MMA vs TMA

[ballen0351]

By the way the dude is Japanese and trains out of Florida He was born in Brazil but his parents are Japanese and at the time of this fight in the clip he was a blue belt in BJJ had no judo training and is a black belt in Karate. So really hurts your Judo is the best thing since sliced bread that a karate blackbelt and BJJ blue belt kicked his butt

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou reading your posts, im getting the impression that you feel that anyone in a tradional tma be it a strike centric one or not, should just quit and join a bjj/judo gym. Do you honestly expect people to just drop something they have large amounts of there lives doing, just to do something that is perceived as superior? Weather you want to admit it or not but bjj is only effective in the cage/mat. It is not the priemier street defense art. Why on earth would you want to go to ground on the street? How in gods name would you deal with multiple assailants when in guard on the ground? You cant. Nor does bjj address weapons defense.

I don't really understand why your on this forum. Only thing your accomplishing is angering members and spouting ignorant nonsense. I honestly expected to see a thread on sherdog, bragging of the poop storm your stirring up here, but alas there isn't one there. We all know that the members of sherdog love to hate on TMA.

Good lord, one person there, told me TMA have been conning people out of money for the last 70 years. Taking there cash and teaching them choreographed nonsense.. Yet I don't see a brag thread on sherdog. So whats your game? What are you trying to achieve by stirring the nest here? Do you really want the thousands of active memebers in tma here, to just drop there arts, and start doing judo/bjj?

Actually, everyone dropping their arts and picking up Bjj/Judo is the exact opposite of what I would like people around here to do.

 

[Hanzou]

By the way the dude is Japanese and trains out of Florida He was born in Brazil but his parents are Japanese and at the time of this fight in the clip he was a blue belt in BJJ had no judo training and is a black belt in Karate. So really hurts your Judo is the best thing since sliced bread that a karate blackbelt and BJJ blue belt kicked his butt

Where did I say that Judo was the best thing since sliced bread?

Like I said, Bjj cross-training, and considering that it takes on average about 2-3 years to get a blue belt in Bjj, he's been doing it for awhile. I know a Bjj ground game when I see one.

To be fair to the Judoka, Bjj is quite a bit stronger on the ground than Judo, and a blue belt in Bjj is the equivalent of upper belts in other martial arts. As stated before, the Judoka got beat at his own game.

 

[ballen0351]

Actually that fight was from 2008 he wasn't even a blue belt yet. After looking more into it.

Where did I say that Judo was the best thing since sliced bread?

Like I said, Bjj cross-training, and considering that it takes on average about 2-3 years to get a blue belt in Bjj, he's been doing it for awhile. I know a Bjj ground game when I see one.

To be fair to the Judoka, Bjj is quite a bit stronger on the ground than Judo, and a blue belt in Bjj is the equivalent of upper belts in other martial arts. As stated before, the Judoka got beat at his own game.

 

[ballen0351]

Oh and the Guy he fought wasn't some judo bum

Yoon was a well-known judoka with over 50 international judo competitions under his belt and had a winning streak of 47 straight victories without conceding a single koka, with notable wins over World champions and Olympic gold-medalists

Doesnt look well for your judo is amazing and kicks karate trainings butt

 

[Hanzou]

Oh and the Guy he fought wasn't some judo bum

Doesnt look well for your judo is amazing and kicks karate trainings butt

Considering that he cross trained in Bjj and kickboxing, I think its safe to say that MMA kicked Judo's butt in this case.

Also we are talking about Kyokushin, probably the most MMA friendly karate in existence. If we were talking about Goju-Ryu or Shuri-te, you'd have a point here.

Actually that fight was from 2008 he wasn't even a blue belt yet. After looking more into it.

That really doesn't mean anything. It can take years to get from blue to purple, even if you compete. The way he schooled that Judoka, he was intermediate level at the very least.

 

[ballen0351]

Really so how much Goju do you know to make a statement like that? You must be an expert in it

What other arts you plan on bashing in one thread. So far I've seen kung fu ninjitsu goju TKD TMA. Aikido. Any others?

 

[jks9199]

All right, folks, let's rein things in quite a bit. In the last 2 pages, I've seen borderline challenge posts, style bashing, and insults lobbed. It's bad enough that I'm bending our policy and addressing it officially, even though I've participated in the this thread.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator

 

[K-man]

Check out that awesome Goju Ryu stance transitioning, footwork and head movement.

Tut, tut. Sarcasm is not your strong suit.

Some of that black belt sparring..... :lol:

Lol! As the quote erroneously attributed to Einstein goes, 'the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius is limited. By not listening to what is being said you have one again demonstrated your ignorance in TMA. What you have posted here are three examples of the Japanese version of Goju which is no more traditional than Kyokushin. In the third video they even have the Goju Kai badge. Basically it is a sport based style that I trained for many years before switching to the traditional Okinawan style of Goju.

But let's look at what you actually posted. All three are examples of Awasse Kumite or slow sparring. It is designed to allow you opponent to probe your defence and vice versa. It is the type of training you build on if you want to go into tournaments. The first video is classic. You have one kid with about three months experience (9th Kyu) and the other one (6th Kyu) with about 12 months training performing slow sparring to build experience and confidence. I have no issue with the standard of their work for their level, keeping in mind the fact that the the 6th Kyu is sparring at the beginner's level.

The second video is of the same ilk albeit at a higher level and even slower. There are no transitional stances because they are not training the grappling elements. I know this is a difficult concept for you to grasp but they are not performing anything that is TMA. The are demonstrating sport based kumite.

The third video is same, same, but a little faster. How many real fights go three minutes? They are training and if either of them were in a pub brawl I would back either of them to be effective.

But you are totally ignorant of what is traditional karate. Here, I am being specific to karate and in this case Goju karate. This is my type of training. Straight from the Jundokan.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UttTa7hGYqA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=UttTa7hGYqA

And, it is half paced. Taira is faster than a cut snake in real life.

Oh, I forgot to mention, what he is demonstrating is straight from that useless kata.

 

[K-man]

To be fair, just about everything is better than TKD. :lol:

I would have thought that was style bashing!

And this is why I resort to youtube videos. People can spew whatever make-believe stuff they want on the internet.

As you have been doing ever since you have graced us with your presence on this forum.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The point is, many TMA schools use that "no competition" label as a shield to protect their style from objective scrutiny.

TMA such as the "Shuai Jiao (Chinese wrestling)" system had used the "sport" format long before the MMA or BJJ was even born.

http://imageshack.us/a/img806/6752/shanpuyin4.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img232/5288/shanpuyin1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img849/3119/changtournament1.jpg

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDYzNzQyMjQw.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDUzNzY0NzQ4.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDUzNzUzMTUy.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDUzODIyNjQw.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDUzODI4Mzc2.html

 

[K-man]

I said cycling through dozens of stances you never use is pointless. How many people are going to be fighting in Front Stance, Cat Stance, or that low Kung Fu stance for example?

Hyperbole! There are not dozens of stances. Stances that are trained have specific application. Obviously you were never taught the applications.

In Judo the basics are the motions and proper posture during execution. Its not the same thing as standing in a stance for several minutes, then switching to the opposite side for several more minutes. All the while, when you begin free sparring, you're in a different stance altogether.

Hyperbole! I have never seen any training where anyone stands in one stance for one minute, let alone several minutes.

Again, the fundamentals are taught within execution. They aren't taught in isolation. So when its time for me to actually execute a throw, my mind is replicating the body motion, not the stance I'm supposed to be in to properly execute the throw.

Against a trained opponent you need technical proficiency. That includes proper stance.

Just my experience. I've seemed to have missed all of these amazing TMA practitioners.

Mate, it seems you've missed everything!

Kyokushin is not a TMA. It was founded in 1964, places a pretty high value on competition, and it forms the basis of most Japanese kickboxing.

Nor is Goju Kai yet you posted it as a TMA. Kyokushin is actually more like Goju Kai than Shotokan. Mas Oyama crossed to Goju Kai because the kumite was stronger there.

Its not the same thing though. When I'm learning positioning, I'm learning its application at the same time, and that application is exactly how I would use it in a self defense situation.

All that means is that there are different training methodologies.

When I did Karate and TKD before that, we were kicking and punching from every stance. Reverse punching from a front stance isn't very practical. When it came time to spar, our bodies instinctively returned to a more natural fighting posture. However, while training, we were still doing those awkward stances, and forced to hold those awkward stances until it was correct. This practice also stretched into the katas, which taught us more awkward stances and movements.

Your karate (Shotokan) and TKD are not traditional in the sense we are discussing. What you were doing punching from every stance is not traditional. It may be training for a purpose but I never teach punching from those stances in traditional Goju. All our punching is from a natural fighting stance.

When I started practicing kickboxing, everything was practiced from the natural fighting posture.

So there is no difference.

[/COLOR]

You think you're going to be fighting a bunch of black belts or prize fighters if you get into a fight on the street? :lol:

Which is exactly why TMAs don't have to be tested in the ring. We are not training to fight black belts or prize fighters. We are training for fun, for fitness and to get the skills to defend ourselves in the unlikely event we will be be attacked on the street.

I'm okay with every martial art. I just believe that some waste their time doing pointless things that bog down the training process. Kyokushin is guilty of that since it has the trappings of a lot of traditional karate styles.

Not what you have been saying. You have caned every style except BJJ at some stage including Judo and Kyokushin.

I'm not criticizing the pace, I'm criticizing the purpose. Why are you learning techniques that have little to no practical value? Why are you going through all of this traditional nonsense when the end result has you fighting like a crippled kickboxer with bad footwork and hand skills?

Again, it is your ignorance of the techniques. My criteria for teaching is this. If you wouldn't use it in the pub I don't teach it. For example I no longer teach high kicks. They are in Japanese Goju but not the Okiinawan.

The intentions are noble, but the results speak for themselves.

Ironic! What you are saying is exactly right, even though you intended it to mean the opposite.

I have my reasons....

The point is, many TMA schools use that "no competition" label as a shield to protect their style from objective scrutiny.

That is purely your opinion. Every "no competition" school I know of is that because they are not teaching to compete. My school is a 'no swimming' school. My guys come to be to learn reality based traditional karate, not compete in the ring or the swimming pool!

Take Aikido for example. Though Aikido is a pretty modern art, it teaches things in a pretty traditional way. Often lacking aliveness, or any sense of true resistance.

Ignorance or arrogance? You have never trained Aikido. I train it twice a week. Most of the time we train against total resistance which in some ways is unrealistic because in real life we would hit first. If you can make stuff work against total resistance in training without the strike, how much easier with the strike? Some of the time we train without resistance to practise reversals. There is total aliveness in our training.

So what happens when an Aikidoka goes up against a Judoka?

This happens;

or this against wrestling;

And its a direct result of how the Aikidoka trains.
OK! You have a video of an Aikidoka trying to do Judo. In every instance the Judo guy is throwing by holding the gi. None of our training does that because in real life I've never seen anyone wearing their gi in the pub. The Turkish wrestler was very good. Just because a good martial artist from one style is more skilful than someone from another means nothing in the total picture.

Would you prefer the second video where the Aikidoka shodan got smashed even faster by a wrestler?

Like I said before, I have nothing against any martial art. I actually rather like the concept behind Aikido, it is unfortunate that the concept falls short when the rubber hits the road. Also, I know that Aikido wristlocks work. The problem is (again) in the training of the art itself.

You have never trained it so how come you are suddenly the expert on it. Sure it takes a while to learn. I would say that it took me about six years to feel confident in my ability to use it a real situation. But then again, I'm obviously a slow learner.

Unfortunately I'm not 14. When I was 14 I was wasting my time doing Tae Kwon Do at a local rec center. I wish I had started Bjj at that point in my life, instead of starting it over a decade later.

And I wish I had started with traditional karate back in the 70s instead of just the last 10 years. But back then I was as oblivious to traditional RBSD as you are now.

A Karate guy who clearly cross-trained in Bjj.

Not clear at all! He has obviously cross trained in something but I thought that's what you do if you want to compete.

Did you miss the ridiculously smooth omoplata he put on the Judo guy, or the mount and take down defense? The commentators even mentioned it during the fight.
Actually, I did. And I watched it twice because I didn't see it the first time.

1. He's from Brazil. If you're a MMA fighter in Brazil, you're going to be training in Bjj.

And the MMA fighter from Turkey will train Turkish wrestling, the guy from Russia, Systema. The guy from Israel, Krav. Oh sorry, scrap the last two. Their techniques are banned from competition!

2. He performed a submission lock on a Judo black belt, and he did it with ridiculous ease?

I obviously watch the wrong video. I saw a fight that was stopped by the ref, no submission.

3. His mount defense was clear Bjj, as was his sprawl.

I teach the sprawl against takedowns in my classes. I've never trained BJJ.

4. The commentators mentioned it.

I must be going deaf!

Please show me the Omoplata in the Kyokushin or Goju curriculum. I have a black belt in Shotokan, and Kyokushin came from Shotokan. The Omoplata doesn't exist in Shotokan, and I seriously doubt it exists in Kyokushin.

And it didn't exist in that fight either!

Its important to note that had the "karate guy" not cross trained in Bjj, he would have lost that fight.

Yeah, right. And every other MMA fighter would lose if they hadn't cross trained too.

Considering that he cross trained in Bjj and kickboxing, I think its safe to say that MMA kicked Judo's butt in this case.

Crap! The judo guy had cross trained as well!

Also we are talking about Kyokushin, probably the most MMA friendly karate in existence. If we were talking about Goju-Ryu or Shuri-te, you'd have a point here.

Pardon? There are people from all styles of karate who have competed successfully in MMA. I'm not sure where the Shuri-te reference comes from. Ignorance of history probably. Shuri-te pretty much went the same way as Naha-te and Tomari-te. They all morphed into other styles.

That really doesn't mean anything. It can take years to get from blue to purple, even if you compete. The way he schooled that Judoka, he was intermediate level at the very least.

Have another try. So far if I was grading your posts I would be writing across the paper,
"2/10 ... must pay more attention to those trying to help your understanding "

 

[RTKDCMB]

You missing the point. Just because you find a random clip on you tube its not proof of anything other then that guy lost to that other guy while the camera was on. you know nothing about either ones training, back ground, the rules they set, or the reason they were even fighting.

It looked to me like the Turkish wrestler was visiting the Aikido dojo and demonstrating some of his techniques to the Aikido students.

 

[MJS]

I have no issue with that. Just know what your martial art is, and what it isn't. For example, when I see people believe that they are Ninjas, and do all that bizarre Ninja stuff, that's fine, they can do what they wish. However, when they start making claims that their art is too "deadly" to be part of the competitive MA world, I have to call them out on their nonsense. A guy who thinks he's a Ninja or a samurai is no different than a guy at a renaissance fair thinking he's a squire or a knight because he wears the armor and participates in jousting tournaments. We'd laugh at the knight wannabe, but actually take the Ninja and Samurai guy seriously, and give them 100s of dollars to teach us 16th century battlefield tactics.

You might as well call MMA "Modern Martial Arts".

Personally, if someone doesn't wish to compete, I don't think that makes the art useless. Of course, speaking for myself only, I tend to cringe a bit when I hear the 'deadly' stuff as well. Before I started Kyokushin, which I've only been doing for a bit over 2yrs, I did Kenpo. Anyone who knows about that art, should know that there are lots of breaks, pokes, etc in pretty much every tech. While these are certainly valid things to do, I also feel that since every situation we may face, might not require poking someone in the eye, that we should be able to adjust accordingly. Would I fall back on a poke to the eye? Absolutely, if it was warranted, but I'm also not going to crumble and die if I can't do that eye poke. LOL!

At the least, if someone wasn't interested in competing, I'd say that some good pressure testing with scenario training, is the next best thing. I've been doing the FMAs for quite a while. I've never competed in a Dog Bros event, however, I have done some stick sparring with one of my instructors, outside of class. I always have and always will be a big advocate of pressure testing your stuff. My point is simply that I don't feel that you have to enter a competition to do it.

As for having the need to call someone out on something...as I said, I have NO desire to police the MA world. Frankly, I wonder why there are so many out there that feel that they have to. As long as you're happy with the way you train, as long as you have no intention of training with those that appear to be less serious, then why waste time worrying about how they train or calling someone out? I've got better things to do.

 

[MJS]

I have my reasons....

The point is, many TMA schools use that "no competition" label as a shield to protect their style from objective scrutiny. Take Aikido for example. Though Aikido is a pretty modern art, it teaches things in a pretty traditional way. Often lacking aliveness, or any sense of true resistance. So what happens when an Aikidoka goes up against a Judoka?

This happens;

or this against wrestling;

And its a direct result of how the Aikidoka trains.

Like?


Again more nonsense with a random Youtube clip as your "proof". I have personally used Aikido in real life as a cop on a real bad guy and it worked perfectly. So dont tell me it doesnt work I know for a fact it does because unlike you Ive been in the real world and used techniques on real bad guys with no rules not in a cage with preset agreements on what your allowed and not allowed to do. You know nothing about the guys in this clip yet you want to use it as evidence. You see one clip as proof that every Judo player will win against every Aikidoka. You have your mind made up and thats fine. YOUR the only one that cant see through your BS. I hope for your sake your like 14 and just dont know any better yet because with your mindset your in for a rough road ahead if your ever really forced to defend yourself in a real fight and you try to use your sport rules.

I have to agree with Ballen on this. I think it's pretty funny that so many people tend to fall back on YT as the gospel of truth in the MA world. Can't really add much to what he said.

 

[MJS]

And this is why I resort to youtube videos. People can spew whatever make-believe stuff they want on the internet.

Interestingly enough, quite a few of my training partners are LEOs, COs, and one just retired after 30+yrs, working in a Psych Hospital. They have all, on more than one occasion, had to fall back on their training. They're all still alive and well today. This "If it isn't on video, then it didn't happen" BS, is just that.....BS! Sorry, not everyone walks around with a camera.

 

[MJS]

Actually, everyone dropping their arts and picking up Bjj/Judo is the exact opposite of what I would like people around here to do.

So tell me...what would you like to see people around here do exactly?

 

[K-man]

I have to agree with Ballen on this. I think it's pretty funny that so many people tend to fall back on YT as the gospel of truth in the MA world. Can't really add much to what he said.

Reminds me of a few of the others who have come to MT with inflated opinions of themselves then posted some YT video that shows they have not got the ability they claim. I look at a lot of the videos as "Look at me, aren't I good". From my POV a very good reason not to post video.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

So tell me...what would you like to see people around here do exactly?

Keep this thread running!

:feedtroll:

 

[ballen0351]

I have to agree with Ballen on this. I think it's pretty funny that so many people tend to fall back on YT as the gospel of truth in the MA world. Can't really add much to what he said.

Thats the problem with Youtube. You have no context or background info on the people in the clip. I can go film a clip tomorrow of me crushing my buddy who has like 6 classes of BJJ total in his life and title it Karate vs BJJ. And someone out there would use it as proof Karate is"better" then BJJ.