MMA vs TMA

[CNida]

Wow @ this thread.

"That escalated quickly."

Comparing MMA to TMA is not at all like comparing apples and oranges. More like comparing an apple or an orange to a bowl of assorted fruits, which also includes apples and oranges, coincidentally.

MMA is not a martial art. By its very name it is an amalgam, a unified assortment of techniques from various martial arts. MMA does not include an entirety of any martial art. If it did, it would cease to be MMA, and be "Shotokan Karate with a bit of Brazilian Jiujitsu and freestyle wrestling thrown in for flavor".

On that note... If I had to resort to choosing who I would want to back me up in a street fight, and my choices were between an elite level MMA fighter and a 3rd degree black belt in Shotokan Karate, then the answer is obvious. I would go with whoever has the most experience in street-fighting, because at the end of the day, it's not what you know that matters, but how you use it.

Just my two pennies.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[MJS]

Wow @ this thread.

"That escalated quickly."

Comparing MMA to TMA is not at all like comparing apples and oranges. More like comparing an apple or an orange to a bowl of assorted fruits, which also includes apples and oranges, coincidentally.

MMA is not a martial art. By its very name it is an amalgam, a unified assortment of techniques from various martial arts. MMA does not include an entirety of any martial art. If it did, it would cease to be MMA, and be "Shotokan Karate with a bit of Brazilian Jiujitsu and freestyle wrestling thrown in for flavor".

On that note... If I had to resort to choosing who I would want to back me up in a street fight, and my choices were between an elite level MMA fighter and a 3rd degree black belt in Shotokan Karate, then the answer is obvious. I would go with whoever has the most experience in street-fighting, because at the end of the day, it's not what you know that matters, but how you use it.

Just my two pennies.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

Nice post! I couldn't agree more with the bold part! That's something that I've said many times! Very, very true!!

 

[jks9199]

Nonsense. Sure, you can take bits and pieces from old school arts, but the majority of those old styles can't be used because they're antiquated. You see any fighter in the ring using a horse stance? You think you're ever going to see someone in the street using a horse stance on the street?

Perhaps, just perhaps, the stances aren't the end, but the means...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Nonsense. Sure, you can take bits and pieces from old school arts, but the majority of those old styles can't be used because they're antiquated. You see any fighter in the ring using a horse stance? You think you're ever going to see someone in the street using a horse stance on the street?

Ahh, I get it. The problem is you don't understand what TMA teach, or how.
In confrontations, without a ring in sight, I've been in just about every stance taught by any TMA I've had any exposure to.
Yes, I've been in a back stance (dwit seogi). Yes, I've been in a horse stance (juchum seogi). Yes, I've been in a crane stance (hakdari seogi).
And I do, in fact, see fighters in the ring using all these stances too. If you fail to recognize the stances as the fighters shift in and out of them, the fault lies with you.

Don't blame TMA for your lack of comprehension. The blame lies much closer to home.

 

[Hanzou]

Perhaps, just perhaps, the stances aren't the end, but the means...

Its a waste of time. Boxing for example teaches superior footwork without making the student cycle through several pointless stances, and its the natural fighting stance that fighters take anyway.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Its a waste of time. Boxing for example teaches superior footwork without making the student cycle through several pointless stances, and its the natural fighting stance that fighters take anyway.

The footwork you're talking about is nothing more than moving from one stance to another. Exactly as any martial artist will do in a fight.

 

[MJS]

The footwork you're talking about is nothing more than moving from one stance to another. Exactly as any martial artist will do in a fight.

Exactly! I have to laugh when people talk about stances, as if they're something static, that never changes.

 

[K-man]

The further this thread goes, the greater the demonstration of total ignorance of TMAs and the techniques they employ.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

The footwork you're talking about is nothing more than moving from one stance to another. Exactly as any martial artist will do in a fight.

Actually I'm not. Switching between stances isn't the same as moving from one point to another.

This is why you don't see traditional stances in fights. Street or competitive.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is why you don't see traditional stances in fights. Street or competitive.

The TMA throws are all built on the following 3 TMA stances:

1. horse stance - hip throw, shoulder throw, firemen's carry, ...
2. bow-arrow stance - front cut, leg block, leg spring, ...
3. golden rooster stance - knee lifting throw, ...

We should look at TMA from both striking art and grappling art point of views.

 

[jks9199]

Actually I'm not. Switching between stances isn't the same as moving from one point to another.

This is why you don't see traditional stances in fights. Street or competitive.

Stance is a positioning of the body for combat; a moment of stability and balance between steps. Steps are transitions between stances.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Actually I'm not. Switching between stances isn't the same as moving from one point to another.

This is why you don't see traditional stances in fights. Street or competitive.

So in addition to your other vast ignorances of TMA, you also think that you can't move from one point to another in TMA stances?
You continue to assert that traditional stances are not used, despite myself and others pointing out that we do, in fact, use exactly those traditional stances.
That shows two things:
1 - phenomenal ignorance.
2 - incredible arrogance.

 

[Hanzou]

Stance is a positioning of the body for combat; a moment of stability and balance between steps. Steps are transitions between stances.

And again, I'm talking about footwork, not transitioning between stances.

Examples:

Karate footwork;
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAzyQ-aGps&desktop_uri=/watch?v=dMAzyQ-aGps

Boximg Footwork;
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdN6CV2NVc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=jmdN6CV2NVc


Notice they maintain the same stance throughout.

in either case, the boxer displays superior and more active footwork than the Karatekas. In fighting, footwork is more important than learning several stances you're never going to use.

 

[Hanzou]

So in addition to your other vast ignorances of TMA, you also think that you can't move from one point to another in TMA stances?

Yeah, I never said that. *I* said that learning 10 different stances is a waste of time, and that footwork is more important. Footwork in many TMAs is pretty terrible, while footwork in boxing is superb.

You continue to assert that traditional stances are not used, despite myself and others pointing out that we do, in fact, use exactly those traditional stances.
That shows two things:
1 - phenomenal ignorance.
2 - incredible arrogance.

Where's your evidence beyond personal anecdotes?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Where's your evidence beyond personal anecdotes?

Of your ignorance? In your posts, of course.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[K-man]

Obviously I've been doing something wrong in my teaching. I say to people, "if you can't use it in a pub fight we don't train it". Can someone please tell me which of the traditional stances I shouldn't be using because I'm probably going to have to stop teaching a number of throws, take-downs and neck cranks if I can't teach the proper footwork. Now I'm happy to use the proper boxing stance because it is pretty much the same as moto dachi with a bit of tsabaki tossed in that we train anyway. Trouble with that is it only works at striking distance, not when we close the distance and use all the useless tradition stances.
:s40:

 

[Hanzou]

Obviously I've been doing something wrong in my teaching. I say to people, "if you can't use it in a pub fight we don't train it". Can someone please tell me which of the traditional stances I shouldn't be using because I'm probably going to have to stop teaching a number of throws, take-downs and neck cranks if I can't teach the proper footwork. Now I'm happy to use the proper boxing stance because it is pretty much the same as moto dachi with a bit of tsabaki tossed in that we train anyway. Trouble with that is it only works at striking distance, not when we close the distance and use all the useless tradition stances.
:s40:

You should dump all of them, and teach the boxer stance. its mobile, solid, and far more natural than the 10-20 traditional stances that most TMA teaches.

As for it only working in striking range, that's false. You can perform throws, takedowns, clinches, kicks, and punches from the boxer stance. MMA and Kickboxing has proven this for years, and its the reason why nearly every martial artist reverts to a similar stance when they're actually fighting.

Except Dirty Dog who supposedly takes down bad guys while in horse stance...

In the end, it shouldn't be about tradition, it should be about the superior method. Boxing has the superior method.

 

[pgsmith]

You should dump all of them, and teach the boxer stance. its mobile, solid, and far more natural than the 10-20 traditional stances that most TMA teaches.

As for it only working in striking range, that's false. You can perform throws, takedowns, clinches, kicks, and punches from the boxer stance. MMA and Kickboxing has proven this for years, and its the reason why nearly every martial artist reverts to a similar stance when they're actually fighting.

Except Dirty Dog who supposedly takes down bad guys while in horse stance...

In the end, it shouldn't be about tradition, it should be about the superior method. Boxing has the superior method.

I usually try and stay out of these testosterone fests, but the question just has to be asked ... how many "my life's in danger and I have to take this guy out to survive" fights have you been in Hanzou? For that matter, how many top level MMA fights have you been in? Are you basing all of your arguments upon your personal experiences, or are you simply spouting what you think is correct based on what you watch on youtube?

 

[K-man]

In Goju technically we don't have 'horse stance'. We have Shiko dachi which is a wide low stance with the feet turned out. We use it all the time to utilise body weight for choking, strangling and takedowns. (Obviously DD and I have learned similar skills from our TMA training. What a strange coincidence.) It is used in front or behind your opponent. For what it's worth it is in 10 of the 12 Goju kata so the old guys must have thought it was worth teaching for some strange reason. I prefer my chokes to be performed standing up. That way if old mate has friends I can keep him between me and them. I would like to see how I could use boxer stance to take any one down, unless of course is was a gimme.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And again, I'm talking about footwork, not transitioning between stances.

Those are the same things.

Boximg Footwork;
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdN6CV2NVc&desktop_uri=/watch?v=jmdN6CV2NVc

The boxer's stances looked an awful lot like a horse riding stance to me.