MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

If the guy is better than you at ONE thing, it sounds like you're going to lose. I might lose against a better striker, but I have enough variation in my training to at least try something else.

Grappling isn't one thing. So if someone is superior to you in all the different facets of grappling, you're more than likely going to lose.

I understand exactly what you mean. In every self defence situation you will try to make your opponent hit the ground. Good luck.

So your goal with Kung Fu isn't to knock someone out, or incapacitate them?

 

[Dinkydoo]

Grappling isn't one thing. So if someone is superior to you in all the different facets of grappling, you're more than likely going to lose.

They don't need to be far superior than yourself in every aspect of grappling. Sometimes techniques just don't work for a number of reasons and the fact that you don't train for such a circumstance where you can't get someone to ground isn't training for the 'real world'.

So your goal with Kung Fu isn't to knock someone out, or incapacitate them?

Incapacitate, deter, control, destroy....whatever is necessary. The difference being that I don't purely train to do all of the above via one method.

I can see that we've came to impasse, which is fine, and I'm fully convinced now that you're not qualified to write off the entire family of martial arts that my style belongs to, so for now at least, I'm going to take a step back from this thread.

Train well.

 

[Hanzou]

They don't need to be far superior than yourself in every aspect of grappling. Sometimes techniques just don't work for a number of reasons and the fact that you don't train for such a circumstance where you can't get someone to ground isn't training for the 'real world'.

That isn't a fact, and if you can't get someone to the ground you're doing something wrong, or the other guy is simply better than you.

Incapacitate, deter, control, destroy....whatever is necessary. The difference being that I don't purely train to do all of the above via one method.

Again, grappling isn't one method. Grappling encompasses a huge variety of methods.

I can see that we've came to impasse, which is fine, and I'm fully convinced now that you're not qualified to write off the entire family of martial arts that my style belongs to, so for now at least, I'm going to take a step back from this thread.

I don't need to write off CMA. The large amounts of evidence shown in this thread does that all on its own.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Ok, tough guy.

I'm out.

 

[ballen0351]

@Ballen,

When I say "take someone to the ground" I'm not talking about always pulling guard, or laying on top of someone. I'm talking about getting someone to hit the ground. Once someone has hit the ground, that is when I determine what to do next. If he is no longer a threat, I'll leave. If I need to do some more work, then I'll do that.

Your changing your answers now. You have said over and over again your goal is it take them down and choke them out. Which is just a terrible idea for several reasons

in short, my goal isn't to stand there and brawl with someone. My goal is to throw someone down and either knock them out from the throws impact, or control them on the ground.

Good luck. Do you train doing your throws in street clothes on street surfaces against attackers not following the rules? I train judo myself and there's a huge difference between class and real life.

 

[MJS]

Its foolish to use my strongest skills in an attack? Okay....

Yup, that's what I said...it's foolish....foolish to assume that going to the ground in every situation, is the best option.

They're also known for backing up their claims, and putting their money where their mouths are.

As are other arts as well. But thanks for avoiding my question though.

No one was claiming that. The very nature of mixed martial arts kind of contradicts that notion.

No one was saying what? That BJJ is the best? LOL...I think you should read some of your own posts as that is certainly the impression that YOU give.

No one was claiming that either.

Well, as I just said, it seems that you think that BJJ is the only quality art out there. While this may not have been your intent, looking at your posts, its the impression that you give.

 

[MJS]

Ok, tough guy.

I'm out.

I was going to reply to a few more of his posts, but I'd rather not continue to bang my head against the wall. LOL! FWIW, I'm in agreement with the points you've been making.

 

[Hanzou]

Your changing your answers now. You have said over and over again your goal is it take them down and choke them out. Which is just a terrible idea for several reasons.

I do believe that I said my goal is to get them to the ground and control them once they're there. If that means choking them out, pinning them down, or kicking them in the face, that's what I'm going to do. Throwing or knocking someone to the ground is far more efficient than trying to beat them into the ground using strikes. See that video of the cop brawling with that thug for reference. A simple throw into control (lock/pin from standing position) would have ended that confrontation right then and there.

Good luck. Do you train doing your throws in street clothes on street surfaces against attackers not following the rules? I train judo myself and there's a huge difference between class and real life.

We train in gi and no gi for both throws and grappling. Throwing someone onto a street surface while training is unnecessary, and a pretty huge liability for the school. However, I wouldn't be surprised if some people tried it outside of school to test their ukemi.

 

[Hanzou]

Great video about separating realism from the fantasy in the martial arts;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oy4TwtoDs50#t=468

 

[Kframe]

I don't understand why we are continuing to "debate" with this person. He I trying to get members here riled up and in a frenzy to defend their chosen TMA. Honestly at this point he is not going to change his mind, nor we going to change ours. Most of us have provided more then enough insight for any wandering Newbies whom may show up looking for insights on mma vs tma.

So far I think the most valuable thing is not to get into fights. I don't honestly see my self getting into a fight. I don't go to bars, I don't go to sporting events.(that's what ppv is for). Honestly the only time I plan on fighting is when I decide to test my self in the cage. That will likely be the final confrontation I have with anyone.

Hanzou, what stand up do you do? Bjj is not the answer for a lot of situations. 100% of all altercations start standing. Most quality stand up arts will teach you good foot work and evasion, which is what you need on the street. Especially when trying to get away from multiple attackers. BJJ and multiple attackers simply do not mix well.

Lastly if your going to tout bjj/mma as the end all be all of street altercation survival I have to point out the spectacular failure bjj was in situation regarding Miguel Falco. Fight started on the feet, and yet at no point was his Black belt in BJJ of any use to him.

You have not convinced anyone. Most here know that rudimentary ground grappling skill is required. Most here have it, or have access to it.

Honestly your continued hostility towards tma and striking arts in general is the kind of thing that turns non martial artists and non mixed martial artists off to mma/bjj. The ego and need to dominate everything, the hatred for all things traditional unless its muay thai then that's ok..

Just because some arts don't compete doesn't mean they cant defend themselves. I need not look any further then my own father. Many many street altercations, most involving multiple attackers. He always came out on top, thanks to a solid foundation and application of TKD basics. Not sport Taedo, but the combative, traditional TKD my father did. I still marvel to day about it. He loves the "range" tkd gives him, but all his fights and all his skills are geared towards close range survival. I love sparring with him.

He is in my eyes, THE example of what a TMA should produce. Sadly his teacher and that school no longer exist and with the continued dilution TKD It nolonger resembles the combative art my father practices. I have yet to meet a TKD that moves in a similar way, using similar stances and defenses. Though I know he cross trained in HKD so that explains his fascination with joint locks and grappling..

Its to bad, this modern MMA generation will have fewer and fewer chances to meet real quality combative TMA. So many Mcdojo and sportive schools out there teaching diluted skills.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you go to the ground, you lose your "mobility". IMO, hit and run is the best strategy to be used in any street situation. Not only you may have to run away from your opponent's flying bullets, you may have to run away from fat cops too.

You can take your opponent down but you can still maintain your "mobility" and you don't need to go to the ground.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzA1MjQ1OTAw.html

If you have to use finish move, you can use "follow on strike" and still maintain your "mobility".

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, what stand up do you do? Bjj is not the answer for a lot of situations. 100% of all altercations start standing. Most quality stand up arts will teach you good foot work and evasion, which is what you need on the street. Especially when trying to get away from multiple attackers. BJJ and multiple attackers simply do not mix well.

If your goal is get away from multiple attackers, I recommend studying the ancient art of track and field.

Lastly if your going to tout bjj/mma as the end all be all of street altercation survival I have to point out the spectacular failure bjj was in situation regarding Miguel Falco. Fight started on the feet, and yet at no point was his Black belt in BJJ of any use to him.

That wasn't a failure of Bjj. That was a failure of Miguel Falcoa to not be a douchebag and not slap women around when said woman has several friends with baseball bats waiting for him outside. Falcoa got what he deserved. I hope he enjoys the unemployment line.

Just because some arts don't compete doesn't mean they cant defend themselves.

It goes beyond simply that. People who do compete don't go to the majority of TMAs because you can't use it in a fighting situation. Good luck trying to perform a middle or upper block, or a reverse punch while someone is jabbing you in the face.

 

[Kframe]

I have, you are wrong. Do you have proof they don't work in a fightint situation.

 

[Koshiki]

He is in my eyes, THE example of what a TMA should produce. Sadly his teacher and that school no longer exist and with the continued dilution TKD It nolonger resembles the combative art my father practices. I have yet to meet a TKD that moves in a similar way, using similar stances and defenses. Though I know he cross trained in HKD so that explains his fascination with joint locks and grappling..

Its to bad, this modern MMA generation will have fewer and fewer chances to meet real quality combative TMA. So many Mcdojo and sportive schools out there teaching diluted skills.

I have this same issue. My school teaches, primarily, old school taekwondo. A few years into my training, I and a student I was coming up through with found out that, when mingling with other TKD schools, we had nothing in common, and that we didn't really like Taekwondo, actually. I really don't. Not to offend any TKD practitioners, but generally speaking, TKD is quite possibly my least favourite martial art. Confusingly, it is also my personal favourite, as done in my school. (Albeit with a healthy CMA influence and a bunch of locks and throws mixed in.)

As the Sensei of my Taekwondo school once said, as we watched another school, with whom we are friends. "Wow, sometimes I realize how much I really don't like Taekwondo."

 

[MJS]

I have, you are wrong. Do you have proof they don't work in a fightint situation.

Ohh...careful there...you know what is going to come next.....something along the lines of, "Well, just look at the UFC. Lots of examples of TMAs not working." LOL! Of course, the fact of the matter is, there are folks out there, who have used their art with success, in the real world.

 

[Hanzou]

I have, you are wrong. Do you have proof they don't work in a fightint situation.

Yeah, no competitive fighters use them. That proves that they don't work in fights. If they don't work in a controlled environment with rules, how can they work in an uncontrolled environment without rules?

 

[MJS]

Yeah, no competitive fighters use them. That proves that they don't work in fights. If they don't work in a controlled environment with rules, how can they work in an uncontrolled environment without rules?

:bs:

 

[Dirty Dog]

People who do compete don't go to the majority of TMAs because you can't use it in a fighting situation. Good luck trying to perform a middle or upper block, or a reverse punch while someone is jabbing you in the face.

I think this may well be the single most completely incorrect thing I've seen written in a long long time.


In short:
TMA does not mean not competing. TMA skills can and are used in fighting situations. I have and I do.

Every single thing you've said here is wrong.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have this same issue. My school teaches, primarily, old school taekwondo. A few years into my training, I and a student I was coming up through with found out that, when mingling with other TKD schools, we had nothing in common, and that we didn't really like Taekwondo, actually. I really don't. Not to offend any TKD practitioners, but generally speaking, TKD is quite possibly my least favourite martial art. Confusingly, it is also my personal favourite, as done in my school. (Albeit with a healthy CMA influence and a bunch of locks and throws mixed in.)

As the Sensei of my Taekwondo school once said, as we watched another school, with whom we are friends. "Wow, sometimes I realize how much I really don't like Taekwondo."

There is no need for locks and throws to be "mixed in" to TKD. Such techniques have been a part of TKD from the very beginning. If you're training in TKD and not being taught these techniques, the lack is in the teacher, not the art.

 

[Hanzou]

I think this may well be the single most completely incorrect thing I've seen written in a long long time.


In short:
TMA does not mean not competing. TMA skills can and are used in fighting situations. I have and I do.

Every single thing you've said here is wrong.

Nonsense. Sure, you can take bits and pieces from old school arts, but the majority of those old styles can't be used because they're antiquated. You see any fighter in the ring using a horse stance? You think you're ever going to see someone in the street using a horse stance on the street?