MMA vs TMA

[ballen0351]

When did random you tube clips of random people become proof of anything?

 

[Hanzou]

When did random you tube clips of random people become proof of anything?

It's proof that traditional arts aren't teaching fluid or flexible stance work. It also backs up my point that people aren't cycling through several stances while fighting. They're using a natural stance while slapping each other with their terrible hand techniques.

 

[ballen0351]

It's proof that traditional arts aren't teaching fluid or flexible stance work. It also backs up my point that people aren't cycling through several stances while fighting. They're using a natural stance while slapping each other with their terrible hand techniques.

How do you know? do you know what these guys are taught? just because its on you tube and its got a title doesnt mean anything

this guys claims to be a master too:

 

[ballen0351]

It's proof that traditional arts aren't teaching fluid or flexible stance work. It also backs up my point that people aren't cycling through several stances while fighting. They're using a natural stance while slapping each other with their terrible hand techniques.

You cycle through stances in Judo even if they dont name them and go over them in great detail. I see several of my Goju stances in my Judo.

 

[Tames D]

This thread is a train wreck!

 

[K-man]

It's proof that traditional arts aren't teaching fluid or flexible stance work. It also backs up my point that people aren't cycling through several stances while fighting. They're using a natural stance while slapping each other with their terrible hand techniques.

But it is also proof that you don't even know what you are looking at. All you have shown is basically sport sparring. In particular the Shotokan guys are not even using a natural stance. That is not TMA. In TMA you enter and engage and don't disengage until it's over. In that way it is no different to what you would see in your MMA contest. Your grappler is going to come in, engage and throw or take down his opponent. The only difference with the TMA is I don't want to be on the ground as well. What you don't seem to be able to comprehend, or you are being deliberately stupid and just trolling, is that the stances we are discussing are not stances you use when you are jumping up and down and waving hands and feet at each other like the sport sparring videos you have posted. You use the stances when you have hold of your opponent to throw him to the ground or get him into a position for a choke.

You have dragged this thread out by 20 pages with your ridiculous posts that you keep repeating even though those amongst us that actually train TMA tell you are BS. You have no experience of TMA, you have no knowledge of TMA yet you keep posting drivel that continues to demonstrate that total lack of knowledge.

 

[Hanzou]

You cycle through stances in Judo even if they dont name them and go over them in great detail. I see several of my Goju stances in my Judo.

So then Judo has the superior method. You're not wasting large amounts of class time drilling pointless stances. You're spending class time drilling actual throws.

 

[ballen0351]

So then Judo has the superior method. You're not wasting large amounts of class time drilling pointless stances. You're spending class time drilling actual throws.

There not pointless if your doing them. My judo class does talk about the stances. Yours doesn't. Maybe your teacher just doesn't know. It all starts with the basics. Basic stances and rooting. Just because you don't understand it or your teacher doesn't know it doesn't mean its pointless

 

[MJS]

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-do-judo-stances

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070103083145AAuHapk

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/bent-over-stance-bjj-2173121/

When people hear 'stance' it seems that some, well, at least 1 person here, thinks that it's stationary, with no movement. In reality, a stance is simply a quick transition. Oh sure, in the Kenpo and Kyokushin that I train, there are static stances, that we use to train kata, punches, kicks, etc., however, even during sparring, we see stances. One drill that we worked on one night, was transitioning into a slight cat stance, while throwing a lead leg front kick to the stomach. We then went on to spar, where a number of the people in the class, made this work with ease.

Oh and I agree with Tames D...the train crash quite a few pages ago.

 

[Koshiki]

Well. think about the nemesis of TMA practitioners; Wrestlers and Boxers. During my Karate days, most of my peers considered beating a boxer or a wrestler to be the ultimate showcase of the effectiveness of our styles. That says something, because it immediately implies that our TMA is inherently inferior to boxing and wrestling, and frankly for the most part it was.

Not because of the art itself, but how we practiced it. A boxer is in the ring hitting an opponent, or outside the ring hitting a heavy bag or jumping rope. Meanwhile, we're in our dojo hitting empty air and doing katas. The boxer has 5 punches they perfect, and we have hundreds that we have to cycle through. Most boxers are lean, and in shape, while most of us were flabby and out of shape. So when it came time to spar against a boxer, the outcome wasn't surprising. Wrestling is no different.

I don't believe that TMAs are all that effective. Swinging a sword around or doing katas/forms isn't going to prepare you for that 250lb gorilla trying to bring pain down upon you. The martial sports are simply better. Why? Because the martial sports get you in better shape, are highly competitive, are highly combative, and cross train constantly. For example, Anderson Silva's domination in MMA made more people check out Muay Thai kickboxing. Rhonda Rousey's success has gotten people to check out Judo.

People who practice MMA have nothing against TMA styles, as long as they're proven. Judo and Muay Thai are as old as many Kung Fu styles, Aikido, and Bujinkan Ninjutsu. The problem is when the latter starts saying that they're too "deadly" for the ring, or forbid their students from cross-training, MMA folks start rolling their eyes. If you can't fight in the ring with rules and safety, you're not going to be able to fight in the street where there are no rules or safety. When your sensei or sifu doesn't want you training at the local BJJ gym, something's wrong.

I dropped out of this thread, but I'll jump back in for a second. This is where Hanzou started out. Basically, I think most any of us would agree with him at this point. He says, basically;
1. Traditional Arts may teach great techniques and theories and practices, but there is a tendency to neglect fitness in many cases. This is bad. Competitive Martial Sports can NOT be out of shape, or they will lose.
2. Sword forms are probably not the most practical way to learn self-defense.
3. Kata doesn't train self-defense.
4. Sport Martial Arts are forced to evolve to contain the changing rules and techniques of the game.

1. Definitely true of many schools. I might even say most non-sport schools tend to focus more on skill and technique than physical fitness, while the opposite is true of many sport competitors.
2. Probably true, too. Unless you routinely carry a three foot edged hunk of steel with you, or are likely to be able to grab one in a split second... Then again, I work at a grocery store where I have a 14" blade machete/melon knife at hand almost all the time, so maybe I should learn more machete self-defense!
3. Shows a complete lack of knowledge of how kata/bunkai/application function, but I would say is typical of a good deal of schools claiming traditional martial art lineage.
4. Inarguabley true.

What Hanzou starts out saying, is that there are a lot of "TMA" schools that don't understand or teach "TMA" as the ore traditional "TMA" schools do. I agree. I think most of the rest of us do as well. From there, the conversation quickly degenerates into a desperate attempt to resist and keep claiming that traditional methods are useless.

However, let's remember that the conversation started at some fairly common ground, which most of us acknowledge *is* very definitely a problem among "traditional" martial schools. There are many schools that I would not call McDojos, that I believe really believe they are teaching effective combative principles and training, but that are producing people who train kata mindlessly in the air with no attempt to develop the technique within, and who do tag-sparring, and think that the two will somehow mesh and form a complete, effective fighter. This clearly is NOT the traditional mindset, but we can see how Hanzou got might think it to be, especially with limited or poor experience in TKD, "kung fu", and the several other styles he has extensive experience with...

 

[Koshiki]

When people hear 'stance' it seems that some, well, at least 1 person here, thinks that it's stationary, with no movement. In reality, a stance is simply a quick transition. Oh sure, in the Kenpo and Kyokushin that I train, there are static stances, that we use to train kata, punches, kicks, etc., however, even during sparring, we see stances. One drill that we worked on one night, was transitioning into a slight cat stance, while throwing a lead leg front kick to the stomach. We then went on to spar, where a number of the people in the class, made this work with ease.

There are some FMA guys that we see a few times a year. They always mention how they don't do stances, how their footwork is fluid, and how the Japanese/Korean/Chinese Martial arts DO do these static stances. They always say, "In the Philippines, there is no such thing as a static stance." Yet, neither is there in any of the applied Karate/Taekwondo I have done. Stances, yes. Static ones, no, not for more than a fraction of a second at the end of a linear strike, perhaps. But it is still a prevailing mindset, which I think many people in Traditional Martial Arts hold as well as those without. Again, Hanzou clearly has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to stance-work, but I can see WHY it is that he assumes what he does. There are many who DO practice static stances and assume that they are a viable option.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'm pretty sure his intention was to knock the guy out.

We wasn't very good at it then.

 

[RTKDCMB]

This thread is a train wreck!

And we know who the driver is.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Just popping back in to clarify something:

Static stances do have their uses; in the Kung Fu styles I've trained in they are used for developing leg strength, balance and in some cases static-active flexibility. In application, very few of these stances will be used for more than a second. Having a good, strong root in TMA is important.

 

[MJS]

There are some FMA guys that we see a few times a year. They always mention how they don't do stances, how their footwork is fluid, and how the Japanese/Korean/Chinese Martial arts DO do these static stances. They always say, "In the Philippines, there is no such thing as a static stance." Yet, neither is there in any of the applied Karate/Taekwondo I have done. Stances, yes. Static ones, no, not for more than a fraction of a second at the end of a linear strike, perhaps. But it is still a prevailing mindset, which I think many people in Traditional Martial Arts hold as well as those without. Again, Hanzou clearly has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to stance-work, but I can see WHY it is that he assumes what he does. There are many who DO practice static stances and assume that they are a viable option.

I've seen many schools teaching static. For example...my Kyokushin dojo, we'll do our blocks and hand strikes, from a static stance (sanchin dachi). Of course, we also do them while moving. As for the FMAs...the Modern Arnis that I do, has stances. You can see the list of them here:
http://www.modernarnis.net/ranking/level2.shtml

So, yes, when a new student is learning something for the first time, it's done slow and somewhat static. Of course, once they get the idea, then movement is added. IMO, things need to be done slow at first, even in the grappling arts, in order to get the basics/foundation down pat, and then, movement is gradually added.

 

[Koshiki]

Static stances do have their uses; in the Kung Fu styles I've trained in they are used for developing leg strength, balance and in some cases static-active flexibility. In application, very few of these stances will be used for more than a second. Having a good, strong root in TMA is important.

Agreed. Oh, definitely. I think even Hanzou has alluded to traditional martial arts formal work being great for things like balance, flexibility, etc. He just seems to think that they do not occur in application, because they occur too swiftly and smoothly for him to be able to notice them. He thinks we use horse stance the same way as a base from which movement comes, not as a position which is integral to the motion-structure of many fluid movements. I *think* hanzou agrees that the ability to hold a deep, strong horse stance is great in terms of general athleticism, just not in terms of martial application, yes?

 

[MJS]

I dropped out of this thread, but I'll jump back in for a second. This is where Hanzou started out. Basically, I think most any of us would agree with him at this point. He says, basically;
1. Traditional Arts may teach great techniques and theories and practices, but there is a tendency to neglect fitness in many cases. This is bad. Competitive Martial Sports can NOT be out of shape, or they will lose.
2. Sword forms are probably not the most practical way to learn self-defense.
3. Kata doesn't train self-defense.
4. Sport Martial Arts are forced to evolve to contain the changing rules and techniques of the game.

1. Definitely true of many schools. I might even say most non-sport schools tend to focus more on skill and technique than physical fitness, while the opposite is true of many sport competitors.
2. Probably true, too. Unless you routinely carry a three foot edged hunk of steel with you, or are likely to be able to grab one in a split second... Then again, I work at a grocery store where I have a 14" blade machete/melon knife at hand almost all the time, so maybe I should learn more machete self-defense!
3. Shows a complete lack of knowledge of how kata/bunkai/application function, but I would say is typical of a good deal of schools claiming traditional martial art lineage.
4. Inarguabley true.

What Hanzou starts out saying, is that there are a lot of "TMA" schools that don't understand or teach "TMA" as the ore traditional "TMA" schools do. I agree. I think most of the rest of us do as well. From there, the conversation quickly degenerates into a desperate attempt to resist and keep claiming that traditional methods are useless.

However, let's remember that the conversation started at some fairly common ground, which most of us acknowledge *is* very definitely a problem among "traditional" martial schools. There are many schools that I would not call McDojos, that I believe really believe they are teaching effective combative principles and training, but that are producing people who train kata mindlessly in the air with no attempt to develop the technique within, and who do tag-sparring, and think that the two will somehow mesh and form a complete, effective fighter. This clearly is NOT the traditional mindset, but we can see how Hanzou got might think it to be, especially with limited or poor experience in TKD, "kung fu", and the several other styles he has extensive experience with...

1) IMO, being fit is important. No, I'm not saying people have to look like Arnold, but when you see some MAists out there...well, it has me shaking my head.

2) Agreed. Of course, as we know, some TMAs practice things, that seem non practical to some, yet there is some historical/traditional meaning behind it. Of course, if someone chooses to do this, nothing wrong with it, IMO. Of course, some things can be translated to a different weapon, ie: a bo with a broom handle.

3) Agreed 100%!!! I've been at my share of schools, and while doing kata, I asked about what the moves were doing, what they were for, why we were doing them, and was told, "Well.....because that's the way the kata is done." Doesn't sound like a good breakdown of the movements to me. LOL! Fortunately, I explored things myself, as well as with others who were able to give an explaination. At my current dojo, my teacher explains as well as shows, what the moves do.

4) Yup.

So, in a nutshell, there are poor schools out there, and there are very good schools out there. IMO, it's up to the individual to find the right one. Not all schools are the same.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Static stances do have their uses;

It's not difficult to see that the following stance

http://imageshack.us/a/img718/3319/chang13tb.jpg

can help you to "polish" your "leg lift" throw (Uchi Mata).

http://imageshack.us/a/img831/4315/linleglift.jpg

and "leg block" throw (O Guruma).

http://imageshack.us/a/img19/3762/johnleglift.jpg

The static stances can help you to push yourself much harder than the true application can. If your body can't feel comfortable to be in certain shape, you just can't do certain techniques well.

 

[Hanzou]

There not pointless if your doing them. My judo class does talk about the stances. Yours doesn't. Maybe your teacher just doesn't know. It all starts with the basics. Basic stances and rooting. Just because you don't understand it or your teacher doesn't know it doesn't mean its pointless

My Judo class also talk about stances. However, we don't sit in cat stance or horse stance for several minutes perfecting our stance, we discuss the proper stance while we're performing the action. So if I'm doing a throw, my instructor will correct my posture as I perform the throw. This is done so when mastered, the movement is smooth and fluid. You can also "feel" it, because if your movement isn't correct, the throw will be more difficult to perform. The better the technique, the easier the throw becomes.

If we learned 10 different stances, and then attempted to break down those stances into steps in a throw, it would be a cumbersome mess. Whenever I go up against a Karateka, TKD, or Kung Fu exponent, their throws and takedowns are pretty non existent. You also get two types; The ones who stick in one spot like a giant target, or the kind that bounce around.

Both types are easy to take down.

 

[Hanzou]

But it is also proof that you don't even know what you are looking at. All you have shown is basically sport sparring. In particular the Shotokan guys are not even using a natural stance. That is not TMA. In TMA you enter and engage and don't disengage until it's over. In that way it is no different to what you would see in your MMA contest. Your grappler is going to come in, engage and throw or take down his opponent. The only difference with the TMA is I don't want to be on the ground as well. What you don't seem to be able to comprehend, or you are being deliberately stupid and just trolling, is that the stances we are discussing are not stances you use when you are jumping up and down and waving hands and feet at each other like the sport sparring videos you have posted. You use the stances when you have hold of your opponent to throw him to the ground or get him into a position for a choke.

You have dragged this thread out by 20 pages with your ridiculous posts that you keep repeating even though those amongst us that actually train TMA tell you are BS. You have no experience of TMA, you have no knowledge of TMA yet you keep posting drivel that continues to demonstrate that total lack of knowledge.

Did you miss the parts where I showed that you can perform all of those throws from a natural or boxer stance?

The majority of MMA fighters blend kickboxing/boxing and wrestling/judo/Bjj incredibly well.

Again, its the simple fact that you have one side that is obsolete, and another side that is dynamic and ever-changing.

For example, watch this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSX0PCQXiO4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUsUbFOUqtrU4oRSDfjb78ig

That head movement and evasion comes form boxing. Which is superior for self defense? That level of evasion and defense, or the archiac blocking and static stances of traditional MA?