MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

In Goju technically we don't have 'horse stance'. We have Shiko dachi which is a wide low stance with the feet turned out. We use it all the time to utilise body weight for choking, strangling and takedowns. (Obviously DD and I have learned similar skills from our TMA training. What a strange coincidence.) It is used in front or behind your opponent. For what it's worth it is in 10 of the 12 Goju kata so the old guys must have thought it was worth teaching for some strange reason. I prefer my chokes to be performed standing up. That way if old mate has friends I can keep him between me and them. I would like to see how I could use boxer stance to take any one down, unless of course is was a gimme.

The Muay Thai clinch from which numerous chokes and takedowns can be utilized, all while in a boxer stance. Here's one example;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QpwUXBdbrjU#t=152

 

[Hanzou]

Those are the same things.

Please explain what stances those karateka were switching into as they moved across the mat in that first video.

The boxer's stances looked an awful lot like a horse riding stance to me.

Except is doesn't. Boxers would never be in horse riding stance because its too square, gives up too much reach, and lacks mobility.

 

[K-man]

The Muay Thai clinch from which numerous chokes and takedowns can be utilized, all while in a boxer stance. Here's one example;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QpwUXBdbrjU#t=152

Two things. As an example of footwork, you can't see the feet at all. And this stance is nothing like the 'boxer' stance you showed a few posts back. It is exactly like our TMA natural fighting stance. The take down is similar to what we would do using Sanchin dachi, so what's the big deal? What you have shown, apart from the actual clinch is almost exactly what we do in TMA.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Please explain what stances those karateka were switching into as they moved across the mat in that first video..

Once again you are using one video of one aspect to try to explain all aspects. Footwork also includes staying in one stance and moving in different directions i.e the foot is doing work.

Except is doesn't. Boxers would never be in horse riding stance because its too square, gives up too much reach, and lacks mobility.

It's not square if you stand side on. A horse riding stance is designed for situations where you need stability, not mobility.Boxers need to remain mobile at all times because if the stand still for too long the referee will separate them.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And again, I'm talking about footwork, not transitioning between stances.

Examples:

Karate footwork;
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAzyQ-aGps&desktop_uri=/watch?v=dMAzyQ-aGps

Boximg Footwork;
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdN6CV2NVc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=jmdN6CV2NVc


Notice they maintain the same stance throughout.

in either case, the boxer displays superior and more active footwork than the Karatekas. In fighting, footwork is more important than learning several stances you're never going to use.

In this forum you have been comparing apples to oranges, now you are comparing oranges to different oranges.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Great video about separating realism from the fantasy in the martial arts;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oy4TwtoDs50#t=468

The guy in the video just sounds like someone who does not understand the first thing about traditional martial arts training.

 

[Hanzou]

Once again you are using one video of one aspect to try to explain all aspects. Footwork also includes staying in one stance and moving in different directions i.e the foot is doing work.

Read my post again. I'm talking about footwork, not stance transitioning. I'm also pointing out that learning 10-12 stances when you only use 1 is a pretty dumb way to train. Boxers do it better.

It's not square if you stand side on. A horse riding stance is designed for situations where you need stability, not mobility.Boxers need to remain mobile at all times because if the stand still for too long the referee will separate them.

Boxer stances have stability, and mobility. Again, its why when people fight, they all jump right into a similar stance.

Two things. As an example of footwork, you can't see the feet at all. And this stance is nothing like the 'boxer' stance you showed a few posts back. It is exactly like our TMA natural fighting stance. The take down is similar to what we would do using Sanchin dachi, so what's the big deal? What you have shown, apart from the actual clinch is almost exactly what we do in TMA.

You just asked that you would like to see a takedown done from a boxer stance. I just showed you one. Unless you actually think a kickboxer couldn't perform a muay thai clinch from a boxing stance. Standard boxers clinch all the time.

The point is this; You can do everything you need to do from the boxer stance, or the natural fighting stance. Everything else is just traditional fluff.

Here's another example. It comes from Kyokushin;

Where's the dozens of stances? They're all utilizing a boxer/natural fighting stance.

 

[K-man]

Read my post again. I'm talking about footwork, not stance transitioning. I'm also pointing out that learning 10-12 stances when you only use 1 is a pretty dumb way to train. Boxers do it better.

In terms of functional stances I teach five. One of those is pretty much your boxing stance but not as deep, one makes up distance, one is multipurpose for take down or quick movement and the other two are part of throws such as you would find in judo.

Boxer stances have stability, and mobility. Again, its why when people fight, they all jump right into a similar stance.

So what you are actually saying is that there is no practical difference here between a TMA and MMA.

You just asked that you would like to see a takedown done from a boxer stance. I just showed you one. Unless you actually think a kickboxer couldn't perform a muay thai clinch from a boxing stance. Standard boxers clinch all the time.

What garbage! The video at no stage shows the footwork on the floor. What you see is one guy standing in front of the other. Nothing at all to do with 'boxer' stance. The fact that boxers clinch proves the point that they are not just using one stance. The fact that they are not at risk of a knee to the groin means they can just stand there, unlike Muay Thai or MMA fighter or a TMA fighter.

The point is this; You can do everything you need to do from the boxer stance, or the natural fighting stance. Everything else is just traditional fluff.

Which again just demonstrates you total ignorance of what we are trying to discuss. For example you quote judo as being practical. Here is a clip of basic judo. The stance that the guy is using an 4:00 is Shiko dachi. One or the useless fluff that I teach.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=31lUAp-PIrg

And here is another. The take down at 1:13 is using Sanchin dachi. At 7:45 he's using Zenkutsu dach to facilitate a throw. At 8:49 he's using Shiko dachi. At 9:18 he's using Zenkutsu dachi to enter. Again the useless fluff I teach.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wKYGuPNdmls
Why don't judo guys just use 'boxing' stance if it is the best?

As for your Kyokushin video. There are no takedowns so of course all they are using is moto dachi. That is our basic TMA fighting stance.

So there are four of the five stances I teach in the styles that you are holding up as best.

But let's not get to carried away. You like BJJ.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V62IUmra09I
All the takedowns that don't follow to the ground I teach in TMA and the last double leg takedown looks surprisingly like Shiko dachi, but it couldn't possibly be because these guys are BJJ and they don't use TMA methods .. or maybe they do. And BTW, no sign of 'boxing' stance in the BJJ clip. Now I'm really confused.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Read my post again. I'm talking about footwork, not stance transitioning. I'm also pointing out that learning 10-12 stances when you only use 1 is a pretty dumb way to train. Boxers do it better.

Stance transitioning IS footwork. Boxing is simple and limited to only punches as attacks and does not use things like kicks, takedowns, joint locks etc, therefore it does not require many stances, that is why they only use a small number of them. You can kick a with a lot more power from a back stance than you can with a boxing stance so if you do more than just punch, then only having 1 stance would be a pretty dumb way to train, as you put it.

Boxer stances have stability, and mobility. Again, its why when people fight, they all jump right into a similar stance.

So does the basic TMA back stance, which is the stance many TMA practitioners 'jump right into' when they have to defend themselves.

 

[Hanzou]

Stance transitioning IS footwork. Boxing is simple and limited to only punches as attacks and does not use things like kicks, takedowns, joint locks etc, therefore it does not require many stances, that is why they only use a small number of them. You can kick a with a lot more power from a back stance than you can with a boxing stance so if you do more than just punch, then only having 1 stance would be a pretty dumb way to train, as you put it.

MMA utilizes the same stance, and it does far more than one thing. Judo, Bjj, and Kickboxing all use the natural stance. In all my years in boxing, Judo and Bjj, we never spent a class drilling dozens of stances. Karate, Kung Fu, TKD on the other hand......

So does the basic TMA back stance, which is the stance many TMA practitioners 'jump right into' when they have to defend themselves.

I know. My point is why waste time learning the other stances when you can do everything from that one stance? No one is going to be fighting in Cat Stance for example.

 

[ballen0351]

I do believe that I said my goal is to get them to the ground and control them once they're there.

No I do believe you said your goal was to take them down and choke them out because thats more humane.

If that means choking them out, pinning them down, or kicking them in the face, that's what I'm going to do.

Good your learning something here.

Throwing or knocking someone to the ground is far more efficient than trying to beat them into the ground using strikes.

Its not about getting them on the ground. Its about getting away or ending the threat by any means you can.

See that video of the cop brawling with that thug for reference. A simple throw into control (lock/pin from standing position) would have ended that confrontation right then and there.

1st hes not a cop hes a security guard, 2nd he had no intention of controlling the confrontation, he wanted to throw blows. That was his desire and that was what he did.

We train in gi and no gi for both throws and grappling. Throwing someone onto a street surface while training is unnecessary, and a pretty huge liability for the school. However, I wouldn't be surprised if some people tried it outside of school to test their ukemi.

Dont need to throw people into the street but you do need try things out doors on different surfaces with different clothing. For example Im a cop and I also train in Judo, there are several throws I wont use in uniform because the gun belt, gun position, radio cord,ect. I know this because Ive tried it. if you have never tried to complete a throw on gravel in shoes its alot harder then in the dojo.

Bjj, Judo, Boxing, Aikido, wrestling, Goju, all have pluses and minuses and can all be used in different situations. There is no perfect system. Each is effective in what it was designed to do.

 

[K-man]

I know. My point is why waste time learning the other stances when you can do everything from that one stance? No one is going to be fighting in Cat Stance for example.

Oh dear! Wrong again! You really need to do some research. People might get the impression you know nothing about TMA if you keep this up.
Gogen Yamaguchi was known for fighting out of cat stance. When I did fight in tournaments my front kick from cat stance won me more points than any other technique. I was a bit older than my contemporaries so I let them jump around and come to me rather than chase them. Cat stance was great for that. Now that I'm out of that scene I teach neko as a technique to use against taller opponents and the perfect platform to move quickly in any direction. There you go, now you have all five 'fluff' stances I teach. They all have their uses in reality based self defence and you were obviously not shown any of them with their application. I'm not sure where all the 'dozens' of stances you are talking about are taught. Certainly nowhere I have been.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My point is why waste time learning the other stances when you can do everything from that one stance? No one is going to be fighting in Cat Stance for example.

Again, you may only look at this from a "striker" point of view. In order to apply a proper "hip throw", your 1st landing step has to be a "cat stance". If you have your leading foot landing flat, your opponent can sweep you.

 

[Hanzou]

No I do believe you said your goal was to take them down and choke them out because thats more humane.

Ideally, yes.

Its not about getting them on the ground. Its about getting away or ending the threat by any means you can.

Of course it is, and getting them on the ground is the fastest way to end the threat.

1st hes not a cop hes a security guard, 2nd he had no intention of controlling the confrontation, he wanted to throw blows. That was his desire and that was what he did.

I'm pretty sure his intention was to knock the guy out.

Dont need to throw people into the street but you do need try things out doors on different surfaces with different clothing. For example Im a cop and I also train in Judo, there are several throws I wont use in uniform because the gun belt, gun position, radio cord,ect. I know this because Ive tried it. if you have never tried to complete a throw on gravel in shoes its alot harder then in the dojo.

Bjj, Judo, Boxing, Aikido, wrestling, Goju, all have pluses and minuses and can all be used in different situations. There is no perfect system. Each is effective in what it was designed to do.

Which is why I do mixed martial arts.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, you may only look at this from a "striker" point of view. In order to apply a proper "hip throw", your 1st landing step has to be a "cat stance". If you have your leading foot landing flat, your opponent can sweep you.

Where exactly is the cat stance being used when executing a "proper" hip throw?

or

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Where exactly is the cat stance being used when executing a "proper" hip throw?

or

In the 1st clip at 0.09 and 2nd clip at 0.11, when he lands his right foot, he should land on his toes first to avoid being swept. To commit 100% on that forward stepping is not a good idea. When you use "cat stance", you can divide your commitment in 2 steps, cat stance (not committed), and full foot landing (committed). It's much safer this way.

In the following solo drill,

it's easy to see that

- cat stance (0% weight on the leading foot),
- 4-6 stance (40% weight on the leading foot), and
- horse stance (50% weight on each foot),

are the building blocks for the most basic "hip throw" (the mother of all throws). A simple boxing stance is just not enough for the throwing art that you train.

If a student doesn't understand the basic stances, how can you teach him the detail of your throwing art? Without understanding the weight distribution, it's very difficult to learn the throwing art. I assume we both agree that the throwing art is more than just "pull guard" and "jump guard".

 

[Dirty Dog]

Except is doesn't. Boxers would never be in horse riding stance because its too square, gives up too much reach, and lacks mobility.

Ahhh, more ignorance. Where did you get the patently false idea that horseriding stance is only used facing an opponent.? As early as Kicho 3, (BASIC form 3...) it's taught side-on to the opponent.
Stances, as taught in TMA, are fluid and flexible. Once again, the problem is your lack of understanding.

 

[ballen0351]

Ideally, yes.

Nothing ideal about getting on the ground and choking someone in a real fight.

Of course it is, and getting them on the ground is the fastest way to end the threat.

Sometimes. Sometimes its just better to hit and run

I'm pretty sure his intention was to knock the guy out.

Right so wjybdo you keep trying to use it as an example of poor grappling when Ive told you all along he had no intention of grappling. Thats like saying its a poor examole of marksmanship beacuse he didnt shoot him.

 

[Hanzou]

In the 1st clip at 0.09 and 2nd clip at 0.11, when he lands his right foot, he should land on his toes first to avoid being swept. To commit 100% on that forward stepping is not a good idea. When you use "cat stance", you can divide your commitment in 2 steps, cat stance (not committed), and full foot landing (committed). It's much safer this way.

In the following solo drill,

it's easy to see that

- cat stance (0% weight on the leading foot),
- 4-6 stance (40% weight on the leading foot), and
- horse stance (50% weight on each foot),

Sorry, but I put a bit more faith behind the technique of a Judoka that's actually throwing someone, than a Kung Fu guy waving his hands around in the air.

are the building blocks for the most basic "hip throw" (the mother of all throws). A simple boxing stance is just not enough for the throwing art that you train.

Ronda Rousey did exactly that around the 3:25 mark in this video;

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xp82n1_miesha-tate-vs-ronda-rousey-full-fight-hd_sport

If a student doesn't understand the basic stances, how can you teach him the detail of your throwing art? Without understanding the weight distribution, it's very difficult to learn the throwing art. I assume we both agree that the throwing art is more than just "pull guard" and "jump guard".

Judoka have been learning to throw without learning "cat stances" or "horse stances" for well over a century, and have been doing just fine.

 

[Hanzou]

Ahhh, more ignorance. Where did you get the patently false idea that horseriding stance is only used facing an opponent.? As early as Kicho 3, (BASIC form 3...) it's taught side-on to the opponent.
Stances, as taught in TMA, are fluid and flexible. Once again, the problem is your lack of understanding.

So fluid.... :lol: