannabe, but actually take the Ninja and Samurai guy seriously, and give them 100s of dollars to teach us 16th century battlefield tactics.

You might as well call MMA "Modern Martial Arts".

 

[ballen0351]

I have to call them out on their nonsense. .

Why? Who made you the keeper of the Fighting World

 

[Hanzou]

Why? Who made you the keeper of the Fighting World

I have my reasons....

The point is, many TMA schools use that "no competition" label as a shield to protect their style from objective scrutiny. Take Aikido for example. Though Aikido is a pretty modern art, it teaches things in a pretty traditional way. Often lacking aliveness, or any sense of true resistance. So what happens when an Aikidoka goes up against a Judoka?

This happens;

or this against wrestling;

And its a direct result of how the Aikidoka trains.